Thaumaturge Mirror's Reflection and Forced Movement


Rules Discussion


We have a Thaumaturge in a game I am in now. They have Mirror Implement as their first implement.

So we are fighting some flying drakes. We are pretty sure that you shouldn't be able to project your image into the air and have it stay there and fight for the rest of the round. It should be affected by gravity and fall immediately since anything that can affect you will affect either copy of you.

But that made me think about Forced Movement. The rules for Mirror's Reflection say that the effect ends if you choose to move from your location. But what about if you are forced to move from your location such as by being shoved?


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Love it.

Are you sure it has to fall. It is just an illusion after all?

I would think forced movement could be one of those things that would force you to determine which image is the real you.

For style points as a GM after level 7, destroy the reflection on the ground and force the real Thaumaturge to take falling damage.


For simplification, it should end the effect like striding would. "Choose" is the key terms here though and would suggest that it wouldn't break a copy. It would be pretty interesting if it's supposed to effect both versions. Simple enough in an open space with horizontal forced movement but a fall might cause one of you to fall through the floor into the backrooms.


Bonus question: if an enemy trips one copy of the thaumaturge, does the other image get tripped too?

I would think so since it is applying a condition (prone). Same as if an enemy used Demoralize or Bon Mot on a copy of the thaumaturge the condition would be applied to the thaumaturge generally - not just the one copy.

So if shoving one copy doesn't break the illusion due to the movement (because no choice on the thaumaturge's part), does it instead also move the other copy by applying the forced movement to both copies of the thaumaturge?


breithauptclan wrote:

Bonus question: if an enemy trips one copy of the thaumaturge, does the other image get tripped too?

I would think so since it is applying a condition (prone). Same as if an enemy used Demoralize or Bon Mot on a copy of the thaumaturge the condition would be applied to the thaumaturge generally - not just the one copy.

So if shoving one copy doesn't break the illusion due to the movement (because no choice on the thaumaturge's part), does it instead also move the other copy by applying the forced movement to both copies of the thaumaturge?

That's what I was getting at with my hypothetical. Just run into issues when there's stuff in the way like walls or the floor of one copy is falling.


breithauptclan wrote:

Bonus question: if an enemy trips one copy of the thaumaturge, does the other image get tripped too?

The rules says Anything that targets or would affect your reflection affects you and uses your statistics.

So I'd say if one of you was tripped dazzled or grappled then you both would be.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gortle wrote:

Love it.

Are you sure it has to fall. It is just an illusion after all?

I would think forced movement could be one of those things that would force you to determine which image is the real you.

For style points as a GM after level 7, destroy the reflection on the ground and force the real Thaumaturge to take falling damage.

"Anything that targets or would affect your reflection affects you and uses your statistics." Gravity affects the reflection just like it reflects you. It really isn't "just an illusion" when you come down to it-- the Thaumaturge is basically existing in two places at once.


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Basically, what I am seeing here is that we should add Forced Movement and falling (basically anything that moves you from one location to another whether it is by your choice or not) to the list of things that end the effect and require the Thaumaturge to choose which copy is real.

Without that, things can get really weird in various cases.


(Thaum Mirror copy is shoved off cliff, falls to the ground and dies horribly.)

Remaining Thaumaturge: Uh... I think I'll pick *this* one.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Gortle wrote:

Love it.

Are you sure it has to fall. It is just an illusion after all?

I would think forced movement could be one of those things that would force you to determine which image is the real you.

For style points as a GM after level 7, destroy the reflection on the ground and force the real Thaumaturge to take falling damage.

"Anything that targets or would affect your reflection affects you and uses your statistics." Gravity affects the reflection just like it reflects you. It really isn't "just an illusion" when you come down to it-- the Thaumaturge is basically existing in two places at once.

You are missing the point. It is actually an illusion.

It is like Schrodingers Cat. You might be in one of two places, maybe one, maybe the other, maybe both.

Gravity is affecting you and your reflection. My statistics? - I'm on the ground, I can't fall further.

That affect is nothing on one of those as they can't fall further, so why not on the other?

When you are using magic to create quasi real copies, basic laws of physics are up for debate.


breithauptclan wrote:
Without that, things can get really weird in various cases.

True but this is an arcane illusion. I'm happy with weird.


Gortle wrote:
You are missing the point. It is actually an illusion.

And I think you are ignoring some rules text. It may be an illusion, but it is affected by things exactly the same as you yourself are. And those effects also affect you yourself even if they were applied to the illusory copy.

Sovereign Court

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Yeah I think "illusory" is making it sound less practically real than it is. The "illusion" can be attacked and can attack and in both cases the damage is real.

This is a pretty clear case of a weird open-ended ability that's going to require some GM adjudication.

Quote:
Some events force you to determine which image is the real you, and then end the effect and cause your mirror self to disappear; this happens automatically at the start of your next turn. It also happens if you choose to move out of your space.

Choosing to move is presented here as very closely related to a vague category of things that force you to choose which image is the real you. I'd rule forced movement as "one of your candidate real yous is going to be forcibly moved... do you want that you to be the real you?"


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breithauptclan wrote:
Gortle wrote:
You are missing the point. It is actually an illusion.

And I think you are ignoring some rules text. It may be an illusion, but it is affected by things exactly the same as you yourself are. And those effects also affect you yourself even if they were applied to the illusory copy.

Anything that affects you also affects it though. So the ground affects the illusion?

What he is trying to say, and I agree, is that due to magic being magic things get weird and there's a line that needs to be crossed.

As an example, you say "gravity affects the illusion so it drops" but on the exact same principle "the illusion doesn't fall because the mass (ground) under your feet affects it".

Is there a reason why we should only count gravity but not mass?
And if we aren't counting mass as something, does that makes us immune to physical?

---

The OP asks an impossible question to answer using real life logic because of the state of the mirror image allowing something to exist in two opposite states simultaneously.

So, without actual rules that describe how the "magic" works, the inability to apply real world logic on the effect means that each gm will have to make a call on every such instance.

Horizon Hunters

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The thing about the reflection is, they're both you. Until you, the Thaumaturge, chooses which one is the real one, they are both real. It's basically a PC Superposition problem.

If one of the two are tripped, both are tripped. If one is shoved, both are shoved. Only until you willingly move, you fall unconscious, or at the start of your turn, will you be able to pick which one is the real one.

I would agree that the reflection can not float. For all intents and purposes it is you, until it's not.

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