Official Lost Omens canon conflicts and clarity thread

[PossibleCabbage]

The other thing is that Pharasma is less comfortable doing things since she no longer knows what's going to happen in all cases ever since the Omens got Lost. But she's been through this sort of thing enough where someone's fate took thousands of years to play out, that she's not especially in a hurry to do things.

Pharasma is most likely the most powerful deity in existence, so she has reason to be cautious anyway.

[shepsquared]

It is deeply frustrating to be left with the impression that evil deities interfere with Golarion's affairs more than the good gods do.

Urgathoa might genuinely be making Tar Baphon unkillable and the equivalent to that in various APs is what, Desna redeeming a succubus or the one time Iomedae talks to you in a dream in Wrath of the Righteous?

[keftiu]

Remembered an old thread I'm curious about: what alignment is Maidrayne Vox, Centaur and Mistress of Blades for the Hellknight Order of the Nail?

I'd dug into her published history a while back, and it paints a confusing picture of things: a Centaur who abandoned her Chaotic Good family to serve under a Lawful Evil lictor whose mission is... colonizing her people's lands for Chelish human settlers. She's been printed as every single Lawful alignment, with LG being the most recent, despite no real redemption arc, changes in behavior, or reckoning with her working for a genocidal effort against the indigenous peoples of Varisia.

[Temperans]

shepsquared wrote:

It is deeply frustrating to be left with the impression that evil deities interfere with Golarion's affairs more than the good gods do.

Urgathoa might genuinely be making Tar Baphon unkillable and the equivalent to that in various APs is what, Desna redeeming a succubus or the one time Iomedae talks to you in a dream in Wrath of the Righteous?

To be fair that is exactly how good/evil gods typically behave. Good gods want mortals to do their own things to avoid damage to the universe. But evil gods don't really care about the universe and so they do whatever.

Not to mention that while good gods don't actively participate in mortal concerns, that does not mean they don't provide help and aid via other means.

[Evan Tarlton]

When good deities meddle on that scale, they only do it to counter an evil deity or do it in subtle but crucial ways ("Wow, it's a good thing we found X just when we needed it" or "Thanks! We'd have been killed if you hadn't come along when you did!")

[Virellius]

Good is subtle, evil is magnificent.

Why do you think evil is more attractive?

[GM_3826]

There is both a Watsonian (from the perspective of the characters, such as John Watson from Sherlock Holmes) and a Doylist (from the perspective of the author, such as Arthur Conan Doyle) explanation.

The Watsonian explanation is that good deities value free will. If good deities intervene too much, free will is threatened. This has been explored by many different authors in speculative fiction. For an example other nerds (like the kind that play Pathfinder) would be familiar with, look at the Futurama episode where Bender becomes omnipotent and speaks to God. (Or maybe a satellite that collided with God. You should know the one I'm talking about now.) In that episode, Bender starts out as the same jerk he always is, then tries to make things better for a planet and finds out the planet becomes totally reliant on him. So he quits, and then the figure that may or may not be God pushes him to do the right thing. In its words, it does so without making it clear that it had done anything at all.

This is essentially how good deities act on Golarion, and for that matter most D&D settings. When they think that something needs to be done in the Material Plane, they send a message to their clergy saying "hey, I would really appreciate if you did something about this" and their followers rarely decline. Evil deities don't care about these things because in their minds they are the only thing that matters. You can see this contrast between the good and evil tenets of champions. The good tenets are ironically much less restricting, and this is entirely intentional as it reflects an essential characteristic of the deities in question. So evil deities are much more willing to intervene on the Material Plane themselves, as they don't care about mortals except as they contribute to their own ego. There are other reasons, namely that several attempts by deities to intervene in the past have ended in disaster, but this is the reason why you only see evil deities acting on a large scale.

The Doylist explanation? Having good deities be more passive and evil deities more active is more conducive to heroic fantasy stories. As a consequence this is necessary and the explanation only matters so far as "how would my character feel?" If "free will is a delicate thing" doesn't make sense to you, then you just have to grit your teeth and accept it. Some things have to be true to make a narrative work.

To go back to Sherlock Holmes, the stories would be a lot more boring if some cases turned cold. Even the world's most brilliant detective needs evidence. Watson explains this by noting that he only covers the cases that do get solved. Doyle explains this by saying "Well, it wouldn't be a very good story otherwise, now, would it?"

Also, yes, I read TVTropes.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Also, Aroden was never exactly a 'good' god, but even after he had become (or at least declared himself) a god, he straight up fought in wars against invaders trying to conquer Absalom. It's not that good (or at least hero-adjacent) deities never do anything and evil deities always do things...

Actually on that note, how common is it actually that evil deities act in an overt way? The example given is that Urgathoa... hid TB's soul cage for him? Aroden fought and was presumed to have killed TB. Urgathoa's action looks measured and reserved by comparison, possibly even in response. I know a couple of demon lords are involved in the Worldwound, but I'm not sure that demigods with statblocks necessarily count in this respect.

(Mind you we should hardly be comparing 'gets my hands in everything' Aroden's level of activity as a deity)

[Dante Majiko]

I've seen a lot of threads mention Pharasma as the first god, and that she survived the destruction of the previous Multiverse, but no reference as to where that's from - if anyone knows the source of this story I'd love to read it.

Assuming that's the case, is the story of Ihys and Asmodeus from 1E's Book of the Damned (specifically Book 1, Princes of Darkness) out of date? Or do we run into a "from a certain point of view" thing here that depends on which god you believe (in)?

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Dante Majiko wrote:

I've seen a lot of threads mention Pharasma as the first god, and that she survived the destruction of the previous Multiverse, but no reference as to where that's from - if anyone knows the source of this story I'd love to read it.

Assuming that's the case, is the story of Ihys and Asmodeus from 1E's Book of the Damned (specifically Book 1, Princes of Darkness) out of date? Or do we run into a "from a certain point of view" thing here that depends on which god you believe (in)?

Just a few years ago there was a series of mythologically-inspired short fiction on the blog called the Windsong Testaments. Among these was a story by James Jacobs (creative directorsaurus) called, "The Three Fears of Pharasma". In this narrative, the myth of how Pharasma the Survivor emerged from the previous reality and kindled the new, current reality, giving rise to 8 original deities in the process, each representing a different alignment, starting with the Speakers of the Depths (CN), Desna (CG), Sarenrae (NG), Ihys (LG), Achaekek (at the time LN), Asmodeus (LE), and an unnamed entity which lore-seekers might recognise in the form of the original daemon (NE). Rovagug (CE) can variously be interpreted as the last deity spawned in this way, or an all-consuming primordial hunger that supplanted the last deity.

The story itself can be found here; The Three Fears of Pharasma is one of my favourite of the Windsong Testaments alongside the Rage of Creation

[CorvusMask]

I think it might have been first mentioned in Concordance of Rivals in universe book segments

[Temperans]

There are a whole lot of gods who claim to be the first, or lie about it.

I like Pharasma being the first because she and only she is actively trying to stop (heavily slows) Groetus from destroying everything. Only she controls the realm that directs souls to the various planes (from where the planes are built). And only she is the one able to claim knowledge of the past and future (even if her predictions have been more uncertain recently).

The only things with more potential is the very top of the lovecraftian gods.

[The Raven Black]

I like Pharasma being the first, especially the way it is described in the Fears, because her being TN makes absolute sense then : the other alignments relate to her philosophical views as their center. LG means more Lawful and more Good than Pharasma, and so on.

[PossibleCabbage]

Temperans wrote:

I like Pharasma being the first because she and only she is actively trying to stop (heavily slows) Groetus from destroying everything. Only she controls the realm that directs souls to the various planes (from where the planes are built). And only she is the one able to claim knowledge of the past and future (even if her predictions have been more uncertain recently).

I don't think it's Groetus so much as "The Maelstrom as elemental chaos erodes the rest of the universe". Groetus isn't trying to bring about anything in particular, he just has a role to play in the eventual end of things.

[Temperans]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Temperans wrote:

I like Pharasma being the first because she and only she is actively trying to stop (heavily slows) Groetus from destroying everything. Only she controls the realm that directs souls to the various planes (from where the planes are built). And only she is the one able to claim knowledge of the past and future (even if her predictions have been more uncertain recently).

I don't think it's Groetus so much as "The Maelstrom as elemental chaos erodes the rest of the universe". Groetus isn't trying to bring about anything in particular, he just has a role to play in the eventual end of things.

The point stands. Everyone else is doing their own side things not really connected to the start/end of things. While Pharasma is actively trying to stop a really big part of it.

[pixierose]

The one thing that comes into question, isn't there also lore that implies Saranrae was once a lesser deity like an Empyreal Lord, and she ascended to full godhood when she gathered the various deities to seal away Rovagug?

I suppose both could be true.

I can't remember where I read that though so maybe I am mixing things up.

EDIT: I REMEMBER. It was Legacy of Fire, which is all the way back in the 3.5 days so I can understand if lore has changed since them

[James Jacobs]

pixierose wrote:

EDIT: I REMEMBER. It was Legacy of Fire, which is all the way back in the 3.5 days so I can understand if lore has changed since them

Yup... a good example of lore changing for sure.

But also, we DO encourage and engage in a bit of deliberate contradiction when it comes to detailing events this far in the past, because that helps them to feel more like myths and less like facts. It also allows GMs to pick and choose what works best for their table as well.

[McaPhoo]

I'm wondering about the exact location of Bhopan. LO Impossible Lands says it is very near the equator, even saying it is surrounded by doldrums. The doldrums are only within about 5 degrees of the equator for earth. Assuming this is true for Golarion as well, that would put Bhopan far to the south of the rest of the Impossible Lands. From playing around with the globe, it appears that the distance from the Impossible Lands to the equator and Bhopan is about the same as the distance from the Impossible Lands to Druma. This feels like the correct location for Bhopan, despite its huge isolation for the rest of the Impossible Lands making it hard to think of it as being part of the same region.

However, in PFS Scenario 1-16 The Perennial Crown Part 1, Opal of Bhopan, Bhopan is stated to be "east of Nex". That feels like a fairly inaccurate description of its location now that LOIL is out, so I initially thought this was just a simple inconsistency because Bhopan hasn't been fully fleshed out in the first year of PF2's life.

However, LOIL also says that Mechitar is near the equator on page 143, even though it's supposed to be much closer to the topic of cancer going through the Mana Wastes. On its own, that could simply be stating that Mechitar is closer to the equator than the rest of the Inner Sea region, which is obviously true, but paired with the descriptions that Bhopan is near the equator and that Bhopan is "east of Nex", I'm wondering if that means Bhopan is actually much closer to the Impossible Lands that it should be. Or is this just a minor inconsistency?

[Virellius]

McaPhoo wrote:

-

I may be mistaken, but I thought Bhopan moved or something? Maybe I'm completely misremembering.

[GM_3826]

If only Lost Omens books outside the World Guide had detailed maps of each microregion... I'm guessing Bhopan is in fact east of Nex and the part about it and Mechitar being near the equator is the inconsistency, or else you'd think Bhopan would be outside the Inner Sea like southern Garund. Maybe this is a case of "writers do not understand geography" and the Impossible Lands are quite a ways from the equator.

[AFigureOfBlue]

The year of the Ruby Phoenix tournament in which the Pathfinder Society won the Hao Jin Tapestry seems to be given as two different years. The Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide gives 4711 AR as the year, but Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide, page 90, says "In 4713 AR, the team fielded by the Society won the tournament and secured the artifact known as the Hao Jin Tapestry".

[zimmerwald1915]

AFigureOfBlue wrote:

The year of the Ruby Phoenix tournament in which the Pathfinder Society won the Hao Jin Tapestry seems to be given as two different years. The Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide gives 4711 AR as the year, but Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide, page 90, says "In 4713 AR, the team fielded by the Society won the tournament and secured the artifact known as the Hao Jin Tapestry".

This is presumably referring to the PFS Year of the Ruby Phoenix. It ran from mid-2011 through mid-2012, and The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, the module, came out in January 2012.

[AFigureOfBlue]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

AFigureOfBlue wrote:

The year of the Ruby Phoenix tournament in which the Pathfinder Society won the Hao Jin Tapestry seems to be given as two different years. The Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide gives 4711 AR as the year, but Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide, page 90, says "In 4713 AR, the team fielded by the Society won the tournament and secured the artifact known as the Hao Jin Tapestry".

This is presumably referring to the PFS Year of the Ruby Phoenix. It ran from mid-2011 through mid-2012, and The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, the module, came out in January 2012.

Certainly, in terms of real-world release dates. But the tournament didn't happen in lore in both 4711 AR and 4713 AR, since it's a once-a-decade event, which is what the conflict is between these two sources. The Pathfinder Society couldn't have won the tournament in 4713 AR (per Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide) and the tournament have been held during 4711 AR (per the Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide).

[keftiu]

AFigureOfBlue wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

AFigureOfBlue wrote:

The year of the Ruby Phoenix tournament in which the Pathfinder Society won the Hao Jin Tapestry seems to be given as two different years. The Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide gives 4711 AR as the year, but Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide, page 90, says "In 4713 AR, the team fielded by the Society won the tournament and secured the artifact known as the Hao Jin Tapestry".

This is presumably referring to the PFS Year of the Ruby Phoenix. It ran from mid-2011 through mid-2012, and The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, the module, came out in January 2012.

Certainly, in terms of real-world release dates. But the tournament didn't happen in lore in both 4711 AR and 4713 AR, since it's a once-a-decade event, which is what the conflict is between these two sources. The Pathfinder Society couldn't have won the tournament in 4713 AR (per Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide) and the tournament have been held during 4711 AR (per the Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide).

AP releases have their start dates pegged to the setting in Golarion; as a 2021 release, we can know that FotRP is set in 4721, which puts the decade-prior tournament pretty clearly in 4711. That matches neatly with the PFS Year of the Ruby Phoenix beginning in 2011, and the old module came out just one the new year, so I'm inclined to hook it to 4711 as well.

Sounds like the Society Guide is the one that's wrong.

[Laclale♪]

Unless tournament took 2-3 year to decide winner.

[Temperans]

Honestly both would be wrong.

The book came in 2012 and the tournament takes 5 days.

PFS started in 2011 to lay down the groundwork for and "gather intelligence" for everything else that happens in that season of PFS. But in no way would they have been declared the winners in 2013, outside of the tournament stopping until then.

Fist of the Ruby Phoenix did come out in mid-2021 making the whole thing happen about 6 months earlier than the "once a decade". But honestly, +/- 6 months is a perfectly fine range of error for this type of stuff. Especially when considering that a big part of that discrepancy comes from IRL supply limitations.

[Andrew the Warwitch]

YlothofMerab wrote:

It has to do with the rules changes from 1e to 2e. Now that we have Arcane, Occult, Divine, and Primal fonts of magic, and Druids use primal magic, the setting lore runs into an issue. Should Rhahadoum be opposed to primal magic or not? They went with no. I assume that how this is explained in lore and rules books will get clearer and more refined with time.

Beyond that, I think there is an issue with the World Guide here, because I'm pretty sure oracles are still banned from the region despite not choosing to be able to tap into divine magic. And I think divine sorcerers would also be a problem.

My impression is that Rhahadoum has generated such a dislike and maybe even fear of anything that smacks of religion (never mind that the ruler has made himself basically a God-King) that they have outlawed anything divine. Anything Occult, Nature or Arcana is not divine so they allow it. I may be wrong, but that's what I observe.

[Andrew the Warwitch]

GM_3826 wrote:

Andrew the Warwitch wrote:

Another question I have is regarding the Houses of Taldor. Are the four or five common ones the only one? Or are there other houses as well? For instance, years back I had found a 3PP source that provided in depth information for House Branas. Liked what I read so I made my Taldan Fighter / Beastmaster from House Branas so he could have a companion animal who is now a large lion from the Taldek Plains that he can actually ride into battle.

Not sure this is a complete list, but the wiki lists fourteen extant houses. Seven of those were introduced in a specific PFS scenario or module, and out of those seven only one was mentioned once again in a Campaign Setting book. So it seems you can introduce minor noble houses into the setting whereever it suits the needs of your campaign. One thing to keep in mind is that like minor noble houses in real world history, they would only control only a portion of one of the major noble house's lands.

I had found that 3PP referring to House Branas, it was actually interesting...which gave me the idea of a fighter with a large lion battle companion. I am curious if that house is a thing or there is one similar.

[keftiu]

At least from what I can glean on, House Branas does not appear to be canon.

[Andrew the Warwitch]

keftiu wrote:

At least from what I can glean on, House Branas does not appear to be canon.

That's too bad. Means I will have to find a new house then.

[GM_3826]

Andrew the Warwitch wrote:

My impression is that Rhahadoum has generated such a dislike and maybe even fear of anything that smacks of religion (never mind that the ruler has made himself basically a God-King) that they have outlawed anything divine. Anything Occult, Nature or Arcana is not divine so they allow it. I may be wrong, but that's what I observe.

The thing about this is that it's super disrespectful to real world atheists. Some atheists are certainly jerks, but "atheism is just a religion" is getting into the kind of territory that makes many turn their nose up. Painting such a wide brush over those who don't even have unified beliefs and simply treat the claims of people who have been dead for hundreds if not thousands of years to know the mysteries of the universe with a degree of skepticism is bound to catch some perfectly reasonable people in the mix. I'm agnostic and don't really know who's supposed to be "right", but I certainly don't think skeptics should be treated with scorn.

It's also the opposite of how 2E lore has generally characterized "atheism", as in those who don't worship the gods. Gods & Magic explains that atheists range from simply "can't bring myself to pretend I care" to "why should I sell my soul to some all-powerful but fallible being", and those in the latter category have actually been portrayed positively. One of the things that 2E emphasizes is that Rahadoum revolutionized medicine, which is the ludonarrative explanation why the Medicine skill and prosthetics are so useful, and the Godcloaks from AoE are treated as similarly respectable.

It's not atheism is portrayed as correct, more that it's treated as a perfectly acceptable philosophy. After that effort to treat those with deviant beliefs with respect, I really don't want the most noteworthy faction to reject the gods in the setting to go back to being militant heretics who froth at the mouth at anything resembling the gods while also practicing their own blasphemous religion.

The Laws of Mortality were the end result of a holy war between the cults of three gods that nearly destroyed Rahadoum, so Rahadoum quite specifically rejects the gods. Oracles and sorcerers that didn't have any choice over their power have logically not done anything wrong, so why are they caught in the cross fire? Rahadoum is one of the most educated places in the Inner Sea region, which is also somewhat contrary to the idea that they are toxic atheists. Don't they have the tools and ability to recognize divine magic users that don't worship the gods?

[PossibleCabbage]

Rahadoum is canonically working with druids to address the desertification problem I thought. Probably the bright line here is that nature is largely egoless and druids disagreeing with each other about natural order is generally a thing that is resolved without spiraling violence.

Since the basis for Rahadoum's ardent atheism is all the "holy wars" that made it hard to live there.

Certainly there are people in Rahadoum who are uncomfortable about working with druids as that's too close to a religion, but no country should be a monolith and there ought to be internal tension; the main one in Rahadoum is the people who's atheism is mostly "I don't think about gods at all" and the people who believe vigilance is required to keep out bad ideas.

[GM_3826]

Don't get me wrong, my concern isn't that there shouldn't be intolerant atheists in Rahadoum. Realistically, those people would have to exist. I'm more concerned about the Laws of Mortality being portrayed as wrongthink. When state policy is to arrest those that are simply born the wrong way, as many sorcerers are, you start getting into "there is something fundamentally wrong with how these people think that needs to be corrected." There's a sweet spot in between "I don't think about gods at all" and "theists must be punished" where the focus is on convincing others to abandon the gods and otherwise leaving worshipers alone so long as they stay outside Rahadoum's borders. I think this suits the overall objective of rejecting the gods in order to create a more peaceful society better.

I'm not saying that this should necessarily be the majority belief. In fact it absolutely shouldn't. Just as there are militantly traditionalist factions of dwarves in places like Dongun Hold, there should be militant followers of the Laws of Mortality. But I'm worried that the basic premise of the Laws of Mortality will be called into question when thinking that theism should be abandoned as an outdated mode of thought is a perfectly respectable philosophy. It's not one I necessarily agree with or feel should be the majority, but I really respect how in a genre that was pioneered by devout Christians you can say in the Lost Omens setting that maybe religion isn't the way. I'd prefer we stick to that instead of having a focus in Rahadoum be violent persecution of anyone who glows.

[keftiu]

As I’ve said before; Rahadoum is Lawful Neutral, but consistently gets written like atheist Lawful Evil, and I find it a little exasperating.

You see significantly less of this in 2e, thankfully.

[PossibleCabbage]

It's generally better to talk about a people, a culture, a nation, etc. about what they're positively invested in (Science! Medicine! Arresting Desertification! Public Works!) rather than what they're not. How much a people care about Bobsledding is perhaps relevant to Switzerland or Germany, but definitely not to Thailand or Mexico.

Pretty much all of the animus about religion and theism happens at the border. If you were to find yourself in a Rahadoumi city you'd mostly find people going on about their lives much like you would in Absalom or Kintargo.

Like if you somehow avoided the Pure Legion checkpoint, it should take a little while to notice "wait a minute, there aren't any temples or priests anywhere." The Laws of Mortality aren't a new thing, Rahadoum has been remarkably stable under them for TWO AND A HALF THOUSAND YEARS.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

I do agree with the above, but also to be fair to the Rahadoumi agents rooting out divine magic, the odds that any given source of divine magic isn't a cleric attempting to subvert the laws must be very low.

Last I heard, I'm pretty sure sorcerers are supposed to be rare enough in the world that most people couldn't draw out any distinction. I don't know about oracles but I wouldn't bet on them being anywhere near as common as clerics, given that it seems they are chosen more than choose themselves. The only other source of divine magic we know of which can choose their own vocation is witch, which may as well be the same thing as a cleric for the purposes of laws banning deific influence.

Not to say their methods couldn't be updated, but it's understandable if they treat any source of divine magic as suspicious--though a little moderation to discern the actual cause of the magic seems fair and wise.

[keftiu]

I want to hear more about pioneering Rahadoumi magic and science much more than I want them to be the anti-religious police state. They’re the heirs to the Jistkans, for crying out loud; we should be hearing about their airships!

Let the atheism be culture when it takes the spotlight, not just some horror. The native dwarven ethnicity, the Vahird, cleave to the Laws of Mortality and are keepers of a magical oasis… I want stories like that, please.

[Temperans]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I do agree with the above, but also to be fair to the Rahadoumi agents rooting out divine magic, the odds that any given source of divine magic isn't a cleric attempting to subvert the laws must be very low.

Last I heard, I'm pretty sure sorcerers are supposed to be rare enough in the world that most people couldn't draw out any distinction. I don't know about oracles but I wouldn't bet on them being anywhere near as common as clerics, given that it seems they are chosen more than choose themselves. The only other source of divine magic we know of which can choose their own vocation is witch, which may as well be the same thing as a cleric for the purposes of laws banning deific influence.

Not to say their methods couldn't be updated, but it's understandable if they treat any source of divine magic as suspicious--though a little moderation to discern the actual cause of the magic seems fair and wise.

It really doesn't help that until recently all sorcerers and witches were considered arcane, so stories of them being persecuted in that region over divine magic were straight up not told. So, it's hard to reconcile outside of "divine sorcerer are very similar to oracles" and "divine witches are very similar to cleric".

"Moderation to see actual cause" does seem like something they would not due given how the view divine magic and how active their search for people breaking the rules is. Even more so when there are canon ways to make it seem like your magic is of a different type.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think the opposition to divine magic in Rahadoum is born less out of "it is dangerous to combine spiritual and vital essence" and more out of how historically a lot of churches had a quid pro quo for receiving things like "healing magic" (this is sort of the entire premise of the Church of Abadar FWIW.)

"You can receive healing if you contribute to the power, prestige, wealth, and social acceptability of these churches" is a problem whereas "we have public healthcare and modern medicine" isn't. If a divine sorcerer wants to heal people because they want to, well that person is an individual.

[Morhek]

There might be an argument that, if Sorcerers get their powers from an external source (ie; their bloodline) that might influence them - ie; devil, demon, celestial - there's just as much reason to believe they might try to set up some cults as there is for clerics. There's plenty of stories of sorcerers setting up charismatic cults, even without gods. But as I understand, it's less official policy and more that to a layman it's impossible to tell whether someone is a prepared or spontaneous caster without some investment of effort, and it's easier to just assume they're a cleric and tell them to get out. A "better safe than sorry" mindset. Otherwise, one would think Rahadoum would be hungry for divine sorcerers to make up for its dearth of healing clerics. The 1e Oracle iconic was thrown out because her family didn't know the difference and didn't want to risk it. I assume sorcerers, who like clerics don't need to put the investment in education that wizards or alchemists do, suffer from the same assumptions - that if you can just Do The Magic, it must be because of god stuff.

[The Raven Black]

Not to mention that Clerics could masquerade as other kinds of Divine casters. Heck, nothing prevents a Cleric from also being another kind of Divine caster.

Or a non-Cleric Divine caster from fervently worshipping a deity and trying to gain converts.

[keftiu]

Poking around in 1e sources, and the Serpent's Skull Player's Guide floats the idea that Half-Orcs are seen as a good omen to Bekyar mothers, a blessing from Lamashtu.

Do we have any clue who the Orc half of that equation might be? I can't see the demon-slaying Matanji being fond of the Lamashtan Bekyar beliefs mentioned here, but I don't know that we know other Mwangi Orcs. While it's easy to chalk this up to 1e's style (what could be edgier than an orc-blooded baby born to the demon cultists?), I do think there's a seed of something interesting there in seeing a non-Matanji group in the Expanse or further to the south (where we know there's Bekyar cities).

[PossibleCabbage]

Like the reason Mtanji orcs prize half-orcs is that they're interested in spreading their culture and customs to other people, and empirically they've found that half-orcs make better ambassadors and politicians working with non-orcs than do the rank and file Mtanji who are probably better trained in demon-fighting than glad-handing (or at least the half-orcs are better received by non-orcs, since orcs as a people are enthusiastic about what they're about.)

It feels like Bekyar half-orcs should be extremely rare since the Bekyar are an extremely insular and xenophobic culture, and particularly they are aware of the Orcs that they're most likely to encounter in the Mwangi Expanse are the Mtanji who are at least going to be extremely suspicious of Bekyar people because of the whole "infernal influence" thing.