paizo.com Recent Posts in Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damagepaizo.com Recent Posts in Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damage2022-12-03T19:22:13Z2022-12-03T19:22:13ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageCordell Kintnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#282022-12-07T09:27:19Z2022-12-06T15:28:37Z<p>How that feat works is you pick one of the three choices, Axe Shield or Torch. You gain the mark related to that choice. From then on, any time you crit with a weapon listed in that choice, you apply crit specialization.</p>
<p>Example: If you pick Torch, any time you crit with a Bomb or Dagger you would apply the weapon's normal crit specialization. You do not get crit specialization when using a Torch as a weapon.</p>
<p>This doesn't let you change crit effects of a weapon, it just unlocks the ability to get crit effects on more weapons.</p>How that feat works is you pick one of the three choices, Axe Shield or Torch. You gain the mark related to that choice. From then on, any time you crit with a weapon listed in that choice, you apply crit specialization.
Example: If you pick Torch, any time you crit with a Bomb or Dagger you would apply the weapon's normal crit specialization. You do not get crit specialization when using a Torch as a weapon.
This doesn't let you change crit effects of a weapon, it just unlocks the ability...Cordell Kintner2022-12-06T15:28:37ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageRed Griffynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#272022-12-06T15:17:14Z2022-12-06T15:17:14Z<p>On second reading I honestly don't know what the feat is saying, but I'm probably leaning to your interpretation. I can see what you're saying that you 'get a axe/shield/torch symbol' and thus open up crit spec with the listed groups (Axe lets you crit with axes or picks, shield with hammer or shields, torch with bombs or knives). But if that is the feat, that's pretty boring!</p>
<p>It'd be way more interesting to do some swapping of crit specs between weapons to mix and match to taste within certain bounded group limits. </p>
<p>All the L5 'get crit spec' options really aren't that great. Only the Gunslinger and Fighter are getting criticals with any meaningful frequency and they already get these spec options at L5. Even the archer/mauler that can expand the fighter primary group selection give crit spec. So those feats are only useful in two highly specific corner cases</p>
<p>1.) Fighter that goes into Aldori Duelist where you didn't pick swords as your group. However you grab a L5 feat that gives sword group specialization like the hobgoblin weapon discipline. Then you can have aldori swords at max proficiency, get the spec and have another weapon as well.</p>
<p>2.) Fighter that wants to do something similar to the above and grabbing the L13 feat which bumps your proficiency up and you're committed to taking the L5 and L13 feat combination. But this is so late game that it only really comes around for a high level start game. Definitely want a triggerbrand fighter MC Gunslinger Dwarf who is taking those munition feats to get guns/swords/bombs at max proficiency (and I guess specialization) so I can have fun shooting/slashing/throwing bombs.</p>
<p>3.) You're going to face lots of CR-1/-2/-3/-4 monsters and are another type of martial that didn't get crit spec already due to choices or because you don't want to spend a class feat on that)</p>On second reading I honestly don't know what the feat is saying, but I'm probably leaning to your interpretation. I can see what you're saying that you 'get a axe/shield/torch symbol' and thus open up crit spec with the listed groups (Axe lets you crit with axes or picks, shield with hammer or shields, torch with bombs or knives). But if that is the feat, that's pretty boring!
It'd be way more interesting to do some swapping of crit specs between weapons to mix and match to taste within...Red Griffyn2022-12-06T15:17:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageMer_https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#262022-12-06T09:18:35Z2022-12-06T09:18:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">aobst128 wrote:</div><blockquote>Right but what I'm saying is how would you use bomb specialization on a torch? </blockquote><p>You don't, the torch is an improvised juggling club. With some extra fire damage mirroring the fire poi if your GM's generous.aobst128 wrote:Right but what I'm saying is how would you use bomb specialization on a torch?
You don't, the torch is an improvised juggling club. With some extra fire damage mirroring the fire poi if your GM's generous.Mer_2022-12-06T09:18:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageTrondsterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#252022-12-06T08:27:20Z2022-12-06T08:27:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">aobst128 wrote:</div><blockquote>Right but what I'm saying is how would you use bomb specialization on a torch? </blockquote><p>The light splashes 5 feet further, of course! The other way around is even easier - you use the torch to light the fuse! Ahem.
<p>But no, it doesn't make sense.</p>aobst128 wrote:Right but what I'm saying is how would you use bomb specialization on a torch?
The light splashes 5 feet further, of course! The other way around is even easier - you use the torch to light the fuse! Ahem. But no, it doesn't make sense.Trondster2022-12-06T08:27:20ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageaobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#242022-12-06T08:19:13Z2022-12-06T08:19:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gortle wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">aobst128 wrote:</div><blockquote> Torch doesn't have a weapon group or specialization so I would assume that you would pick from the list but bomb makes very little sense as a replacement specialization for torch. How would that even work? </blockquote>It is quite legitimate to have a weapon not belong to a weapon group, and therefore have no weapon specialization ability. </blockquote><p>Right but what I'm saying is how would you use bomb specialization on a torch?Gortle wrote:aobst128 wrote: Torch doesn't have a weapon group or specialization so I would assume that you would pick from the list but bomb makes very little sense as a replacement specialization for torch. How would that even work?
It is quite legitimate to have a weapon not belong to a weapon group, and therefore have no weapon specialization ability. Right but what I'm saying is how would you use bomb specialization on a torch?aobst1282022-12-06T08:19:13ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageSquiggithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#232022-12-06T08:14:30Z2022-12-06T08:14:30Z<p>It's a little confusingly written because Axe and Shield are both weapon groups and the name of the mark, but I agree that you pick a mark and gain the listed option, not that you get to choose crit specs at will. As pointed out, the third option can't really be parsed at all if it's run the other way.</p>It's a little confusingly written because Axe and Shield are both weapon groups and the name of the mark, but I agree that you pick a mark and gain the listed option, not that you get to choose crit specs at will. As pointed out, the third option can't really be parsed at all if it's run the other way.Squiggit2022-12-06T08:14:30ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageGortlehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#222022-12-06T08:00:23Z2022-12-06T08:00:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">aobst128 wrote:</div><blockquote> Torch doesn't have a weapon group or specialization so I would assume that you would pick from the list but bomb makes very little sense as a replacement specialization for torch. How would that even work? </blockquote><p>It is quite legitimate to have a weapon not belong to a weapon group, and therefore have no weapon specialization ability.aobst128 wrote:Torch doesn't have a weapon group or specialization so I would assume that you would pick from the list but bomb makes very little sense as a replacement specialization for torch. How would that even work?
It is quite legitimate to have a weapon not belong to a weapon group, and therefore have no weapon specialization ability.Gortle2022-12-06T08:00:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageaobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#212022-12-06T07:44:32Z2022-12-06T07:44:32Z<p>Torch doesn't have a weapon group or specialization so I would assume that you would pick from the list but bomb makes very little sense as a replacement specialization for torch. How would that even work?</p>Torch doesn't have a weapon group or specialization so I would assume that you would pick from the list but bomb makes very little sense as a replacement specialization for torch. How would that even work?aobst1282022-12-06T07:44:32ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageTrondsterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#202022-12-06T07:54:00Z2022-12-06T07:11:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Red Griffyn wrote:</div><blockquote> You missed that Orcs or half orcs or those adopted by them can take the L5 <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1289" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Hold Mark</a> feat which allows axes to use the pick crit specialization if you want to. So you can choose the crit specialization that give the best damage based on the circumstance and get that pick crit spec on a 1D12 weapon when facing a single target.</blockquote><p>That's not how I read the rule:
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">aonprd wrote:</div><blockquote><p><i>(..)</i> When you critically hit using a weapon of the listed group, you apply the weapon's critical specialization effect. <i>(..)</i>
</p>
<ul><li><b>Axe</b> axe or pick
<br />
<li><b>Shield</b> hammer or shield
<br />
<li><b>Torch</b> bomb or knife</ul></blockquote><p>I read this as that if you have the feat and chose the group Axe, then you get the critical specialization effect of your weapon - if you are wielding a weapon in the group (here an axe or pick). The group is "axe", and the weapons in the group are "axe or pick".
</p>
It doesn't say "you may apply any specialization effect from the group" or similar - it says to apply "<i>the weapon's</i> critical specialization effect" - not that of another weapon. And if you already have critical specialization for your wielded weapon from other feats, then this feat has no effect. It could, however, be useful to gain critical specialization for a weapon you do not already have critical specialization for. I read it as a fun and thematic way to get critical specializations, as many other feats do at level 5. Wield a pick - this is a way to get the critical specialization of a pick.</p>
<p>Good observations on AC - and I plan to take several feats mainly to reduce the AC of my enemies, by making them flat footed. :)</p>Red Griffyn wrote:You missed that Orcs or half orcs or those adopted by them can take the L5 Hold Mark feat which allows axes to use the pick crit specialization if you want to. So you can choose the crit specialization that give the best damage based on the circumstance and get that pick crit spec on a 1D12 weapon when facing a single target.
That's not how I read the rule:
aonprd wrote:(..) When you critically hit using a weapon of the listed group, you apply the weapon's critical...Trondster2022-12-06T07:11:47ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageRed Griffynhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#192022-12-06T05:17:47Z2022-12-06T05:17:47Z<p>You missed that Orcs or half orcs or those adopted by them can take the L5 <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1289" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Hold Mark</a> feat which allows axes to use the pick crit specialization if you want to. So you can choose the crit specialization that give the best damage based on the circumstance and get that pick crit spec on a 1D12 weapon when facing a single target.</p>
<p>The other thing to consider for fighters is selection of your primary weapon group should consider if there is a thrown weapon option that you can strap a returning rune on so you have a ranged option at full attack bonus. I think the Trident (1D8 spear) or Mambele (1D6 axe with deadly d8) and the light hammer (1d6 agile hammer) are the standouts.</p>
<p>My personal choices would be hammer for the crit spec since a AoO at no map and mid turn flatfooted from prone, and burning an action is a solid choice. Also because you can have that backup thrown light hammer. But I also agree with others here that unless you're a fighter you're better off assuming there won't be any crits. I know statistically that isn't true, but psychologically it'll feel awful hoping for crits for you main damage average. Especially if you have a GM or AP that throws over-tuned encounters your way by adding 1-2 CR=level or CR+1/CR+2 monster instead of like 2-4 CR-2/CR-1 creatures that get crit more often.</p>
<p>Also a damage rune is typically worth 3.5 DPR but some runes (e.g., crushing/major crushing) can give condition penalties of 1 or 2 to the enemies AC until the end of your NEXT turn. A -1 or -2 to AC can be significantly more damage than 3.5 (I forget the breakdown but each -1 can be roughly 10-15% increase in damage). So you can have some pretty crazy turns as a fighter with a major crushing maul that crits on strike 1, knocks prone and now your second strike is an effective -1 from full MAP from flatfooted and Clumsy 2, AoO them standing up with a effective +3 to +4 and have that same +2 Clumsy Bonus for all the strikes on your next turn.</p>You missed that Orcs or half orcs or those adopted by them can take the L5 Hold Mark feat which allows axes to use the pick crit specialization if you want to. So you can choose the crit specialization that give the best damage based on the circumstance and get that pick crit spec on a 1D12 weapon when facing a single target.
The other thing to consider for fighters is selection of your primary weapon group should consider if there is a thrown weapon option that you can strap a returning...Red Griffyn2022-12-06T05:17:47ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageHammerJackhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#182022-12-06T02:31:09Z2022-12-06T02:31:09Z<p>I'd note that while giant barbarians who need larger weapons to use their instinct ability have guaranteed Access, there is no inherent rarity to Large weapons. That looks initially like a mismatch, but makes sense with the Access being designed around the GM being able to shift it to fit campaigns and characters.</p>I'd note that while giant barbarians who need larger weapons to use their instinct ability have guaranteed Access, there is no inherent rarity to Large weapons. That looks initially like a mismatch, but makes sense with the Access being designed around the GM being able to shift it to fit campaigns and characters.HammerJack2022-12-06T02:31:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageGuntermenchhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#172022-12-06T02:22:35Z2022-12-06T02:22:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Taja the Barbarian wrote:</div><blockquote>Giant Barbarians can somehow always find an oversized version of any weapon otherwise available for sale: It's just one of those things... </blockquote><p>They order from home.Taja the Barbarian wrote:Giant Barbarians can somehow always find an oversized version of any weapon otherwise available for sale: It's just one of those things...
They order from home.Guntermench2022-12-06T02:22:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageMer_https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#162022-12-05T22:25:05Z2022-12-05T20:14:24Z<p>That is a problem with the rarity system yes.
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Uncommon weapons are hard to get access to when planning a character but once one instance of a weapon exists in your game and you have access to qualified smiths in a high magic setting, there's no reason you couldn't get one replicated and share with the group. There's no reason seeing one weapon doesn't grant you access to turn your weapon into it via a shifting rune.</p>
<p>In my opinion the rarity system should interface more with weapon categories and relax (not remove) access requirements. But I think there's PFS reasons why that is not the case.</p>That is a problem with the rarity system yes.
Uncommon weapons are hard to get access to when planning a character but once one instance of a weapon exists in your game and you have access to qualified smiths in a high magic setting, there's no reason you couldn't get one replicated and share with the group. There's no reason seeing one weapon doesn't grant you access to turn your weapon into it via a shifting rune.
In my opinion the rarity system should interface more with weapon categories...Mer_2022-12-05T20:14:24ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageCordell Kintnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#152022-12-05T19:18:39Z2022-12-05T19:18:39Z<p>As long as your GM is cool with you having the weapon, there's no issues. They're just trying to explain what the Uncommon trait means.</p>
<p>You should never just assume you can get an Uncommon character option, unless you have something that says you have access to it. That's what the ancestral weapon feats do, give you access to the items.</p>
<p>If you want access to an item otherwise, it's entirely up to the GM.</p>As long as your GM is cool with you having the weapon, there's no issues. They're just trying to explain what the Uncommon trait means.
You should never just assume you can get an Uncommon character option, unless you have something that says you have access to it. That's what the ancestral weapon feats do, give you access to the items.
If you want access to an item otherwise, it's entirely up to the GM.Cordell Kintner2022-12-05T19:18:39ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageTrondsterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#142022-12-05T17:05:59Z2022-12-05T17:05:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Taja the Barbarian wrote:</div><blockquote>Giant Barbarians can somehow always find an oversized version of any weapon otherwise available for sale: It's just one of those things... </blockquote><p>Sure, but if you want to justify getting/finding an item later on in-game, or (as I did) justifying getting an uncommon item at character creation at a slightly higher level...
<p>I'd argue that thematically it should be easier to find a large Ogre Hook than large versions of many other items.</p>
<p>(But hey - I totally agree that a lvl 1 Giant Instinct Barbarian should be able to get a large version of <i>any</i> weapon they otherwise have access to.)</p>Taja the Barbarian wrote:Giant Barbarians can somehow always find an oversized version of any weapon otherwise available for sale: It's just one of those things...
Sure, but if you want to justify getting/finding an item later on in-game, or (as I did) justifying getting an uncommon item at character creation at a slightly higher level... I'd argue that thematically it should be easier to find a large Ogre Hook than large versions of many other items.
(But hey - I totally agree that a lvl 1...Trondster2022-12-05T17:05:59ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageTaja the Barbarian (alias of Darren Rodriguez)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#132022-12-05T16:24:55Z2022-12-05T16:24:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mer_ wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Giant instinct barbarians specifically get access to a large weapon. Access is a rules thing here. You need it for an uncommon weapon unless you can specifically loot it and the easiest way to circumvent it is the unconventional weaponry ancestry feat.
</p>
It's not the most well handled part of the rules to be honest, but it's easy to work around at private tables. </blockquote>Correct:<b><div class="messageboard-quotee">Barbarian / Giant Instinct / Titan Mauler (Instinct Ability) wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Source</b> Core Rulebook pg. 87 (3.0)
</p>
You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging). If you're not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you. <b><i>You gain access to this larger weapon, which can be of any weapon type otherwise available at character creation.</b></i> It has the normal Price and Bulk for a weapon of its size. When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6, but you have the clumsy 1 condition because of the weapon's unwieldy size. You can't remove this clumsy condition or ignore its penalties by any means while wielding the weapon.</blockquote><p>Giant Barbarians can somehow always find an oversized version of any weapon otherwise available for sale: It's just one of those things...Mer_ wrote:Giant instinct barbarians specifically get access to a large weapon. Access is a rules thing here. You need it for an uncommon weapon unless you can specifically loot it and the easiest way to circumvent it is the unconventional weaponry ancestry feat.
It's not the most well handled part of the rules to be honest, but it's easy to work around at private tables.
Correct:Barbarian / Giant Instinct / Titan Mauler (Instinct Ability) wrote:Source Core Rulebook pg. 87 (3.0)
You can...Taja the Barbarian (alias of Darren Rodriguez)2022-12-05T16:24:55ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageThe Raven Blackhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#122022-12-05T14:33:05Z2022-12-05T14:33:05Z<p>Shifting Rune on a Large Dagger for a 1h Giant Barbarian. And a Bladed diabolo for a 2h one (but it's Uncommon).</p>Shifting Rune on a Large Dagger for a 1h Giant Barbarian. And a Bladed diabolo for a 2h one (but it's Uncommon).The Raven Black2022-12-05T14:33:05ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageMer_https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#112022-12-05T14:26:38Z2022-12-05T09:01:41Z<p>Giant instinct barbarians specifically get access to a large weapon. Access is a rules thing here. You need it for an uncommon weapon unless you can specifically loot it and the easiest way to circumvent it is the unconventional weaponry ancestry feat.
<br />
It's not the most well handled part of the rules to be honest, but it's easy to work around at private tables.</p>Giant instinct barbarians specifically get access to a large weapon. Access is a rules thing here. You need it for an uncommon weapon unless you can specifically loot it and the easiest way to circumvent it is the unconventional weaponry ancestry feat.
It's not the most well handled part of the rules to be honest, but it's easy to work around at private tables.Mer_2022-12-05T09:01:41ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageTrondsterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#102022-12-05T07:51:18Z2022-12-05T07:51:18Z<p>Well - thematically you could argue that there's a problem getting <i>any</i> kind of large weapon for a giant instinct barbarian - most weapon smiths probably mostly make weapons for medium or small sized creatures. (Unless you are in a society where there are many large humanoid creatures regularly wielding large weapons.)</p>
<p>Getting a Large sized weapon should be much easier if the weapon is of a type commonly used by Large creatures - like Ogre Hooks or Great Axes for Ogres. You could get one off an Ogre, or a blacksmith might have one lying around, as there are many such weapons "in circulation". A blacksmith might be happy to buy some, if nothing else for reforging to other types of weapons or tools.</p>
<p>As for weapon types I thought a lot about hammers and flails (just as you mentioned, also for the sweet critical specialization), and mostly settled on a large War Flail - a cool weapon with decent damage, sweep, trip and a nice critical specialization.
<br />
I also considered a weapon with the Two Handed trait, to also be able to fight with a free hand, for various Athletics skills. I considered a large Gnome Hooked Hammer, to also get Trip in 2h mode and versatile damage, but an uncommon small gnome weapon sounds <i>really</i> unlikely to have for a low-level character (my new character will be joining an existing campaign at level 4), and a Large version of a Small Uncommon weapon would thematically in my opinion have be a custom job by a blacksmith (unless the player has a really good thematic explanation).</p>
<p>I'd also prefer to go for a weapon that works well late game - Maul and War Flail sound really cool and imposing, and should be rather nice for later Whirlwind attacks when I have more reach (I don't rank reach as highly for this character since I'll be getting more reach at higher levels).</p>
<p>Buuut - I ended up with an Ogre Hook. Not because of the crazy crit damage, but because it has Trip, and thematically because it is plausible to get a Large sized one. And especially since we weaved it into my backstory - about an Ogre killing off the rest of my family when I was younger, and me later getting revenge and taking its weapon. (It is uncommon and thus unfit as a starter weapon, but since I start at level 4 it is more plausible that I have gotten one. We'll probably start off with a solo pre-adventure where I use a different weapon and (hopefully) end up taking down that Ogre.)</p>
<p>Side note: That you only can start with ancestry weapons if you have an ancestral trait - is that a rule in the rule book or just a (very reasonable) house rule? I know that you cannot start with uncommon weapons unless you have access to them, but ancestral weapons should be fine, as long as they are not uncommon or rare, right? Otherwise the rules to me seem more thematic than anything else: "Elves craft and use these weapons".
<br />
(To me it seems a reasonable house rule, in that I would disallow it, unless you have a thematic reason. I'd allow a thematic reason without requiring any feats or backgrounds; "One of my best friends growing up was an Grippli, who taught me to hunt with the Hand Adze".)
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But looking closer, this rant doesn't have much impact in the game - <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?include-traits=azarketi%3Bcatfolk%3Bconrasu%3Bdwarf%3Belf%3Bgeniekin%3Bghoran%3Bgnome%3Bgoblin%3Bgrippli%3Bhalfling%3Bkobold%3Bmonk%3Borc%3Btengu%3Bvanara%3Bvishkanya&exclude-traits=uncommon&traits-operator=or&sort=weapon_type-asc%2Cweapon_category-desc%2Cname-asc&display=table&columns=pfs%2Csource%2Cweapon_type%2Cweapon_category%2Cweapon_group%2Ctrait%2Cdamage%2Chands%2Crange%2Creload%2Cbulk%2Cprice" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">there are only a very few</a> non-uncommon weapons with ancestry traits - seems to me to only be Grippli, Vanara and a few Monk weapons. (I guess the Grippli Adze weapons aren't uncommon because they really are common tools - it's just uncommon to use them as weapons.)</p>Well - thematically you could argue that there's a problem getting any kind of large weapon for a giant instinct barbarian - most weapon smiths probably mostly make weapons for medium or small sized creatures. (Unless you are in a society where there are many large humanoid creatures regularly wielding large weapons.)
Getting a Large sized weapon should be much easier if the weapon is of a type commonly used by Large creatures - like Ogre Hooks or Great Axes for Ogres. You could get one off...Trondster2022-12-05T07:51:18ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageCordell Kintnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#92022-12-05T07:51:33Z2022-12-04T23:17:42Z<p>Ogre Hooks were not in my recommendations because they are uncommon with no reliable way to access them, so you would have to work with your GM on gaining access (Or kill an ogre wielding one I guess).</p>
<p>But yes, Flails and Hammers are the best weapon groups because they knock enemies prone on a crit, with Swords being second best since they just make the enemy Flat-Footed for one round.</p>Ogre Hooks were not in my recommendations because they are uncommon with no reliable way to access them, so you would have to work with your GM on gaining access (Or kill an ogre wielding one I guess).
But yes, Flails and Hammers are the best weapon groups because they knock enemies prone on a crit, with Swords being second best since they just make the enemy Flat-Footed for one round.Cordell Kintner2022-12-04T23:17:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageDeriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#82022-12-05T07:51:40Z2022-12-04T20:59:18Z<p>A giant barbarian with an ogre hook is probably the highest single target crit damage. I've played one and they are brutal damage dealers after you get past the levels where you go down super easy because you are easy to critical hit.</p>
<p>Crits are not common on boss creatures, but do happen more often than you think if you are well-supported by a group that debuffs and buffs. You can shift AC by 3 or more points at higher level and add group true strike and buff your attack roll for a shift of 1 to 3 points upwards. Using <i>Synesthesia</i> or <i>phantasmal killer</i> will usually shift an enemy AC down from to 1 to 3 points, then add in flanking for a further -2, then if you are buffed with a bard song or some status bonus from heroism you get another bump up +1 or more. So you're looking at a hit roll shift from 4 to 6 which greatly improves your critical rate. </p>
<p>You should also look at other factors like Critical Specialization. The highest damage I've seen from a martial is a maul fighter. I never tested this with a barbarian, so a barbarian could probably do some brutal damage as well with it. But if you have a maul fighter and critical hit, you knock the target prone without having to spend an action or make a roll. When the target gets up regardless of movement type as they have to get into position to move, you get an Attack of Opportunity which is an extra attack at full bonus.</p>
<p>I'd say my experience is the Ogre Hoot/Great Pick with critical specialization is the top single hit damage on a critical hit. When they land, they are absolutely brutal. </p>
<p>But the maul will give you more damage over time I believe with its critical specialization working very well with Attack of Opportunity giving you more chances to critical hit and do damage.</p>A giant barbarian with an ogre hook is probably the highest single target crit damage. I've played one and they are brutal damage dealers after you get past the levels where you go down super easy because you are easy to critical hit.
Crits are not common on boss creatures, but do happen more often than you think if you are well-supported by a group that debuffs and buffs. You can shift AC by 3 or more points at higher level and add group true strike and buff your attack roll for a shift of...Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)2022-12-04T20:59:18ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageSquiggithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#72022-12-06T18:21:00Z2022-12-04T19:58:16Z<p>Forceful's kind of a trap in practice, since you're usually downgrading your damage die to get it, it's actually reducing the damage you do by moving power from your most accurate attack to your weakest. </p>
<p>The only real exceptions are the curve blade and necksplitter, since those don't lose damage die right now. </p>
<p>Agree with other people about Fatal, you're trading static damage for crit fishing which isn't always a great trade (but you can do the math by seeing how much extra damage you do with a non-fatal weapon and seeing how often you need to crit to balance it out).</p>
<p>It's worth noting though that Fatal is also a much stronger trait at low levels, since the extra die from Fatal doesn't scale, it's worth much more the fewer damage modifiers you have.</p>Forceful's kind of a trap in practice, since you're usually downgrading your damage die to get it, it's actually reducing the damage you do by moving power from your most accurate attack to your weakest.
The only real exceptions are the curve blade and necksplitter, since those don't lose damage die right now.
Agree with other people about Fatal, you're trading static damage for crit fishing which isn't always a great trade (but you can do the math by seeing how much extra damage you do...Squiggit2022-12-04T19:58:16ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageCordell Kintnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#62022-12-04T16:31:04Z2022-12-04T16:01:35Z<p>Also note, Barbarians don't get their rage bonus damage with Ranged attacks. So while a Big Boom Gun does a lot on a crit, a Giant barbarian with a Great Axe does an additional 6 flat damage on a normal hit, doubling to 12 on a crit.</p>
<p>You should look into getting a weapon with a good trait, like Sweep, Backswing, Reach, or Forcefull, in the d8-d12 range. Here's some of my recommendations for each weapon group:</p>
<p>Axe: Greataxe, Dwarven War Axe•
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Club: Griffon Cane
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Flail: Gnome Flickmace•, Meteor Hammer, War Flail
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Hammer: Gnome Hooked Hammer•
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Pick: Greatpick, Gnome Switchscythe•, Kobold Tricky Pick•
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Polearm: Fauchard, Glaive, Guisarme, Halberd, Goblin Horsechopper•, Naginata, Ranseur, Scythe
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Spear: Broadspear, Azarketi Gill Hook•, War Lance
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Sword: Bastard Sword, Elven Curve Blade•, Falchion, Greatsword, Katana, Panabas, Talwar</p>
<p>•Ancestral weapons all have the ancestry in the name, and require the ancestral weapon feat, or Unconventional Weaponry.</p>Also note, Barbarians don't get their rage bonus damage with Ranged attacks. So while a Big Boom Gun does a lot on a crit, a Giant barbarian with a Great Axe does an additional 6 flat damage on a normal hit, doubling to 12 on a crit.
You should look into getting a weapon with a good trait, like Sweep, Backswing, Reach, or Forcefull, in the d8-d12 range. Here's some of my recommendations for each weapon group:
Axe: Greataxe, Dwarven War Axe*
Club: Griffon Cane
Flail: Gnome Flickmace*, Meteor...Cordell Kintner2022-12-04T16:01:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageTrondsterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#52022-12-03T22:11:35Z2022-12-03T22:11:35Z<p>The primary reason for choosing a weapon would for me anyway be a thematic reason, even though it helps that it performs ok. :)</p>
<p>But - as you also state - I'd rather want a weapon that does works well for regular attacks, instead of a pure crit monster.</p>
<p>I originally started this post out as questions about damage, but it changed underway, and ended up as a table answering my own questions. (I still wonder if my math is correct, though.)</p>The primary reason for choosing a weapon would for me anyway be a thematic reason, even though it helps that it performs ok. :)
But - as you also state - I'd rather want a weapon that does works well for regular attacks, instead of a pure crit monster.
I originally started this post out as questions about damage, but it changed underway, and ended up as a table answering my own questions. (I still wonder if my math is correct, though.)Trondster2022-12-03T22:11:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: Weapon damage, and weapon with the highest damageCastillianohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pye?Weapon-damage-and-weapon-with-the-highest-damage#42022-12-03T21:57:05Z2022-12-03T21:57:05Z<p>I think you kind of need to factor in special runes (if adding runes at all). And for many builds, feats (and class abilities) have a major impact on weapon effectiveness, as does attack routine (as gesalt linked to).
<br />
Just finding "average damage" isn't actually that helpful. Sorry.
<br />
(Plus the info's so dense it's simpler to calculate in one's head.)</p>I think you kind of need to factor in special runes (if adding runes at all). And for many builds, feats (and class abilities) have a major impact on weapon effectiveness, as does attack routine (as gesalt linked to).
Just finding "average damage" isn't actually that helpful. Sorry.
(Plus the info's so dense it's simpler to calculate in one's head.)Castilliano2022-12-03T21:57:05Z