Sure. I’m up to give it a go and see how I like it. I had fun in Brainiac’s DCC game…
I was sure d20PFSRD and co had a S+W srd but I can no longer find it.
Hadn’t looked at the S+W rules for a long time. Kinda brings back a lot of ADnD vibes. Monks are…powerful though. Druids are cool. Assassins too. I still don’t think they answer their own question “why would someone play a Fighter or Cleric” on page 25…
Needless to say, I’d still absolutely play a fighter. But the thought of old style multiclassing as an Elf or Half-elf is enticing.
Sure I would like to try a S+W game. Definitely want to play a magic user :)
Aaaaand now just realising there might be a difference between the “Core Rules” and the “Complete Rules”…
Welcome back Helaman, OSW and Eric - good to 'see' you again :)
I still don’t think they answer their own question “why would someone play a Fighter or Cleric” on page 25…
Well Fighters have this neat thing: 'For Fighters only, high strength gives bonuses to hit and to inflict damage'
And I also like their Parry ability.Clerics have Spells, so that is strong on its own.
And they can use any armor and shields, which is pretty good.
Thanks for the invite to contribute chief.
Regards the system - as OSW touched on is it the Complete version of S&W we'd be looking at specifically?
Good to have you on board Black Dow!
Yep, the plan is to use the Complete version. I actually backed the S&W Complete Revised kickstarter - my hardcopy should be arriving any time now, but I already have the PDF.
I am considering keeping the tweaks to a minimum, so I can get a better idea of how the system actually works in play ‘out of the box’ so to speak. But off the top of my head, there are two/three things I am looking into.
1. Ability generation method (3d6 down the line is all good and well, since the stat modifiers are not that relevant in S&W, but…. I am not a fan of ending up with a character with full on crappy scores), so similarly to the beginning of this thread when we were discussing AD&D2e, I am now mulling over the ability scores generation method to use in S&W (please don’t roll anything yet:P) - I am inclined to:
- 3d6 rolled six times, then assigned at will to the Stats;
- Allowing (one?) re-roll if (if total modifiers are <0 or No score above or enquanto to 14) or something along those lines.
2. Skills (I don’t need hardcore skills like PF or D&D, but I like having a framework of sorts to adjudicate some stuff - so I am planning on using a 1d6 approach, based on what you can find in Smugzoid’s video.
3. Thieves’ Skills are the third, but I am not yet sure I want to touch it. Again, I lthink I like Smugzoid’s approach, but need to take a second look at it.
As usual, let me know your thoughts if any.
1: Sure, a little bit of padding to avoid a completely non-competent character. On board.
2. I actually watched the whole thing. I particularly liked the section about 9 minutes in where he shows some Jorune referee’s thoughts and the associated comments from the guy in the video as to when you *actually* need to have someone make a skill check….Very compelling.
So the breakdown is like this:
Relevant attribute = chance
17-18 = 3/6 chance of success
13-16 = 2/6 chance of success
5-12 = 1/6 chance of success
1-4 = no chance
And the illustration of how the granular approach of 5e looks better to the players, but actually a) isn’t and b) only improves some skills, not skill attributes as in the presented system was an eye opener. I did feel he didn’t count the availability of magic items/spells which in later games were much more conversant with skills, but that aside, still pretty good breakdown of the systems. As an aside, it made me really understand the approach of my own mind where I think something means something in a white room/theorycraft sense, but am often..completely…misled…by….dammit….ummm…other peop….umm….aliens from oute…..umm…*sigh*…..just plain being a bit dumb. On board.
3. Sure I like that approach, and using the d6 for all skills makes sense but the d% for some thief skills was/is pretty iconic, and having the uber high percentages for some of those skills is kinda necessary to a) move the game forward and b) not die just climbing. Plus the fact that some of the skills back in the day were percentages and some a d6 was super archaic. Full disclosure: looking at playing a monk, but more for the combat aesthetic. Still, it makes me biased given monks use thief skills, so I humbly say: On board with your pending decision.
Thanks for the feedback OSW.
I only recently came across Smugzoid's Youtube channel - he definitely has interesting analysis topics. And even though White Box is not S&W Complete, I believe they are close enough for most of his considerations to apply. He clearly has his own preferences, but the video are usually done from a comparative perspective, so the final decision on whether, for example, one wants to use 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 or d20 for skills, is left up to the viewer.
And yeah, for the sake of simplicity I may just leave the thieving skills untouched for now. And we can look at the 'optional' d6 option later on. Lets hear if anyone else feels strongly one way or another. But I do agree the % option has a more nostalgic feel to it :)
Iam OK with the ability generation method you suggest, but I don't think playing around with skills is very productive. Just make a judgement call and move on :)
In reality, the DM can just use the d6 skills for his/her own reference, making it invisible to the players.
Personally, I feel like the fastest method is indeed the judgment call in many cases, but I always like to have some sort of framework I can revert to, also to lend it some consistency. So that my judgment call is not one thing today, and a different one tomorrow for situations which may be similar.
Another thing Smugzoid introduces (I believe in that same video), is the possibility of increasing your chances of success at 3rd, 6th and 9th level.
So, picking up on what OSW posted:
So the breakdown is like this:
Relevant attribute = chance
17-18 = 3/6 chance of success
13-16 = 2/6 chance of success
5-12 = 1/6 chance of success
1-4 = no chance
At levels 3, 6 and 9 you can increase your chances of success (keyed to either Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis or Cha) by one point. Though never past 5/6. I think it may be nice, because it gives a palpable sense of progression?
In any case, many situations do not call for any dice rolls at all. This is only in case they do.
I thought Eric was suggesting that you just make a judgment call about what skill system to use rather than asking for feedback, *not* make a judgment call every time skill interactions might come up in the game. Which is probably a good idea, given….I…am….in this thread. ;)
But maybe that isn’t what Eric meant. It does show you that interpretation of the written word can be…tricky.
A little clarification here: I meant to make a judgement call concerning skill use by the players (whether you use a hidden die roll or not), not the system you use for skill interactions. With that I also say if the players describe what their characters are doing that should definitely be a factor!
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Ok. To clarify:
1: OSW was wrong. Again.
2: Eric says make a judgment call when skills come up, which Obermind understood.
3: OSW did not.
4: This is definitely the Complete Rules, not the Core rules.
Any more questions?
Any more questions?
I have a question. Obermind: what is the campaign setting - still thinking of running a Lost Lands game?
All clarified! :)
Any more questions?I have a question. Obermind: what is the campaign setting - still thinking of running a Lost Lands game?
That is correct sir.
Ok, now a roll call - we have:
Helaman
Oceanshieldwolf
Eric Swanson
Black Dow
Lets see if any of the others chip in - I think I would like at least 6 for any 'old school type game'.
Is there somewhere I can find more information on the Lost Lands campaign setting? Going to do a bit of searching…
The World Anvil site for the Lost Lands is pretty good.
I like the fact the setting is not very well known (even if some of their most iconic adventures are), and has tons of amazingly gritty, dark content.
So for my/our reference:
- Character creation
1. Roll 3d6 6 times
2. Assign to stats at will: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis Cha.
3. You can reroll once and keep the new result IF
You do not have at least a 14
or
If your average bonus modifier is lower than 0 (or +1, or +2, lets see how the characters turn out)
(On the fence if these should be before or after racials. Tending towards before)
- Skills (shamelessly stolen from Smugzoid so we can test it)
17-18 = 3/6 chance of success
13-16 = 2/6 chance of success
5-12 = 1/6 chance of success
1-4 = no chance
STR: Athletics, Lifting, Rough wall climbing (not smooth - thief skill only)
DEX: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Walking on ice or an edge, Tying a rope quickly, Lighting a torch quickly
CON: Holding breath, Endurance, Nausea
INT: Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, Religion, Scribing, Reading
WIS: Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival, Nature, Tracking
CHR: Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion
At 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th level you can increase the odds of any one stat skill by 1. For example if your DEX skill started at 1/6, at 3rd level you can make it 2/6. At 6th level you can increase it again or, increase a different stat skill by 1.
These increases do not change your six character stats, it only increases your skill odds.
No STAT skill can be greater than 5/6
Note: Thief and Assassin skills remain RAW
I checked out the World Anvil site, fairly comprehensive. I’ll wait until you give us a little more information to go on for where I might look for character heritage. Vacillating between a monk and flail-wielding fighter. Human, of course.
I do like the variations of the elves, though the the wild elves being the more xenophobic “true elves” and the wood elves being the feral weirdoes is weird - the wild elves who live in the woods aren’t as wild as the wood elves, who are really wild. Gotcha.
Weirdest thing is happening to me - using Chrome I cannot click any of the links on the Paizo site, if they are on the top 'banner'.
Like for example, 'My Account', 'Cart' and 'Help'
Weird as heck.
In the meantime, I have reached out to a couple of others which I think would be a great addition to this discussion (thx for the input OSW). Lets see if we can get some 'critical mass' ;)
Hello! Thanks for the invite, GM. Looked over the thread and it all looks good to me. S&W seems to hew pretty closely to standard AD&D so not a whole lot unique about it as a system, but it will probably still be fun with a good group like what you've gathered here.
Are you ready for us to start rolling stats?
Hey Brainiac, thank you for dropping by. Good to have you on board!
No stats rolling yet, as I want at least six for this one, and haven't heard from Black Dow or Helaman for a while. I will let you know when ;)
Still here GM Obermind, all looks good to me thus far.
It's a pity that S&W (to my knowledge) doesn't have half-orcs as PC option - loved playing Half Orc Cleric/Thieves back in the halcyon days of 1E.
I played Basic D&D and then jumped right onto AD&D2e, so I never got to play an half-orc until... Hmm... 3.5?
Just another mail in the coffin that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that ADnD never had a 2nd edition, and anyone who mentions it has clearly been meddled with. Talk of “kits”, “rogues” and other unmentionable concepts are anathematic to the successful evolution of humans.
Just another mail in the coffin that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that ADnD never had a 2nd edition, and anyone who mentions it has clearly been meddled with. Talk of “kits”, “rogues” and other unmentionable concepts are anathematic to the successful evolution of humans.
I played a LOT of AD&D2e back in the day - don't even know if we played it by the book or not though, but probably not. For someone who had no prior contact with the hobby, apart from the BE portion of BECMI, I can tell you it felt amazing :D
Played its versions of Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, lots and lots of Planescape, Darksun, you name it. It was the peak of my RPG hobbying so to speak, and the time I remember having the most fun playing.
Will post in a day or two… stuff got busy
No worries, no worries.
Just saw the PM. Definitely interested. Good group of players. I'm good with whatever on the rules. As long as it's fair and fun it's all good, and the Lost lands is a great setting.
I've been reading up on Castles & Crusades a bit however, and I like it. Seems to have an old school vibe with more modern take on the mechanics.
Good to have you onboard scranford!
I have also taken a look at C&C and it seems pretty interesting. The only thing that I think threw me off a bit was the scaling of saves or something along those lines - I think I remember feeling it would make magic users impossibly strong at higher levels. I would have to double check. But would love to play in a C&C game, and test the waters.
Okay, I’m definitely in. What rule set do I need to download? I think I saw a post about this S&W being different from that one…
I have the revised edition of S&W, but I think the Complete one that OSW linked a few posts back should be more than enough Helaman.
Let's move along with some character creation then!
On your next post, please:
1. Roll 3d6 6 times
2. Assign to stats at will = Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis Cha.
3. If you do not have at least a 14
or
If your average bonus modifier is lower than 0.
Then you can ask me to roll a new set of 6x3d6 (but you will have to keep the ones I roll :P)
Let us try our hand at it, see where we land and if any further adjustments might be needed.
GO!
Going to go
Str 14
Int 9
Wis 6
Dex 13
Con 12
Cha 10
Human Fighter, I don’t think I can swing a monk with this array… I don’t want to go the same lines as my cleric Sarn Ket in Helaman’s game who was socially silly but still wise, so I’ll try a not very wise human fighter.
Gender:
Actually, it makes more sense to go Str 13 and Dex 14 so I can make use of the Parry ability…
Hey OSW, thanks for stepping forward and being the test subject :)
Monks in S&W are crazy MAD. I mean, they are not because you do not have stat requirements. But a lot of their abilities do stem from having a certain stat at a certain level, which is definitely not easy when you are rolling rolling 6x3d6, and effectively makes them MAD in the end.
I wouldn't want you to feel you cannot play what you want to play though, so what if we can find a middle ground somehow? Maybe that 14 turns into a 15 (you can put it where you prefer, either Dex or Wis), and you play as an aspirant Monk, who has not yet reached the required Zen level to fully master his/her skills?
Would that work for you? (Also perfectly cool if you want to stat with the fighter)
P.S. for all - I think I will remove the 'Pick Locks' and the Traps part in 'Delicate Tasks and Traps' from the list of Thieving Skills the Monk 'gains' when their Dex is 15+. I think those should be Thief only. What do you think?
I’ll stick with the Human Fighter.
On monks: While I wholeheartedly agree that those skills aren’t really in a “traditional martial artist” monk’s wheelhouse, neither is bashing stuff and casting spells a “traditional bard” nor wearing armor (whether wooden or not) a “traditional druid”. Given the monk is super MAD, and kinda niche, if someone wants to make a monk let them have some odd skills. Maybe in fantasy worlds where fantasy bards and fantasy druids exist, fantasy monks are broader than we imagine. I have to admit it makes absolutely no sense for monks to pick locks, but then again, neither does moving silently nor hiding in shadows - slightly more ninja-esque, but not exactly “martial arts”. So maybe the ninja thing *is* germane to the concept, and thus, locks and traps.
On skills, and only because weird things often occur to me and then I can’t unsee them: I don’t Holding breath, Endurance, Nausea should be different “skills” that you can increase your “skill stat” for, they rather look more like a check that you need to make rather than a skill you can train for. Maybe lump them together…
Deception and Persuasion also seem like the same thing, or at least you would likely train for them the same way…
On skills, and only because weird things often occur to me and then I can’t unsee them: I don’t Holding breath, Endurance, Nausea should be different “skills” that you can increase your “skill stat” for, they rather look more like a check that you need to make rather than a skill you can train for. Maybe lump them together…
Deception and Persuasion also seem like the same thing, or at least you would likely train for them the same way…
I don't think these are supposed to be actual separate skills OSW, simply references and examples of the usage for that specific stat.
So Holding breath, Endurance and Nausea would all be based off your CON stat, and not individual skills, thus you roll the d6 with the same chance of success for all of them.
Same approach with Deception and Persuasion - they are not distinct skills, but instead if you want to take actions of that nature, you roll the d6 based on your CHA.
STR: 9
INT: 16
WIS: 9
DEX: 5
CON: 12
CHA: 11
Nice mix there. Going to play a human magic-user.
OldSchoolGM: Have you decided where we will be starting out in the Lost Lands yet?
On skills, and only because weird things often occur to me and then I can’t unsee them: I don’t Holding breath, Endurance, Nausea should be different “skills” that you can increase your “skill stat” for, they rather look more like a check that you need to make rather than a skill you can train for. Maybe lump them together…
Deception and Persuasion also seem like the same thing, or at least you would likely train for them the same way…
I don't think these are supposed to be actual separate skills OSW, simply references and examples of the usage for that specific stat.
So Holding breath, Endurance and Nausea would all be based off your CON stat, and not individual skills, thus you roll the d6 with the same chance of success for all of them.
Same approach with Deception and Persuasion - they are not distinct skills, but instead if you want to take actions of that nature, you roll the d6 based on your CHA.
Oh…ah…well…exactly!
OldSchoolGM: Have you decided where we will be starting out in the Lost Lands yet?
Finally, though, you see ahead of you the distinctive hill upon which the village of Grimmsgate is built. At the top, there is a small cluster of buildings – you can just barely see the half-collapsed roof of the old Temple of Law that was once said to be the pride of the village. Even at this distance, the place looks run down. Although the village is not fortified, the hill is very steep and only one path leads up to the top.
==========
So, we are starting at the village of Grimmsgate, an outpost town on a seldom traveled trail, right at the edge of nowhere :)
The woods surrounding it have become too dangerous for the trappers who once caught animals for fur, and merchants seldom travel the poorly-maintained road because of bandits.
The duke is unwilling to accept responsibility for the village, because the one and only attempt that was ever made to subdue this part of the wilderness, a patrolling troop of knights and soldiers, completely disappeared in the forest without leaving a trace. When the search parties also failed to return, civilization gave up on Grimmsgate and departed.
The village’s half-ruined temple of Law, dilapidated inn, drunken blacksmith, exiled trader and a few fur-trappers are enough to keep the bloody-minded denizens of the dark forest at bay, but nobody really expects the village to still be there in another ten years.
==========
Grimmsgate is part of the Duchy of the Rampart a palatine dukedom, which means that the title is hereditary and that the duke holds his lands directly from the overking. It is a stable and well-guarded realm with a strong sense of chivalry and feudal obligations. But a certain decay is setting in, and strange things lurk in the shadows. The creeping advance of the darkness is subtle and isolated, but very much present. The people of the duchy know in the backs of their minds that the Rampart is declining, but they do not understand why, or how to counter the process.
The tenets of chivalry are on the wane, roadside inns seem just a bit less well kept, and the pleasures of some of the nobility are a bit more jaded than in centuries past. Banquets sport increasingly elaborate dishes carried to the table by poorly fed domestic servants. Heresy in on the rise, and small and secret covens of demon-worshippers have been uncovered in the rural countryside, their cults festering beneath the mask of a cheerful peasantry. The occasional savage murder goes unsolved, leaving people to look over their shoulders when walking alone.
The Duchy is well-settled, although pockets of wilderness are everywhere in between settlements. The southern verge of the Cretians (The Cretian Mountains) is a wild and rugged place, much more sparsely inhabited, and correspondingly more dangerous for those who venture close to these strange peaks. Fewer settlements are along the margins of the Rampart Mountains, but this is an area where mining towns and villages of hill dwarves can be found in the rugged foothills. Patrols are at least occasionally undertaken by actual troops rather than a lone knight or a few volunteer yeomen with billhooks and crossbows.
==========
There are several possible reasons why you could be in town, but some ideas might be: maybe you have been mandated by your church (reasons to be discussed if anyone is part of a religious order), you might be a local, you might have been hired by one of the duke's delegates to re-investigate the area, you might have gotten a deed for a house in the village (how you got the deed? Up to you :D), etc, etc.
So basically we have (roughly):
==N==
W.+.E
==S==
**********
*****************
*************
***************
***************************************
****************************************
********* Cretian Mountains***************
******************************************* G
**************************************
*************************************
============= The King's Road==================
************
*************
*********
**********
*********
Rampart
Mountains
***********
*********
********
*******
**********
********
******
Just decided to go ADOM/Nethack stile there for a second. Hope you will forgive me :D
Thinking maybe a Human Ranger. With his INT, WIS, and CHA. he obviously grew up not interfacing with humans too much. :-)
STR 16
INT 6
WIS 8
DEX 14
CON 11
CHA 5
Not sure what you meant by the average ability modifiers less than zero. S&W doesn't have a standard modifier... so...
Not sure what you meant by the average ability modifiers less than zero. S&W doesn't have a standard modifier... so...
Yeah... I realized that shortly after I posted it - was hoping no one would notice hahaha. We can just assume standard PF1e stat bonuses to adjudicate that one. So as an example, in your case: 3-2-1+2+0-3=-1.
So you could ask for a re-roll from me if you want.
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Thanks for the invite! I have been away from the boards for a while now, so this might be a nice way to get back into gaming. S&W is a great set of old school rules and from what I have read here, you have added some very interesting home rules. "HI" to everyone...nice to 'see' you all again!!
Rolls??