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And I hope people KEEP bringing it up until Paizo finally gives us some guidance on how to fill the giant gaping void in the rules.That Razing trait going to bring up the "But Strike says you can only attack creatures!" nonsense again.Again? It never left...
The way to handle the Razing trait in practice is, IMO, "Is it something that was designed to resist damage? If yes, then it has stats for that sort of thing, but if not then it just breaks." The Dorn-Dergar is a giant metal weight at the end of a chain to generate torque, it should break things you're not even intending to break with it- if you use in it a public market everybody's stalls are going to get wrecked.
Like the Dorn-Dergar et. al are good at breaking down doors, walls, shields, that sort of thing. There's really no need for rules for "can you break the table/window/chair/priceless vase" other than "yes, yes you can."
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FWIW I genuinely hope that the Highhelm book or Sky King's Fate has an archetype for "Darting Viper" or "Dorn-Dergar Master" or something similar for people who want to specialize in this s̶i̶l̶l̶y̶ incredible weapon. There's precedent both for "this kind of archetype" existing in PF2, and also for that sort of thing having feat support in PF1.
Is there a description of that new Orc gun? I’m VERY tempted to have an Gunslinger from the Deadshot Lands with one.
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Is there a description of that new Orc gun? I’m VERY tempted to have an Gunslinger from the Deadshot Lands with one.
The Barricade Buster?
"Developed by a half orc inventor from Alkenstar who brough the technology north to battle the Whipsering Tyrant alongside the ord hordes of Belkzen, the barricade buster deatures eight barrels fixed around a central pivot attached to a handle and firing mechanism. A barricade buster fires spheres of metal with extreme velocity and very little accuracy"
Its literally a hand cranked gatling gun.
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Is there a description of that new Orc gun? I’m VERY tempted to have an Gunslinger from the Deadshot Lands with one.The Barricade Buster?
"Developed by a half orc inventor from Alkenstar who brough the technology north to battle the Whipsering Tyrant alongside the ord hordes of Belkzen, the barricade buster deatures eight barrels fixed around a central pivot attached to a handle and firing mechanism. A barricade buster fires spheres of metal with extreme velocity and very little accuracy"
Its literally a hand cranked gatling gun.
Yep, a minigun for orcs.
The Nodachi is interesting, its basically an advanced Naginata, with a double size increase of deadly-- it also has the bracing trait which adds two damage (precise) for every damage die on it when you execute a readied strike. I keep going back and forth on how much of a focus Bracing it can be, but it's a generally GOOD weapon.
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Bracing feels like it'll be really good in dungeons. Either advance and attack with it down the hallway or stand firm and let the squishies hide behind you while you ready for the charge. Intelligent enemies will probably learn to avoid you, but not all enemies are intelligent or have that option.
Actually now that you mention it "it's round one and I'm gonna let them run up to me instead of wasting my actions running up to them" is a really good way to use this for a lot of foes.
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Bracing feels like it'll be really good in dungeons. Either advance and attack with it down the hallway or stand firm and let the squishies hide behind you while you ready for the charge. Intelligent enemies will probably learn to avoid you, but not all enemies are intelligent or have that option.Actually now that you mention it "it's round one and I'm gonna let them run up to me instead of wasting my actions running up to them" is a really good way to use this for a lot of foes.
We do this a lot. Works well if you have more ranged options than the enemy group.
And I hope people KEEP bringing it up until Paizo finally gives us some guidance on how to fill the giant gaping void in the rules.That Razing trait going to bring up the "But Strike says you can only attack creatures!" nonsense again.Again? It never left...The way to handle the Razing trait in practice is, IMO, "Is it something that was designed to resist damage? If yes, then it has stats for that sort of thing, but if not then it just breaks." The Dorn-Dergar is a giant metal weight at the end of a chain to generate torque, it should break things you're not even intending to break with it- if you use in it a public market everybody's stalls are going to get wrecked.
Like the Dorn-Dergar et. al are good at breaking down doors, walls, shields, that sort of thing. There's really no need for rules for "can you break the table/window/chair/priceless vase" other than "yes, yes you can."
In my games; I usually adjudicate things that are meant to take punishment by giving the hp and hardness, and moat other things as a skill or attack roll; so like, if you want to destroy a barricade, you gotta defeat it's HP, but an overturned table will break under a successful check; I normally use athletics for melee smashing, crafting for using explosives and demolishion, and attack rolls for using a ranged approach. I also use crafting for demolition as an exploration tactic; like strapping bombs onto the supports of a building to take it down
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Is there a description of that new Orc gun? I’m VERY tempted to have an Gunslinger from the Deadshot Lands with one.The Barricade Buster?
"Developed by a half orc inventor from Alkenstar who brough the technology north to battle the Whipsering Tyrant alongside the ord hordes of Belkzen, the barricade buster deatures eight barrels fixed around a central pivot attached to a handle and firing mechanism. A barricade buster fires spheres of metal with extreme velocity and very little accuracy"
Its literally a hand cranked gatling gun.
This one's for the boyz who like the dakka dakka.
After thinking a bit, I think I like the Falcata most for a sword and board fighter. It is not only an iconic look, but having a shield is also a good way of being able to stay at 5ft melee without risking yourself much. Shield feats + Knockdown would give you really good offense with the attack + AoO, CC and good defense (more AC, shield block, better reflexes and no movement based reactions is a lot of stuff).
Besides, I always wanted to try a Disarming Block + Aggresive Block (and Flinging Shove) + Shove Down build. Still having good damage when going for something like that seems really good.
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Is there a description of that new Orc gun? I’m VERY tempted to have an Gunslinger from the Deadshot Lands with one.The Barricade Buster?
"Developed by a half orc inventor from Alkenstar who brough the technology north to battle the Whipsering Tyrant alongside the ord hordes of Belkzen, the barricade buster deatures eight barrels fixed around a central pivot attached to a handle and firing mechanism. A barricade buster fires spheres of metal with extreme velocity and very little accuracy"
Its literally a hand cranked gatling gun.
That description does not coincide with the lore.
According to lore, only level 0 simple and martial weapons can be a weapon invention.
You can craft stuff outside the innovation class feature.
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Is there a description of that new Orc gun? I’m VERY tempted to have an Gunslinger from the Deadshot Lands with one.The Barricade Buster?
"Developed by a half orc inventor from Alkenstar who brough the technology north to battle the Whipsering Tyrant alongside the ord hordes of Belkzen, the barricade buster deatures eight barrels fixed around a central pivot attached to a handle and firing mechanism. A barricade buster fires spheres of metal with extreme velocity and very little accuracy"
Its literally a hand cranked gatling gun.
That description does not coincide with the lore.
According to lore, only level 0 simple and martial weapons can be a weapon invention.
It didn't say Inventor [capital I] bit inventor [lower case i]: secondly, an NPC Inventor isn't limited by PC rules, so even if they where talking about an Inventor, they can pretty much do whatever the person that makes them wants them to do.
Then you run into the issue that if it WAS an Weapon Innovation, no one other than the creator can get proficiency in it so that's means what we have can't be that...
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The Inventor does need a way to iterate on an item that is not a level 0 simple or martial weapon though. Probably not at first level, but that should be possible.
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The Inventor does need a way to iterate on an item that is not a level 0 simple or martial weapon though. Probably not at first level, but that should be possible.It would have been an interesting option for a level 6 feat for weapon inventor to choose an advanced weapon as their innovation and give them proficiency in it.
Hell yeah, frame it as a literal upgrade. Flavour and mechanics in one package, you love to see it.
It would certainly work, as the archer archetype proves advanced weapons aren't exclusive to classes with the fighter progression. Still weird that this isn't a base option if you are trained in one...
access to advanced weapons should be more straight forward in general. Them being gated by fighter and/or ancestry makes access if you want it difficult and convoluted. Advanced weapon training could have been a standard martial feat at 6th level across the board.
The ancestry feats say to treat an advanced weapon as martial or a martial weapon as simple "[f]or the purpose of determining your proficiency" which is sadly no help for things like the weapon inventor. There should especially be a way for a weapon inventor to iterate on their people's advanced weapons. Like a Conrasu should have an easier time iterating on the Taw Launcher, a Gnome should have an easier time iterating on the Flickmace, etc.
At least the Hook Sword is an easier sell for Unconventional Weaponry than something like the Bladed Hoop or Fire Poi.
At least the Hook Sword is an easier sell for Unconventional Weaponry than something like the Bladed Hoop or Fire Poi.
Yes, it even lists Tian Xia as having access.
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access to advanced weapons should be more straight forward in general. Them being gated by fighter and/or ancestry makes access if you want it difficult and convoluted. Advanced weapon training could have been a standard martial feat at 6th level across the board.The Inventor does need a way to iterate on an item that is not a level 0 simple or martial weapon though. Probably not at first level, but that should be possible.It would have been an interesting option for a level 6 feat for weapon inventor to choose an advanced weapon as their innovation and give them proficiency in it.Hell yeah, frame it as a literal upgrade. Flavour and mechanics in one package, you love to see it.
It would certainly work, as the archer archetype proves advanced weapons aren't exclusive to classes with the fighter progression. Still weird that this isn't a base option if you are trained in one...
By every god and and their MOTHER do I feel this pain...I have so many concepts I wanna use the Broadspear for, that don't involve being from Jalmeray...
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Advanced Weapons not having an easy way to get scaling proficiency feels like a relic out of the 3.5 days. I really dislike it.
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Eh, in 3.5 and PF1 anyone could get an advanced (then exotic) weapon for a single feat. It didn't even have a requirement so even wizards with their janky horrible proficiency could pick up a spiked chain or bastard sword at a manageable cost.
I really dislike how hard it is to just pick up a weapon in PF2. While I like the idea of exploring tradition and ancestral history, I dislike the concept of culture-locked armaments, or of the idea that appropriating that culture is literally a special ability humans have (to the point where it's easier for them to learn to wield weapons from other cultures than pick up something local).
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A general feat that gives you martial scaling on a single advanced weapon (or simple scaling on a single martial weapon) would be balanced with the existing ancestry feats. "Should cost, but not cost a class feat" is definitely the power budget of an advanced weapon, the Fighter feat is way too big of a price to pay.
I really dislike how hard it is to just pick up a weapon in PF2. While I like the idea of exploring tradition and ancestral history, I dislike the concept of culture-locked armaments, or of the idea that appropriating that culture is literally a special ability humans have (to the point where it's easier for them to learn to wield weapons from other cultures than pick up something local).
Yeah I really hate the design on Unconventional Weaponry. It would be better if it gave access to all advanced weapons that don't have an ancestry tag on them. Would be much clearer what it actually does in terms of katanas and such while also not having the bizarre cultural appropriation thing.
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Eh, in 3.5 and PF1 anyone could get an advanced (then exotic) weapon for a single feat. It didn't even have a requirement so even wizards with their janky horrible proficiency could pick up a spiked chain or bastard sword at a manageable cost.
I really dislike how hard it is to just pick up a weapon in PF2. While I like the idea of exploring tradition and ancestral history, I dislike the concept of culture-locked armaments, or of the idea that appropriating that culture is literally a special ability humans have (to the point where it's easier for them to learn to wield weapons from other cultures than pick up something local).
YES! This bugs me too! And from the previews, it looks like it's still there!
Consider the earthbreaker: it's the closest you can come to a historically accurate warhammer without being adopted by a gnome, but it has such strong cultural associations with the Shoanti that I'd feel awkward having a character use one if they didn't have Shoanti heritage. Same with some of the new armors. If I'm playing an elf druid who wants to wear armor made of the bones of animals I've personally hunted to honor them and Ketephys, the god of the hunt, the only thing that's close is the niyaháat, which means I'd be appropriating it from the Erutaki.
A general feat that gives you martial scaling on a single advanced weapon (or simple scaling on a single martial weapon) would be balanced with the existing ancestry feats. "Should cost, but not cost a class feat" is definitely the power budget of an advanced weapon, the Fighter feat is way too big of a price to pay.
My homebrew has upgrades to the weapon and armor training feats that more or less do similar things to make it easy to pick up new weapons and armor types. They dont let you exceed the normal proficiencies of your class, but it makes it easier to expand your weapons without archetyping
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Advanced Weapons should not be better but more complex. And then, only gated behind a General feat with scaling proficiency. The whole Simple < Martial < Advanced causes issue, as it pushes everyone to grab an Advanced Weapon.
The difference between the 3 groups should be made smaller.
Simple Weapons should be accessible to everyone (including Wizards) and be mostly there for characters who don't care about weapons.
Martial Weapons should be accessible through a General Feat (with Scaling Proficiency) and should be the weapons of choice of anyone interested by smashing things. There should be at most a damage die of difference with Simple Weapons (so the feats that increase a Simple Weapon die by one would make a good Martial Weapon out of it).
Advanced Weapons should be accessible through a General Feat (with Scaling Proficiency) if you have Martial Weapon Proficiency and should be roughly equal to Martial Weapons but more complex. The difference of power should be extremely low (like a Fatal/Deadly die size or a weird trait you can't use without investment) so they wouldn't be a must have for most martials. They would mostly be there to say: "This weapon is complex, don't take it unless you know what you're doing.".
I hear you but also, the new barricade buster in TV is awesome and I want it to stay as good as it is. Some seem to follow your suggested trend like the daikyu and repeating crossbow are fairly comparable to standard martial bows. There's probably a few different designers with different ideas for advanced weapons. Some are conservative like the daikyu. And some are the barricade buster.
But how can you create a weapon that is both strictly better, easy to access and not a no-brainer that everyone takes over the more classical options?
In my opinion, weapons like the barricade buster (I haven't looked at it but it seems awesome from what I read) should be only accessible to Inventor. The class could really fit the niche of "weird weapon user".
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two feat in fighter dedication doesn't give full scaling martial weapon why should one general feat do that
the mistake was the existence of general feat not that they didn't give scaling proficiency
Fighter dedication sucks. It's an outlier in how bad it is. Not a standard you should be holding up to other thing.
But how can you create a weapon that is both strictly better, easy to access and not a no-brainer that everyone takes over the more classical options?
If the differences are small enough, the feat cost can be considered prohibitive on its own.
Like... literally right now. Advanced weapons aren't particularly expensive to pick up if you really want one, a human can grab nearly any of them for a single ancestry feat, ancestry feats (which are also accessible via adoption) make them only slightly more expensive for other classes, but we still don't see them being all that ubiquitous (other than the flickmace, which was an outlier, and even then not particularly omniprevalent).
A comparable option using the rarer general feat resource doesn't seem particularly out of line with what already exists.
In my opinion, weapons like the barricade buster (I haven't looked at it but it seems awesome from what I read) should be only accessible to Inventor. The class could really fit the niche of "weird weapon user".
Ironic then that the Inventor is the only class in the game literally barred from using weird advanced weaponry.
If the differences are small enough, the feat cost can be considered prohibitive on its own.
Like... literally right now.
The complaints were that "right now" it is not easy to grab. It asks for specific Ancestries that not everyone wants to play or waiting for level 5 with Adopted Ancestry which is a lot to wait without one's weapon of choice.
On top of it, Advanced Weapons that are not linked to any culture can only be grabbed by a single class. That's even harder to get.If it was moved to an Ancestry feat that anyone can take, I'm pretty sure Advanced Weapons would be everywhere.
Ironic then that the Inventor is the only class in the game literally barred from using weird advanced weaponry.
Yeah, I just don't get it.
I don't think general feats should give you scaling proficiency. I do think there should be an archetype for something like "weapon master" that lets you peg an advanced weapon to your martial proficiency.
Like we have a few of those (the Aldori one, Drow Shootist, etc.) but it's probably not possible for a bespoke option for every interesting advanced weapon but a general one would suffice.
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A general feat is a steeper cost than a level 1 ancestry feat. I think it would have been fine if there were 2 general feats, one similar to the current one to meet up martial weapon requirements for feats or archetypes (something like "you are trained in all martial weapons, if you are expert in martial weapons, you become trained in all advanced weapons from a single weapon group") and another one that makes you treat a single martial weapon as simple for proficiency sake or an advanced one as martial if you have martial proficiency.