So, at what points is stealth rolled, or rerolled?
It's certainly rolled when you 'start' stealthing. And when you move somewhere that enemies can see (but start and end where they can't).
My group has generally played that the "I run up to them and stab them!!" approach is also usually a stealth roll. I think we might not always have done so if that's exactly what the initial stealthing was for, but generally it's the idea that they do get that chance to spot you as you're bearing down upon them.
I've now got a player who's planning on doing a sniper, and sniping every round. Looking at that, he'll make his initial stealth roll, roll after each time he snipes, but he won't have to roll before the attack. It makes sense because he's doing it from range, but also to not have a ridiculous number of rolls.
Question is, what (if anything) triggers a new stealth roll other than the next snipe attack?
- Obviously, moving to new cover but crossing visible space does.
- If new folk appear on the scene and have a chance to see him - do they roll against his existing stealth roll, or a new one? I'd fairly strongly lean towards 'existing' so that it doesn't get silly as 20 clowns get out of a car one by one and each trigger a new roll ;-) and because it's going against his initial hiding.
- If someone's actively looking for him (a move action) does that go against the existing roll, or trigger a new roll? The way the Perception skill describes "Notice a creature using Stealth: Opposed by Stealth" to me feels like it's a new opposed roll - but it's not really clear. This is something that will happen less often, and thus I'm less worried about it causing more rolls.
Technically, you are supposed to roll ever round, and every round where someone could see you (you aren't concealed by total cover/concealment, you are doing something at least in theory that is audible, and so on) that someone will roll perception. This typically gets shortened to only rolling when there is that other someone, but some people also think being forced to reroll turn over turn is a little severe for probability across multiple rolls; they might just limit it to types of stealthing: e.g. you are crossing one room or set of rooms, you are hiding from a crossing patrol or someone searching the area, you are getting into an ambush position, and/or you are leaping out/shooting from that position. In this second case, the only time you absolutely should roll turn over turn is when you are using the sniping rules, where you need to roll after every shot. In any case, if you are using a method where you aren't rolling round over round, you should always just use the new perception (with appropriate modifiers say from distance or how distracted the observer is)
against the most recent stealth.
Do note that outside of combat (when stealth is most often used), both the stealth-er and the perception-er(s) can take 10 on their checks instead of rolling.
In any case, if you are using a method where you aren't rolling round over round, you should always just use the new perception (with appropriate modifiers say from distance or how distracted the observer is)
against the most recent stealth.
So what you're saying is you think the rule is "Active perception is rolled against the existing stealth, not against a new stealth roll" if I'm reading that correctly?
That's the simple short-hand I often see. More precisely, unless someone is specifically watching for a certain thing (e.g. a guard watching a particular doorway, but not say an entire street from outside of the door), you'll only take the perception once (per observing participant; but note that there is also a rule that multiple identical participants can add +1 to the roll for each beyond the first) for when the stealther passes through an area where he should be noticed automatically if he weren't stealthing.
So, out of combat stealth/perception, I think I'll be able to handle without worrying.
What I'm more interested in here is in-combat stealth/perception. Where there's lots of rolls, and action economy comes into play.
My player will be rolling every round when he's sniping, and he's building to be sniping as much as possible. The question is, where high Perception enemies may throw an action at rolling again. Thus my particular curiousity around "Is it an opposed reroll of both, or is it the case that they get another Perception roll against the original stealth?
As I say, to me, the way Perception is worded makes me think it's a new opposed roll, but it's not very clear.
note that there is also a rule that multiple identical participants can add +1 to the roll for each beyond the first
Where is that rule?
I'm fairly certain that a stealth check is made once and you keep the result until you break stealth (which could be as simple as leaving cover and not ending your turn behind cover. Once you are out in the open, it doesnt matter how good your stealth is, they will see you if you are visible and the DC is 10 or under, factoring distance). That initial roll sets the DC needed for a creature to perceive you. A creature attempting to spot you again rolls against the same DC until you do something that requires a new stealth check to be made.
Sniping should be rolled on both sides every time they snipe as an opposed roll because the sniper is risking breaking stealth every time they fire an arrow (or other ammunition of choice) and because people should have a chance to see where it came from. Again stealth is technically always an opposed roll, there is just not usually a need to roll it if there is no opponent to see (and a good GM won't want to give away someone else may suddenly be watching by calling for a roll out of nowhere, or waste time calling for a roll every turn)
And Deathless is correct, you still need cover or concealment at the start and end of your turn to maintain stealth (unless you have the Camouflage ability) and to break Line of Sight with said cover/concealment when you're already spotted to reenter stealth (unless you have Hide in Plain Sight; or use a really obscure feint rule). If you're just standing in the middle of the open in broad day/bright light, you can have +9999 stealth, but everyone will still see you because there you are.
And going back over the rules, it seems the +1/creature rule was just something passed to me by a GM some many years ago, not part of anything I can find at least quickly. In either case, I still recommend it for large groups of identical enemies (5+) instead of rolling that large n number of times.
It's a house rule and I run pretty by the book. I'm running in Roll20 and I can just compare the perception rolls to the DC easily enough, roll en-masse.
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In the Blog I liked below you can find the result of Paizo trying to make Stealth clearer.
It wasn't a resounding success:
Stealth playtest one
Stealth playtest two
After the playtesting they opted for the following errata to the skill:
• Page 106—In the Stealth skill, in the Check section, add the following paragraph after the third paragraph:
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
You must remember that making an active perception check is a move action, while you make a passive check in reaction to a new stimulus:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
A guy hiding in the bushes while staying still doesn't generate a stimulus, he generates it only the first time he enters the perceiving creature's perception range. As soon as he moves and does something he generates a new stimulus.
In game terms, every time a creature takes an action within the perception range of another (even if it is a free action) it generates a stimulus and a free perception check, but each action generates a single stimulus and complex actions (cliche drawing an arrow, knocking it and releasing it) are a single stimulus.
Not simple and often requires some ruling on the spot for making it work smoothly.
Interesting to note that they dropped sniping to a standard action in the second playtest. Did they actually keep it as a standard action and the online rules sources (both the srd and prd) are out of date or when did they switch it back?
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Interesting to note that they dropped sniping to a standard action in the second playtest. Did they actually keep it as a standard action and the online rules sources (both the srd and prd) are out of date or when did they switch it back?
I was interrupted by the phone, so I added some stuff in the post above only now.
As it was a playtest, the CRB wasn't changed during it.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
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Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Sniping is one of those strange rules. It is used only if you want to stay put after firing a single arrow. The goal is to negate the opponent a chance to know your approximate position.
But, game-wise, it is often more efficient to attack and then take a move action to move to another concealed position. That way you can enter stealth without the sniping penalty.
You can even take a full attack and then make a 5' step to hide in an adjacent bush.
The (questionable) advantage of sniping is that, if you are successful, the enemy knows that the attack came from that general direction, he doesn't know from what square it originated.
In theory, the sniper would avoid a readied action from the opponent (or, at least, that is how I read it).
Good if you are sniping a wizard.
Player: "The attack came from the north, so I throw a fireball in that direction"
GM "Choose the center point from the spell."
Player "I center it on the square from which the guy shot me."
GM "He has successfully used Sniping, you don't know from what square he shot the arrow, only that it came from this 90° arc."
P.S.: just to be clear, I am giving my best interpretation.
Even Paizo Developers were unable to completely clarify Stealth.
Actually, Pathfinder made it worse to adjudicate, as it unified the 3.X skills Listen, Search and Spot and Hide into Perception and Move Silently and Hide into Stealth. So, today, we have Invisibility that adds +20 to the DC of hearing the one using it.
I'm fairly certain that a stealth check is made once and you keep the result until you break stealth (which could be as simple as leaving cover and not ending your turn behind cover. Once you are out in the open, it doesnt matter how good your stealth is, they will see you if you are visible and the DC is 10 or under, factoring distance). That initial roll sets the DC needed for a creature to perceive you. A creature attempting to spot you again rolls against the same DC until you do something that requires a new stealth check to be made.
The initial roll sets the DC for a passive roll to spot you.
But...
You must remember that making an active perception check is a move action, while you make a passive check in reaction to a new stimulus
So the Active roll has a cost. And an active perception roll against Stealth is described as an opposed check. It's a different cost benefit, and it means that someone is actively looking for that one place you're not hidden.
I've discussed it with the player who's playing the sniper, and we'll be going with that opposed roll. It won't come up that much, and it's probably statistically the same. But it adds a bit more tension, means he can't rest on a 20 meaning he's untouchable for that round, etc.
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Every time you take an action you must make a new roll, moving or firing an arrow is an action, so normally you would have to make 2 rolls when firing an arrow and then using a move action.
Again, Sniping is an outlier, as it allows you to fire an arrow and take a move action (without moving) while making a single Stealth roll.
That was not remotely the question I was asking. The questions were not about his actions, but others. Please look at the questions asked rather than repeating the same things over and over.
Does new people turning up, who hadn't rolled against his stealth when he made it, cause a new roll, or do they go against the existing? (We're going that they go against the existing.)
Does someone (not the stealther) spending a move action to actively look for the stealther - whilst in a position where this is broadly viable - cause a new rolloff? I am going for yes, because of the wording of Perception, and because I like the dynamic it creates.
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That was not remotely the question I was asking. The questions were not about his actions, but others. Please look at the questions asked rather than repeating the same things over and over.
Does new people turning up, who hadn't rolled against his stealth when he made it, cause a new roll, or do they go against the existing? (We're going that they go against the existing.)
Does someone (not the stealther) spending a move action to actively look for the stealther - whilst in a position where this is broadly viable - cause a new rolloff? I am going for yes, because of the wording of Perception, and because I like the dynamic it creates.
AFAIK, both are rolled against the original Stealth skill check. What the character using stealth did hasn't changed.
The result of the hiding character has set a DC. Until he does something that changes that result, that is the DC of the opposite check.When making an opposed skill check, the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target.
It doesn't say that the target and the guy making the check should roll at the same time.
Functionally, the probability is the same if the hider keeps his roll or if the hider rolls again as long as you apply your rule consistently
This is simply not true.
Consider the following scenarios:
Scenario 1: Stealther has rolled a 19 on their stealth check and has a +10 bonus. The one making a perception check has a +25 to perception, meaning they will only fail on a roll of 4 or less. If the original stealth is kept, the stealther has a 20% chance to remain unseen, but should the stealth be rerolled they have a 75% chance of being seen regardless of the perception roll. In this scenario, a reroll will almost always result in being seen.
Scenario 2: Stealther has rolled a 19 and has a +10 bonus. The one making a perception check has a +10 bonus as well. They can only succeed on a roll of 19 or 20, a 10% chance. If stealth is rerolled the odds of remaining hidden are immediately 50% before any rolls are made and can range anywhere from 0% to 95%.
In any case, rerolling will always change the odds, for better or for worse. Typically, rerolls favor the one causing the reroll to happen.
Even if you don't have an advantage in numbers, simply forcing rerolls over and over again has a massive statistical swing as far as anything even remotely similar to "you only need to roll bad once to lose stealth."
You're "supposed to" roll stealth every time you make an action, but aside from the impractical parts of revealing when someone is watching when you might not want to and also wasting time rolling 20 dice over a minute of move actions, it's much fairer to the stealther to only when they do something that could break the stealth. And even then, there's plenty enough reason to encourage taking 10 on both the stealhter and the observer's part.
I'm fairly certain that a stealth check is made once and you keep the result until you break stealth (which could be as simple as leaving cover and not ending your turn behind cover. Once you are out in the open, it doesnt matter how good your stealth is, they will see you if you are visible and the DC is 10 or under, factoring distance). That initial roll sets the DC needed for a creature to perceive you. A creature attempting to spot you again rolls against the same DC until you do something that requires a new stealth check to be made.
This is how we've always run it. Nice and simple. There is no need to add more and more rolls to Pathfinder, there are enough already.
You're supposed to make Stealth checks each time there's a new "event" that the stealther could be perceived. Any time someone would get a Perc check to notice the stealther, such as moving, attacking/sniping, etc, that generates a new "event" that causes an opposed Perc vs Stealth check. So, that could be once per minute, it could be 3 times in a round.
Personally, I find this kinda cumbersome dice-rolls-wise when it's multiple Stealth vs multiple Perc rolls per round, so I just do 1 stealth check per round, and that one roll acts as all the Stealth checks you might make during that round, and each new Perceiver gets a Perc check vs. that one stealth roll.