Bleachlings should be implemented as an archetype for gnomes

[roquepo]

With that I mean an archetype like the undead archetypes from BotD. Gnomes are pretty cool in Pathfinder and the bleaching process is a good part of it. Implementing it mechanically could be a good way to make it easier to implement into games.

As for what it could do and what limitations it should have, I figure it should not be common, probably even Rare, and obviously, should require that you are a Gnome (duh). As for the things it could do, I guess a really high resiliency agains emotion effects, a lot of innate magic and maybe even some amount of resistance to death effects.

This could also be a good way to implement some other ancestry options, like Drows or Centaurs, that would probably would either be problematic or dissapointing if implemented just as regular ancestries. In the case of those 2, maybe a similar approach to how class archetypes work could be good (It applies from level 1 even if you don't get it at level 1).

[keftiu]

Turning a condition most Gnomes treat like a terminal disease into a super-special Archetype feels like the wrong way to handle it, IMO. If it gives you all these cool stat buffs, then why is anyone afraid of it happening to them?

[Sanityfaerie]

keftiu wrote:

Turning a condition most Gnomes treat like a terminal disease into a super-special Archetype feels like the wrong way to handle it, IMO. If it gives you all these cool stat buffs, then why is anyone afraid of it happening to them?

Ask the ghouls/ghosts/zombies?

...and make sure it clocks in at about the same level as those as well.

That said... this seems like overkill. Might be better as a series of 2-3 ancestry feats.

[pixierose]

If I recall the Bleaching is super deadly but those that survive do end up with some unique abilities canonically, which had led to some discussion if perhaps it is in fact a sort of second stage of Gnome-life..but those discussions are highly controversial amongst Gnomes.

I think I would rather see Bleaching be reflected in potential ancestry feats.

[roquepo]

keftiu wrote:

Turning a condition most Gnomes treat like a terminal disease into a super-special Archetype feels like the wrong way to handle it, IMO. If it gives you all these cool stat buffs, then why is anyone afraid of it happening to them?

Because most of them die. Next question.

I don't see how it is any different than zombification, really. It is just a cool lore bit that could be implemented into gameplay, that's all.

And the rare thing is not to make it feel "special", it is just something that rarely happen, that's how rarity tags work.

[Captain Morgan]

Wouldn't this be the equivalent of making an "old" archetype for humans? Or would it be closer to cancer?

[graystone]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Wouldn't this be the equivalent of making an "old" archetype for humans? Or would it be closer to cancer?

Well they DO make an elf heritage that's "old" so that isn't too far fetched.

[Brinebeast]

I would love to see the Bleaching interpreted into mechanical options. But I think it also needs to be framed in the context of the seriousness of bleaching in Gnome society.

I can understand the Archetype approach, it is an easy way to add mechanics. However, the Bleaching primarily affects the Ancestry options available to Gnomes. So far Archetype Feats do not prevent a character from being able to gain Ancestry Feats. This is a challenging thing to depict with mechanical options.

[Super Zero]

keftiu wrote:

Turning a condition most Gnomes treat like a terminal disease into a super-special Archetype feels like the wrong way to handle it, IMO. If it gives you all these cool stat buffs, then why is anyone afraid of it happening to them?

Gameplay-wise, the Oracle's curse can be very useful. For the player.

Actually having to live with it-- particularly the minor, constant effects that are "just flavor" for us real people--can be miserable for the characters.

That's nothing new.

[PossibleCabbage]

I feel like gnomes consider bleaching to be a super serious condition is that it normally kills you. A small number of gnomes survive the process which then creates bleachings, but it's not a chance you would want to take particularly when "continuing to be a non-bleached gnome" is an alternative.

[roquepo]

Brinebeast wrote:

I would love to see the Bleaching interpreted into mechanical options. But I think it also needs to be framed in the context of the seriousness of bleaching in Gnome society.

I can understand the Archetype approach, it is an easy way to add mechanics. However, the Bleaching primarily affects the Ancestry options available to Gnomes. So far Archetype Feats do not prevent a character from being able to gain Ancestry Feats. This is a challenging thing to depict with mechanical options.

Specially because it is a big deal that needs to be adreesed well, I think it would be best if it were made into an archetype like those from BotD.

Basically, I don't think a few ancestry feats would represent well the impact something like this would have for a character and an heritage, besides sharing the exact same problem, is something that needs to be picked from level 1 so it does not work (I also don't think that a Vivacious Gnome that went trough that would stop being a Vivacious Gnome, it is not like their connection with the first world is severed due to the affliction).

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

I was honestly surprised that PF2 did not launch with it as a heritage. Bleachling gnome is one of the most popular Starfinder Core Race options, but then in Starfinder bleaching has become a stable condition that can be passed down to your kids.

I think there are rumors in Starfinder that this mysterious genetic change has something to do with Oracles of Oras, mystical trees that spring up in areas of great evolution and change. (There's one in Nerundel, a gnomish village in Castrovel. The tree serves as Dean of students and a college dorm. But that's drifting off topic.)

Since PF2 did not launch with it as a heritage, Bleaching should be an Ancestry feat.

[keftiu]

I'd welcome them as a Heritage down the line, but I suppose that would've been core or in LOCG if that's the way the devs wanted it.

[Malk_Content]

Could it be done by way of the new Aftermath feats? Afterall Bleaching is a traumatic experience your character survives, rather than something they seek out

[QuidEst]

So, here's my issue with the archetype idea. For ghouls and ghosts and vampires, you can start off as one or become one. Adventurers often have unfinished business, so ghosts aren't even unlikely. Lich is a major goal for certain types of mages, and makes sense to include mid-campaign.

But bleachlings require experiencing the bleaching, and "recent events have been so routine that they nearly bored me to death" seems like the kind of thing that belongs exclusively in the backstory. Same issue for an aftermath feat.

[Zendel of Oprak]

If you're with the wrong group, even adventuring can get too routine.

"What, we're hitting another dungeon? Oh no, look... a pit trap. How original. And oh... look. Trolls. What's with all the trolls? Yeah, sure, we did decide to adventure in 'Troll Mountain' but everyone in the party has flame attacks now. Oh, and here's an ooze."

Rolls initiative, comes up last.

"Sorry. Ex-ooze."

I was in a home campaign like that for a few months before I dropped. It was so bad, my player worried that she would start bleaching.

[PossibleCabbage]

It seems like mechanically the issue with making Bleachlings available is that they really should have a different stat array (replace the CHA bonus with a WIS or INT bonus). I don't think there's a way to do this currently.

[Themetricsystem]

Just make it a heritage and bake all the inherent changes into it. The process is one that is traumatic and frankly, it leaves absolutely ZERO space for both flavor and mechanics (IMO) to retain any of the stuff relating to any other heritage.

To me, it seems like making it a chain of Feats is FAR more problematic from a mechanical, lore, and vibe perspective. Why is adding it as a heritage a problem again?

Maybe there would be a fair opportunity for them to introduce an Ancestry Feat to Gnomes to take later on into their career that would trade out their Heritage (completely) for the Bleachling as well as give them a choice of any other 1st-level Ancestry Feat with the Bleachling pre-req?

[roquepo]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Just make it a heritage and bake all the inherent changes into it. The process is one that is traumatic and frankly, it leaves absolutely ZERO space for both flavor and mechanics (IMO) to retain any of the stuff relating to any other heritage.

To me, it seems like making it a chain of Feats is FAR more problematic from a mechanical, lore, and vibe perspective. Why is adding it as a heritage a problem again?

Maybe there would be a fair opportunity for them to introduce an Ancestry Feat to Gnomes to take later on into their career that would trade out their Heritage (completely) for the Bleachling as well as give them a choice of any other 1st-level Ancestry Feat with the Bleachling pre-req?

To me the biggest draw of making it an archetype is that it is a process that can kill you or turn you into a Bleachling at any point in your life, a heritage as we know them would not fit with how the condition is supposed to work (something like the ancestry feat you mentioned might work, but it seems rather convoluted).

Also, I have some troubles with the heritage part because changing it would deny what the character has been up to that point. Do Aasimar Gnome Champions stop being Aasimars because they survived the Bleaching? As another person mentioned as well, Bleachlings probably should have slighly different stat boosts than gnomes, which also leads to a bunch of problems.

Maybe it would be better to just make it its own ancestry, with some adittional rules to adapt a Gnome PC that turned into one mid campaign.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Maybe a level one feat or heritage, that way you can fit the "I am adventuring to stave off my traumatic and inevitable demise" or "I survived a very deadly condition that fundamentally changed me" as a backstory and later get posible stronger benefits through higher level feats.

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, you can play an Elf who lived a long time before they were a level 1 adventurer, so I don't think there should be a problem with starting out with a level 1 bleachling.

But it should also be possible to become one during one's career.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

I am thinking that perhaps we need to think outside of the normal design space for bleachlings.

Another Look at Heritages

One of the reasons why people are shying away from heritage option is that they do not want that heritage to replace the other heritages that a bleachling gnome might have had before. As Roquepo noted above, it would be highly unfair to an aasimar gnome that bleached to no longer be an aasimar.

But while it is true for the vast majority of ancestries that one could only ever have one heritage, there is a common goblin feat, Chosen of Lamashtu, that breaks these rules.

Chosen of Lamashtu has some other problems:

1) You have to worship Lamashtu.
2) Because Lamashtu only has CE followers, you have to be chaotic evil.

Which makes me wonder why, why, why does Paizo love giving many of the best toys to evil characters? Okay, venting done. Moving on!

★ ---- ★ ---- ★ ---- ★

But problems aside, it sets a precedent. Other interesting precedents are the Ancestors Mystery from Oracles (which allows additional ancestry feats on a character) and the lineage feats from various versatile heritages. All of these indicate that in Paizo design space, it is okay to mess with the system a bit to come up with unique ancestry options.

★ ---- ★ ---- ★ ---- ★

Bleachling as a Second Heritage

So... What if Bleachling was a Rare* heritage that allowed you either to:

1) Take on a second heritage at character creation or...
2) Be added as a second heritage if your character went through the Bleaching later in life?

Because Bleachling would always be packaged with a second heritage, it should not be as mechanically powerful as the other heritages available to gnomes. It should not give another innate cantrip, for example. But I could see a +1 circumstance bonus to saves against emotion effects.

Then I would offer a more powerful 5th level ancestry feat only open to Bleachlings with more Bleachling stuff in it, but not make it a bonus feat. I would however allow someone who became a Bleachling in game to trade out another 5th level (or higher) Ancestry feat they had already chosen to get it if they wished.

Ideas for a later Ancestry Feat

I could see several options:

Soothing Presence

Either: a 15-foot aura that gives a +1 circumstance bonus to fear and emotion saves (like the Mashal dedication feat.)

Or: A once-a-day casting of Calm Emotions.

Unflappable

Nothing fazes you, and little surprises you. You always act in Surprise rounds when in Encounter Mode. (And likely a bonus against a couple conditions.)

^ This needs more design thought, but you get the idea.

★ ---- ★ ---- ★ ---- ★

This way, people who just want to portray a traumatic in-game event can get the additional heritage with GM approval and relatively little mechanical cost, while those who want to dive more deeply into mechanics have an option too, but one that requires they use an ancestry feat to acquire.

What do you think?

What would you put in a bleachling heritage? Let your inner game designer roam free!

_____
* Why Rare? Two reasons:
1) In Lore, Bleachlings who survive the Bleaching and reach a stable state are very rare indeed.
2) It gives GMs a chance to say no to double heritages if they wish. Also, I feel that this is the same design space of Fey Influence, a rare ancestry feat.

[Brinebeast]

A second Heritage does make sense and it does seem like there is enough design wiggle room to make it work.

In a similar line of thought, I was thinking a life event Background might work. Basically a Background that can be chosen at first level or later in place of an Ancestry Feat. And then a few Ancestry Feats that can be taken once a character has experienced the life event Background.

[Themetricsystem]

One thing - Why is it a foregone conclusion that mixed heritage Gnomes should even go through the Bleaching? I would posit that their anatomy and genetics (for lack of a better word) would end up being sufficiently different to the point that it very well possibly could prevent them from ever coming down with the Gnome-only affliction.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

I think the real question is whether you're looking at Bleachling as an affliction or a character choice. Allowing a player to say that their aasimar gnome bleached if they wish to do so is what this is all about for me. Bleachlings are not for me, but they were such a popular Starfinder choice that it's clear the idea of being a survivor really appeals to some players.

[Ravingdork]

Make it a heritage first, add an ancestry feat that let's you take that heritage on top of one you already have, and then add other on-theme ancestry feats and perhaps even an archetype to expand on the heritage to taste.

Solves all the issues insofar as I can tell. You can represent your bleachling from level 1, can retain exotic alt heritage if you wish, can pick it up later in life, and can expand into cool themed abilities. You also won't have it competing with your class feats like you would if it was just an archetype.

[Malk_Content]

So I still like the idea if using it as an Aftermath feat, they are designed around you surviving something and coming out the other side different, that's what Bleaching is. But you also might want to start as one, so how about a lvl 1 Ancestry Feat that gives it to you.

[graystone]

You just have to use Elf Atavism as a template: it allows 1/2 elves to "gain the benefits of the elf heritage", so it's seems well with the bounds of what's possible to have a feat to gain the theoretical Bleachling heritage 'benefits'.