Hi,
i want to build a paladin tank. Since there are almost no ways to actually tank, i thought, why not protect the party by just tripping anything that moves. So the basic idea is, get a weapon with reach and then:
1. Dirty Fighting (to remove the need to have 13INT for combat expertise and +ATT from flanking)
2. Improved Trip (to trip without AoO)
3. Weapon Focus (prereq)
4. Weapon Tricks (to trip/attack adjacent enemies with close sweep/heft bash)
5. Shield Focus (prereq)
6. Shield brace (to improve AC and still using a pole weapon).
7. combat reflexes (more aoo)
8. greater trip (aoo in trips, yay)
also there are a lot of other nice feats that could play into the style (fury's fall, felling smash, Stand Still and many many more.).
The whole thing is quite feat heavy. Now here's the problem: I really like the tempered champion archetype for paladins, which does not only give additional feats but also access to some feats usually reserved for fighters. The only problem: apparently there is not a single weapon with trip and reach that has a deity, fitting a paladin.
Do you have any ideas? Can i somehow get the trip property on a Glaive or something?
You can use any weapon to trip. The trip special feature simply allows you to drop the weapon to avoid being knocked prone if your trip attack fails by 10 or more. So you can trip away with a glaive from the start, with no further investment.
If you’re playing a Paladin that focuses on combat maneuvers, I would strongly recommend you take the Adept Champion feat. It allows you to forgo the bonus on damage rolls and instead gain half that bonus as a bonus on combat maneuver checks against the target of your smite, as a swift action at the start of your turn. Unless you’re building a Dexterity-focused Paladin (in which case you’ll also need the Agile Maneuvers feat), Fury’s Fall won’t benefit you as much as Adept Champion.
A couple more things:
Shield Focus and Shield Brace assume someone will get adjacent to you. You’re incurring an additional -1 or -2 penalty to hit (until you get a mithril shield) on top of the -2 you’re getting from the Choke Up or Haft Bash weapon tricks, though. So you’re taking as much (if not more) of a penalty ALL the time in exchange for an AC bump you’ll get some of the time—if an enemy gets adjacent to you, or against enemies with reach.
The whole point of a reach weapon, however, is to not allow enemies get adjacent to you. So why not get Mobility and Combat Patrol instead, and maximize the attacks of opportunity you get from Combat Reflexes? Between those and your 5-foot step (and the Lunge feat, if you want to take it to the limit), you should rarely have to worry about using a shield.
If you go down that route, Polearm Tricks also becomes largely redundant (with just Quick Brace providing any consistent benefit). With the kind of bonus you’re getting from Adept Champion, I would argue you’re better off taking Improved Disarm (and Improved Sunder, if you ever get Power Attack). By 8th level, you’d be adding a +6 bonus to the bonus you’re already getting for attacking a prone opponent to also, e.g., divest them of their weapon with the AOO your trip provoked. That’s setting up a lot of pain for the next round of combat, considering your opponent (who will likely be limited to a single attack due to drawing or picking up a weapon) will probably provoke trying to get up.
Shield Focus and Shield Brace assume someone will get adjacent to you. You’re incurring an additional -1 or -2 penalty to hit (until you get a mithril shield) on top of the -2 you’re getting from the Choke Up or Haft Bash weapon tricks, though. So you’re taking as much (if not more) of a penalty ALL the time in exchange for an AC bump you’ll get some of the time—if an enemy gets adjacent to you, or against enemies with reach.
The attack penalty from Shield Brace is a nonissue. MWK drops any Buckler or Light Shield to 0 ACP, while a Darkwood Heavy Shield is just 257 GP. And there would be no point to using Choke Up if you have Shield Brace.
I agree with the old saying that "the best defense is a good offense", but it's very optimistic to think you'll not get hit during combat. Ranged attacks are still a thing, your trips can fail, etc etc.
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@St0nemender
That's a lot of feats. Are you getting extra feats from somewhere at lv 2 and 6? The archetype only gives you feats at lv 4 and every 4 levels after that.
@St0nemenderThat's a lot of feats. Are you getting extra feats from somewhere at lv 2 and 6? The archetype only gives you feats at lv 4 and every 4 levels after that.
We are currently at lvl8 and i want to take a human anyway since i like the +1 skillpoint/lvl.
That being said i was considering starting out with 2 levels of Fighter with Drill Seargent archetype, which gets me 2 bonus feats and 1 teamwork feat.
Wonderstell,
I hear you. I just think that in this case it’s less about not getting hit and more about cost versus benefit: how much are you investing—in terms of feats and resources—in mitigating something going wrong, versus doing something really well?
In this case, specifically, I’d argue that defense and offense go hand-in-hand. It’s just active defense (preventing someone from getting to you) than passive defense (shield bonus).
I would prioritize combat reflexes before improved trip. Since you are using a reach weapon many foes will not be able to hit you anyway if you provioke, while being able to make AoOs while flatfooted and more than once a round will improve your area control and defense immediately.
In this case, specifically, I’d argue that defense and offense go hand-in-hand. It’s just active defense (preventing someone from getting to you) than passive defense (shield bonus).
But thats just it: For the investment of just 2 feats i am immidiately getting +3 AC with no drawback (a mithril shield is not that expensive) and potentially up to +8 AC for an highly enchanted shield.
Thats nothing to sneeze on. Also, and i cant stress that enough, it looks badass.
In this case, specifically, I’d argue that defense and offense go hand-in-hand. It’s just active defense (preventing someone from getting to you) than passive defense (shield bonus).But thats just it: For the investment of just 2 feats i am immidiately getting +3 AC with no drawback (a mithril shield is not that expensive) and potentially up to +8 AC for an highly enchanted shield.
Thats nothing to sneeze on. Also, and i cant stress that enough, it looks badass.
All I’m saying if that, by the time you’re looking at +8 from an enchanted shield, you’re probably threatening 20+ feet with your reach weapon. Which of the two is more likely to protect you from most opponents?
On the other hand, I would never dissuade you from something you want for thematic reasons. Rule of cool trumps all!
I think you can get away with just Paladin...
1. Dirty Fighting
1. Combat Reflexes
3. Improved Trip
4. Weapon Focus Longspear
5. Deific Obedience Tsukiyo
7. Great Trip
8. Weapon Trick
9. Diverse Obedience Tsukiyo
At level 14, we grab the Sentinel's 2nd boon:
Banishing Jade (Su) You gain the ability to smite evil once per day as per a paladin of your character level. If you already have the smite evil class feature, this adds to the number of times per day that you can smite evil. When you use your smite evil class feature, you can transform either your weapon or your armor into enchanted jade for 1 minute or until the smite evil effect ends. Your transformed weapon gains the ghost touch special ability. Furthermore, if the target of smite evil is an undead creature, the bonus on damage rolls for the first hit with that weapon increases to 3 points of damage per paladin level you have (including any sentinel levels), and your first attack with that weapon also gains the disruption weapon special ability (DC = 13 + your Charisma modifier). Your transformed armor gains the ghost touch special ability, and if the target of smite evil is an undead creature, the armor grants you a +2 sacred bonus on saving throws against the creature’s spells and effects as well as a +2 sacred bonus to AC against its attacks.
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Two other ways to make a tripping paladin:
1) Dump Dex and put no skill points into Acrobatics
2) this
I have always thought a Sacred Servant Paladin of Erastil for the Growth Domain would be pretty good for a Area Defender Paladin. Swift Action Enlarge, as well as Enlarge Person on your spell list
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I played in a Rise of the Runelords campaign where another player was a trip-focused Stonelord paladin. Used a dwarven dorn-dergar. The real beauty of the Stonelord archetype was that by taking Halting Blow as his 12th-level defensive power, he was able to use that to stop creatures that couldn't be tripped (flying opponents show up a lot by that level). Plus it was harder to acrobatics past him and avoid the AoO thanks to the Bulwark prereq.
Dang. That paladin be trippin'.
Fighter types rely on feats and Brawler has 3 interesting abilities; Brawler's Cunning, Martial Flexibility, and Martial Training.
Yeah, i was considering that too. Brawler would allow me to skip Dirty Fighting entirely, which is nice.
I have always thought a Sacred Servant Paladin of Erastil for the Growth Domain would be pretty good for a Area Defender Paladin. Swift Action Enlarge, as well as Enlarge Person on your spell list
True, but in the end, a ring that allows me to cast Enlarge Person 3 times a day, is quite cheap, and thats really the only benefit i see in that Build. Especially losing the divine bond hurts a lot.
Used a dwarven dorn-dergar. The real beauty of the Stonelord archetype was that by taking Halting Blow as his 12th-level defensive power, he was able to use that to stop creatures that couldn't be tripped (flying opponents show up a lot by that level).
Actually i like the concept a lot, especially the Weapon used. My only problem is that the Stonelord loses some major selling points of the paladin class - losing Smite Evil, Mercys and Divine grace hurts a lot. Also the fact that the defensive powers can only be used in defensive stance is not good on a lot of battle field we encountered so far.
I have always thought a Sacred Servant Paladin of Erastil for the Growth Domain would be pretty good for a Area Defender Paladin. Swift Action Enlarge, as well as Enlarge Person on your spell listTrue, but in the end, a ring that allows me to cast Enlarge Person 3 times a day, is quite cheap, and thats really the only benefit i see in that Build. Especially losing the divine bond hurts a lot.
What item would that be? I cannot find anything nor know of any
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Used a dwarven dorn-dergar. The real beauty of the Stonelord archetype was that by taking Halting Blow as his 12th-level defensive power, he was able to use that to stop creatures that couldn't be tripped (flying opponents show up a lot by that level).Actually i like the concept a lot, especially the Weapon used. My only problem is that the Stonelord loses some major selling points of the paladin class - losing Smite Evil, Mercys and Divine grace hurts a lot.
Yeah, he came at it from the other direction - wanted to play a Stonelord first, then decided the trip mechanics were a good fit. Losing Smite Evil doesn't hurt as much as you might think since its replacement (stonestrike) can be used against any target, not just evil ones, and the lower damage bonus isn't that important when primarily focused on maneuvers. Losing the others (including spells) does hurt.
Also the fact that the defensive powers can only be used in defensive stance is not good on a lot of battle field we encountered so far.
We found that to be a problem as well in wide-open spaces. Our solution (which we never got to implement because we didn't finish the campaign) was to put the stonelord and the gnome wizard on a 10x10 carpet of flying under the gnome's command. Our GM agreed that would count as "a moving vehicle he does not control." (We picked the gnome because that way the gnome could be under a permanent reduce person and when he threw out quickened enlarge person on the stonelord they would be three sizes different and able to both stay on the carpet.)
What item would that be? I cannot find anything nor know of any
There are specific tables that allow you to craft almost anything and determine a price for it: click here
The price for a ring of enlarge person with 3 charges (command activated) would be:
(1 (spell level) * 3 (caster level) * 1800) / (5/3 (number of charges per day)) = 3240 gp
We are currently at lvl8 and i want to take a human anyway since i like the +1 skillpoint/lvl.
That being said i was considering starting out with 2 levels of Fighter with Drill Seargent archetype, which gets me 2 bonus feats and 1 teamwork feat.
Oh, I see. I thought you posted a build progression but it was a list of the feats you want.
I propose the following. Get Fey Foundling at lv 1 to boost the absolute most important class feature to being a tanky paladin, Lay on Hands. LoH is even more important than Smite Evil (imo) so you should definitely capitalize on it.
And there is an issue with Shield Brace (for a heavy shield) in that you won't have a hand free for your LoH, so most Pally builds either use a light shield/buckler or no shield at all. (With a light shield/buckler you can shift the grip on your weapon to get a hand free).
So delay Shield Brace until you can dump a lot of cash into it for better value of your feats.
Finally, with how restricted the bonus feats are from Tempered Champion I'd argue that even as feat starved as you are, it would be better to keep your spellcasting.
Right now you're taking Weapon Focus just for the Haft Bash trick, but it's a really awful trick tbh. Since it lowers your dmg/crit profile and suppresses Reach until your next turn, it's actually worse than just equipping a Gauntlet in addition to your polearm. Especially since it imposes a -2 attack penalty.
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A more slimmed down build would be the following:
Urban, Blood Conduit Bloodrager 1 / (normal) Paladin 7
1 Fey Foundling, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (B), Bloodline Familiar
3 Dirty Fighting
5 Additional Traits (Magical Knack, Fate's Favored)
7 Greater Trip
Divine Favor would at this level provide a +3 bonus to Att/Dmg, and thanks to your familiar it's actually possible to hold the charge on it. Saving you a standard action every combat.
Stock up on Pearls of Power and you'll have it up for every fight.
Urban, Blood Conduit Bloodrager 1 / (normal) Paladin 7
1 Fey Foundling, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (B), Bloodline Familiar
3 Dirty Fighting
5 Additional Traits (Magical Knack, Fate's Favored)
7 Greater Trip
I dont understand some things:
Urban Bloodrager and Blood Conduit Bloodrager are two different archetypes, i cant mix those, can i?
What is bloodline Familiar?
The main reasoning behind Weapon trick was not haft bash, but close sweep.
What item would that be? I cannot find anything nor know of anyThere are specific tables that allow you to craft almost anything and determine a price for it: click here
The price for a ring of enlarge person with 3 charges (command activated) would be:
(1 (spell level) * 3 (caster level) * 1800) / (5/3 (number of charges per day)) = 3240 gp
As you are not taking crafting feats yourself, it is a little presumptuous in my opinion to dismiss the Growth domain because you maybe able to get something specially made.
On top of that, you should not dismiss the swift action, nor the increased caster and therefore greater duration of casting it yourself.
The Growth domain also gives you Bramble Armour, to further punish opponents that got inside your circle of terror, as well as Barkskin to further cement yourself as a Tank
Urban, Blood Conduit Bloodrager 1 / (normal) Paladin 7
1 Fey Foundling, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (B), Bloodline Familiar
3 Dirty Fighting
5 Additional Traits (Magical Knack, Fate's Favored)
7 Greater TripI dont understand some things:
Urban Bloodrager and Blood Conduit Bloodrager are two different archetypes, i cant mix those, can i?
You can, if they don’t alter or replace any of the same class features.
What is bloodline Familiar?
Bloodragers, Sorcerers, and Magi with the Eldritch Scion archetype can trade their 1st level bloodline ability (and gain their Bloodline spells a level later) for a familiar.
Also nobody has mentioned 'Oath Against Savagery', which has some great Area Control abilities. It does give up the beloved Divine Grace, but still worth it overall in my opinion
As you are not taking crafting feats yourself, it is a little presumptuous in my opinion to dismiss the Growth domain because you maybe able to get something specially made.
I see your point. From my point of view, purchasing such a Ring is just a trip to the nearest Mage and paying some Gold between missions. There is absolutely no need to craft that ring myself.
As for the prestige class - the class is definetly nice, but i basicly sacrifice my divine bond for the ability to enlarge myself for 2 rounds per day as a swift action (maybe even 4 rounds later in the game) and adding enlarge person to my spell list. In my view that is not a good trade-off.
Also, i am not a big fan of Erastil. I'd prefer to worship Shelyn. The main problem being that the glaive has no trip...
I dont understand some things:
Urban Bloodrager and Blood Conduit Bloodrager are two different archetypes, i cant mix those, can i?
What is bloodline Familiar?
The main reasoning behind Weapon trick was not haft bash, but close sweep.
Phoebus Alexandros got you covered on the archetype stacking and familiar part.
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Close Sweep is useful, and definitely a reason to take Weapon Trick later on if you so choose. But in the meantime you can simply use a close-range weapon like armor spikes or a gauntlet in addition to your polearm, which allows you to trip nearby foes.
Before you ask, two-weapon fighting penalties wouldn't apply to such an attack.
What Close Sweep effectively does is allow you to apply your polearm enhancement bonus to trip attempts within your reach. If you're using a +2 polearm, then compared to a MWK gauntlet, it's just a +1 attack difference.
Later on, when you've bought a better polearm and/or use Divine Bond to increase the enhancement bonus, the difference grows. But before that it's better to just use a gauntlet. So you could take Weapon Trick at lv 9 instead.
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The main problem being that the glaive has no trip...
It is possible to add the Trip property to a Glaive through a Tactically Adapted Weapon Modification.
It's not a major concern imo as the Trip property is only good... if you're bad at tripping and often fail by 10.
It's not a major concern imo as the Trip property is only good... if you're bad at tripping and often fail by 10.
As far as i understand it, weapon enchantments will only count for trip attempts if the weapon actually has the trip property. Which means i would potentially miss out on a +5 here.
Thje whole glaive thing is only of relevance if i used a tempered champion archetype, as those have to use the sacred weapon of their deity. If i use another archetype i could also go with Guisarme.
No self-respecting Paladin would ever wear a Horse-Chopper. :-)
Divine Favor would at this level provide a +3 bonus to Att/Dmg, and thanks to your familiar it's actually possible to hold the charge on it. Saving you a standard action every combat.
Stock up on Pearls of...
I dont understand what you mean by the familiar holding the charge on the spell. There is nothing in the rules that suggest that a familiar could cast spell on you?
I dont understand what you mean by the familiar holding the charge on the spell. There is nothing in the rules that suggest that a familiar could cast spell on you?
In retrospect, I really should have clarified what I was talking about but the post was getting kinda long.
Holding the charge, part of the 'Touch Spells in Combat' rules. It's when you hold the spell charge on a touch spell so that you can still trigger the spell later.
It can be used for both offensive and beneficial spells.
This is relevant for Familiars as they get the 'Share Spells' ability at 1st level which allows you to cast personal spells on them, as a touch spell. So if you target your familiar with Divine Favor, a personal spell, it is possible to hold the charge on it.
When holding the charge, it can either dissipate or discharge. When it discharges, even accidentally, the target is affected by the spell. So if you hold the charge in your hand and just touch yourself, which at worst is a free action, you'd get the benefit of Divine Favor without using a standard action at the start of combat.
So it's a trick to improve your action economy and wouldn't normally work with a personal spell, but because you have a familiar it's possible.
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The downside is that you must actually hold the charge which requires keeping your hand free. So no opening doors with that hand, and without some specific abilities that means you're not threatening with your polearm before you've gotten a chance to discharge Divine Favor.
...actually Weapon Trick would help there to not lose AoOs at the start of combat by using the Choke Up trick.
As far as i understand it, weapon enchantments will only count for trip attempts if the weapon actually has the trip property. Which means i would potentially miss out on a +5 here.
I think that was the case once, but it's been changed. All weapons apply their enhancement bonus (and other weapon bonuses) to your trip attempts.
Phoebus Alexandros linked a FAQ that links to a Paizo Blog that explains this in detail, but yeah it's hidden quite deep.
Some maneuvers actually need the Trip property to apply the enhancement bonus, Reposition afaik, but not Trip.
No self-respecting Paladin would ever wear a Horse-Chopper. :-)
Those Goblin paladins are gonna get in a smiting mood if they see this!
I dont understand what you mean by the familiar holding the charge on the spell. There is nothing in the rules that suggest that a familiar could cast spell on you?In retrospect, I really should have clarified what I was talking about but the post was getting kinda long.
Holding the charge, part of the 'Touch Spells in Combat' rules. It's when you hold the spell charge on a touch spell so that you can still trigger the spell later.
It can be used for both offensive and beneficial spells.This is relevant for Familiars as they get the 'Share Spells' ability at 1st level which allows you to cast personal spells on them, as a touch spell. So if you target your familiar with Divine Favor, a personal spell, it is possible to hold the charge on it.
When holding the charge, it can either dissipate or discharge. When it discharges, even accidentally, the target is affected by the spell. So if you hold the charge in your hand and just touch yourself, which at worst is a free action, you'd get the benefit of Divine Favor without using a standard action at the start of combat.
So it's a trick to improve your action economy and wouldn't normally work with a personal spell, but because you have a familiar it's possible.
Except the you cannot cast the spell as a touch spell on yourself, only your familiar.
Except the you cannot cast the spell as a touch spell on yourself, only your familiar.
You aren't.
You're casting the spell on your familiar, as a touch spell. The rules say that you 'may' attempt to touch as a free action, not that you must. The spell doesn't cease to function as a touch spell just because you didn't use your free/automatic touch attempt. So you hold the charge.
The spell discharges upon touch, which is different from dissipating. When it discharges (accidentally or not) the spell takes effect if the 'touching creature' is a viable target.
The spell never changes into "target: Familiar only". You remain a viable target.
I follow you, I just read the text a bit different. Different tables, different snacks and whatnot.
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Except the you cannot cast the spell as a touch spell on yourself, only your familiar.You aren't.
You're casting the spell on your familiar, as a touch spell. The rules say that you 'may' attempt to touch as a free action, not that you must. The spell doesn't cease to function as a touch spell just because you didn't use your free/automatic touch attempt. So you hold the charge.
The spell discharges upon touch, which is different from dissipating. When it discharges (accidentally or not) the spell takes effect if the 'touching creature' is a viable target.
The spell never changes into "target: Familiar only". You remain a viable target.
That's some serious linguistic gymnastics.
The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself.
You are using a convoluted chain of reasoning to bypass the words "instead of on himself" in the ability, which are pretty clear.
That's some serious linguistic gymnastics.
Thanks
The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself.You are using a convoluted chain of reasoning to bypass the words "instead of on himself" in the ability, which are pretty clear.
I thought it was straightforward. But yes, that's exactly what I'm doing: I'm using the rules for touch spells to bypass the need to affect your familiar. If your familiar is lv 3 you can even let it hold onto that spell charge as per Deliver Touch Spells.
All for the 'gamebreaking' benefit of doing with a personal spell what you could already do with any other touch spell buff. Like Displacement and Greater Invisibility.
The reason I have zero qualms about using this trick is because I see no reason why a Personal spell should be worse at self buffing than a Touch spell.
The reason I have zero qualms about using this trick is because I see no reason why a Personal spell should be worse at self buffing than a Touch spell.
But it's not. What you try to do here is basicly making a spell that is inteded to be standard action into a swift action and you do that by mincing words.
This is a clear RAI vs RAW situation and personally, i would not allow it as a GM and i would not use it as a player, because its cheesy and not at all what role playing games are about.
For me that is.
I fully aknowledge that everyone can have a different approach to playing this game. I usually develop an image of my character first and then try to make it fit with the game rules, but the image is what counts.
Your effectivity in combat is, after all, not your problem, but the problem of the GM. Because it is not his job to kill you, but to tell a story.
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If you wanna houserule, houserule away!
Your argument isn't correct either RAI or RAW. RAW you are ignoring something written (a Shared Spell affects the familiar instead of the caster) AND adding in text that isn't written (the assertion that touching yourself with a held spell is a "free action at worst").
If your group wants to play this way, go for it! Though I would simplify the houserule to "a personal range spell can be held and brought into effect later as a free action." But it is necessary to acknowledge that it is a houserule and not something that you can insist any GM anywhere has to allow.
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Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.
you can cast it on the familiar. Even if it can hold the charge it can only target itself, as per "The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would." since "The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself" its only valid to touch the familiar with it. Its only a touch spell when touching the familiar with it.
But it's not. What you try to do here is basicly making a spell that is inteded to be standard action into a swift action and you do that by mincing words.
I dunno what to tell you. If you don't want to use it then don't. There's hundreds of "exploits" of rules roaming around, holding a touch spell charge is just another. You might as well get upset that using a cone spell from above gives you a better radius, or that wearing shades makes you immune to demoralize.
(the assertion that touching yourself with a held spell is a "free action at worst").
Yeah, switching the grip on your weapon is a free action. Do that and the spell discharges. Easy peasy.
@Belafon + Name Violation
Feel free to start a rules thread if you'd like, but the only relevant piece of information is whether or not you can hold the charge.