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The other thing is that Pharasma is less comfortable doing things since she no longer knows what's going to happen in all cases ever since the Omens got Lost. But she's been through this sort of thing enough where someone's fate took thousands of years to play out, that she's not especially in a hurry to do things.
Pharasma is most likely the most powerful deity in existence, so she has reason to be cautious anyway.
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Remembered an old thread I'm curious about: what alignment is Maidrayne Vox, Centaur and Mistress of Blades for the Hellknight Order of the Nail?
I'd dug into her published history a while back, and it paints a confusing picture of things: a Centaur who abandoned her Chaotic Good family to serve under a Lawful Evil lictor whose mission is... colonizing her people's lands for Chelish human settlers. She's been printed as every single Lawful alignment, with LG being the most recent, despite no real redemption arc, changes in behavior, or reckoning with her working for a genocidal effort against the indigenous peoples of Varisia.
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When good deities meddle on that scale, they only do it to counter an evil deity or do it in subtle but crucial ways ("Wow, it's a good thing we found X just when we needed it" or "Thanks! We'd have been killed if you hadn't come along when you did!")
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Good is subtle, evil is magnificent.
Why do you think evil is more attractive?
Also, Aroden was never exactly a 'good' god, but even after he had become (or at least declared himself) a god, he straight up fought in wars against invaders trying to conquer Absalom. It's not that good (or at least hero-adjacent) deities never do anything and evil deities always do things...
Actually on that note, how common is it actually that evil deities act in an overt way? The example given is that Urgathoa... hid TB's soul cage for him? Aroden fought and was presumed to have killed TB. Urgathoa's action looks measured and reserved by comparison, possibly even in response. I know a couple of demon lords are involved in the Worldwound, but I'm not sure that demigods with statblocks necessarily count in this respect.
(Mind you we should hardly be comparing 'gets my hands in everything' Aroden's level of activity as a deity)
I've seen a lot of threads mention Pharasma as the first god, and that she survived the destruction of the previous Multiverse, but no reference as to where that's from - if anyone knows the source of this story I'd love to read it.
Assuming that's the case, is the story of Ihys and Asmodeus from 1E's Book of the Damned (specifically Book 1, Princes of Darkness) out of date? Or do we run into a "from a certain point of view" thing here that depends on which god you believe (in)?
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I've seen a lot of threads mention Pharasma as the first god, and that she survived the destruction of the previous Multiverse, but no reference as to where that's from - if anyone knows the source of this story I'd love to read it.
Assuming that's the case, is the story of Ihys and Asmodeus from 1E's Book of the Damned (specifically Book 1, Princes of Darkness) out of date? Or do we run into a "from a certain point of view" thing here that depends on which god you believe (in)?
Just a few years ago there was a series of mythologically-inspired short fiction on the blog called the Windsong Testaments. Among these was a story by James Jacobs (creative directorsaurus) called, "The Three Fears of Pharasma". In this narrative, the myth of how Pharasma the Survivor emerged from the previous reality and kindled the new, current reality, giving rise to 8 original deities in the process, each representing a different alignment, starting with the Speakers of the Depths (CN), Desna (CG), Sarenrae (NG), Ihys (LG), Achaekek (at the time LN), Asmodeus (LE), and an unnamed entity which lore-seekers might recognise in the form of the original daemon (NE). Rovagug (CE) can variously be interpreted as the last deity spawned in this way, or an all-consuming primordial hunger that supplanted the last deity.
The story itself can be found here; The Three Fears of Pharasma is one of my favourite of the Windsong Testaments alongside the Rage of Creation
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I like Pharasma being the first because she and only she is actively trying to stop (heavily slows) Groetus from destroying everything. Only she controls the realm that directs souls to the various planes (from where the planes are built). And only she is the one able to claim knowledge of the past and future (even if her predictions have been more uncertain recently).
I don't think it's Groetus so much as "The Maelstrom as elemental chaos erodes the rest of the universe". Groetus isn't trying to bring about anything in particular, he just has a role to play in the eventual end of things.
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The one thing that comes into question, isn't there also lore that implies Saranrae was once a lesser deity like an Empyreal Lord, and she ascended to full godhood when she gathered the various deities to seal away Rovagug?
I suppose both could be true.
I can't remember where I read that though so maybe I am mixing things up.
EDIT: I REMEMBER. It was Legacy of Fire, which is all the way back in the 3.5 days so I can understand if lore has changed since them
Creative Director
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EDIT: I REMEMBER. It was Legacy of Fire, which is all the way back in the 3.5 days so I can understand if lore has changed since them
Yup... a good example of lore changing for sure.
But also, we DO encourage and engage in a bit of deliberate contradiction when it comes to detailing events this far in the past, because that helps them to feel more like myths and less like facts. It also allows GMs to pick and choose what works best for their table as well.
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I may be mistaken, but I thought Bhopan moved or something? Maybe I'm completely misremembering.
The year of the Ruby Phoenix tournament in which the Pathfinder Society won the Hao Jin Tapestry seems to be given as two different years. The Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide gives 4711 AR as the year, but Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide, page 90, says "In 4713 AR, the team fielded by the Society won the tournament and secured the artifact known as the Hao Jin Tapestry".
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The year of the Ruby Phoenix tournament in which the Pathfinder Society won the Hao Jin Tapestry seems to be given as two different years. The Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide gives 4711 AR as the year, but Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide, page 90, says "In 4713 AR, the team fielded by the Society won the tournament and secured the artifact known as the Hao Jin Tapestry".
This is presumably referring to the PFS Year of the Ruby Phoenix. It ran from mid-2011 through mid-2012, and The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, the module, came out in January 2012.
The year of the Ruby Phoenix tournament in which the Pathfinder Society won the Hao Jin Tapestry seems to be given as two different years. The Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide gives 4711 AR as the year, but Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide, page 90, says "In 4713 AR, the team fielded by the Society won the tournament and secured the artifact known as the Hao Jin Tapestry".This is presumably referring to the PFS Year of the Ruby Phoenix. It ran from mid-2011 through mid-2012, and The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, the module, came out in January 2012.
Certainly, in terms of real-world release dates. But the tournament didn't happen in lore in both 4711 AR and 4713 AR, since it's a once-a-decade event, which is what the conflict is between these two sources. The Pathfinder Society couldn't have won the tournament in 4713 AR (per Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide) and the tournament have been held during 4711 AR (per the Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide).
Certainly, in terms of real-world release dates. But the tournament didn't happen in lore in both 4711 AR and 4713 AR, since it's a once-a-decade event, which is what the conflict is between these two sources. The Pathfinder Society couldn't have won the tournament in 4713 AR (per Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide) and the tournament have been held during 4711 AR (per the Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide).The year of the Ruby Phoenix tournament in which the Pathfinder Society won the Hao Jin Tapestry seems to be given as two different years. The Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player's Guide gives 4711 AR as the year, but Lost Omens Pathfinder Society Guide, page 90, says "In 4713 AR, the team fielded by the Society won the tournament and secured the artifact known as the Hao Jin Tapestry".This is presumably referring to the PFS Year of the Ruby Phoenix. It ran from mid-2011 through mid-2012, and The Ruby Phoenix Tournament, the module, came out in January 2012.
AP releases have their start dates pegged to the setting in Golarion; as a 2021 release, we can know that FotRP is set in 4721, which puts the decade-prior tournament pretty clearly in 4711. That matches neatly with the PFS Year of the Ruby Phoenix beginning in 2011, and the old module came out just one the new year, so I'm inclined to hook it to 4711 as well.
Sounds like the Society Guide is the one that's wrong.
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It has to do with the rules changes from 1e to 2e. Now that we have Arcane, Occult, Divine, and Primal fonts of magic, and Druids use primal magic, the setting lore runs into an issue. Should Rhahadoum be opposed to primal magic or not? They went with no. I assume that how this is explained in lore and rules books will get clearer and more refined with time.Beyond that, I think there is an issue with the World Guide here, because I'm pretty sure oracles are still banned from the region despite not choosing to be able to tap into divine magic. And I think divine sorcerers would also be a problem.
My impression is that Rhahadoum has generated such a dislike and maybe even fear of anything that smacks of religion (never mind that the ruler has made himself basically a God-King) that they have outlawed anything divine. Anything Occult, Nature or Arcana is not divine so they allow it. I may be wrong, but that's what I observe.
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Another question I have is regarding the Houses of Taldor. Are the four or five common ones the only one? Or are there other houses as well? For instance, years back I had found a 3PP source that provided in depth information for House Branas. Liked what I read so I made my Taldan Fighter / Beastmaster from House Branas so he could have a companion animal who is now a large lion from the Taldek Plains that he can actually ride into battle.Not sure this is a complete list, but the wiki lists fourteen extant houses. Seven of those were introduced in a specific PFS scenario or module, and out of those seven only one was mentioned once again in a Campaign Setting book. So it seems you can introduce minor noble houses into the setting whereever it suits the needs of your campaign. One thing to keep in mind is that like minor noble houses in real world history, they would only control only a portion of one of the major noble house's lands.
I had found that 3PP referring to House Branas, it was actually interesting...which gave me the idea of a fighter with a large lion battle companion. I am curious if that house is a thing or there is one similar.
At least from what I can glean on, House Branas does not appear to be canon.
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Rahadoum is canonically working with druids to address the desertification problem I thought. Probably the bright line here is that nature is largely egoless and druids disagreeing with each other about natural order is generally a thing that is resolved without spiraling violence.
Since the basis for Rahadoum's ardent atheism is all the "holy wars" that made it hard to live there.
Certainly there are people in Rahadoum who are uncomfortable about working with druids as that's too close to a religion, but no country should be a monolith and there ought to be internal tension; the main one in Rahadoum is the people who's atheism is mostly "I don't think about gods at all" and the people who believe vigilance is required to keep out bad ideas.
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As I’ve said before; Rahadoum is Lawful Neutral, but consistently gets written like atheist Lawful Evil, and I find it a little exasperating.
You see significantly less of this in 2e, thankfully.
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It's generally better to talk about a people, a culture, a nation, etc. about what they're positively invested in (Science! Medicine! Arresting Desertification! Public Works!) rather than what they're not. How much a people care about Bobsledding is perhaps relevant to Switzerland or Germany, but definitely not to Thailand or Mexico.
Pretty much all of the animus about religion and theism happens at the border. If you were to find yourself in a Rahadoumi city you'd mostly find people going on about their lives much like you would in Absalom or Kintargo.
Like if you somehow avoided the Pure Legion checkpoint, it should take a little while to notice "wait a minute, there aren't any temples or priests anywhere." The Laws of Mortality aren't a new thing, Rahadoum has been remarkably stable under them for TWO AND A HALF THOUSAND YEARS.
I do agree with the above, but also to be fair to the Rahadoumi agents rooting out divine magic, the odds that any given source of divine magic isn't a cleric attempting to subvert the laws must be very low.
Last I heard, I'm pretty sure sorcerers are supposed to be rare enough in the world that most people couldn't draw out any distinction. I don't know about oracles but I wouldn't bet on them being anywhere near as common as clerics, given that it seems they are chosen more than choose themselves. The only other source of divine magic we know of which can choose their own vocation is witch, which may as well be the same thing as a cleric for the purposes of laws banning deific influence.
Not to say their methods couldn't be updated, but it's understandable if they treat any source of divine magic as suspicious--though a little moderation to discern the actual cause of the magic seems fair and wise.
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I want to hear more about pioneering Rahadoumi magic and science much more than I want them to be the anti-religious police state. They’re the heirs to the Jistkans, for crying out loud; we should be hearing about their airships!
Let the atheism be culture when it takes the spotlight, not just some horror. The native dwarven ethnicity, the Vahird, cleave to the Laws of Mortality and are keepers of a magical oasis… I want stories like that, please.
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I think the opposition to divine magic in Rahadoum is born less out of "it is dangerous to combine spiritual and vital essence" and more out of how historically a lot of churches had a quid pro quo for receiving things like "healing magic" (this is sort of the entire premise of the Church of Abadar FWIW.)
"You can receive healing if you contribute to the power, prestige, wealth, and social acceptability of these churches" is a problem whereas "we have public healthcare and modern medicine" isn't. If a divine sorcerer wants to heal people because they want to, well that person is an individual.
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There might be an argument that, if Sorcerers get their powers from an external source (ie; their bloodline) that might influence them - ie; devil, demon, celestial - there's just as much reason to believe they might try to set up some cults as there is for clerics. There's plenty of stories of sorcerers setting up charismatic cults, even without gods. But as I understand, it's less official policy and more that to a layman it's impossible to tell whether someone is a prepared or spontaneous caster without some investment of effort, and it's easier to just assume they're a cleric and tell them to get out. A "better safe than sorry" mindset. Otherwise, one would think Rahadoum would be hungry for divine sorcerers to make up for its dearth of healing clerics. The 1e Oracle iconic was thrown out because her family didn't know the difference and didn't want to risk it. I assume sorcerers, who like clerics don't need to put the investment in education that wizards or alchemists do, suffer from the same assumptions - that if you can just Do The Magic, it must be because of god stuff.
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Poking around in 1e sources, and the Serpent's Skull Player's Guide floats the idea that Half-Orcs are seen as a good omen to Bekyar mothers, a blessing from Lamashtu.
Do we have any clue who the Orc half of that equation might be? I can't see the demon-slaying Matanji being fond of the Lamashtan Bekyar beliefs mentioned here, but I don't know that we know other Mwangi Orcs. While it's easy to chalk this up to 1e's style (what could be edgier than an orc-blooded baby born to the demon cultists?), I do think there's a seed of something interesting there in seeing a non-Matanji group in the Expanse or further to the south (where we know there's Bekyar cities).
Like the reason Mtanji orcs prize half-orcs is that they're interested in spreading their culture and customs to other people, and empirically they've found that half-orcs make better ambassadors and politicians working with non-orcs than do the rank and file Mtanji who are probably better trained in demon-fighting than glad-handing (or at least the half-orcs are better received by non-orcs, since orcs as a people are enthusiastic about what they're about.)
It feels like Bekyar half-orcs should be extremely rare since the Bekyar are an extremely insular and xenophobic culture, and particularly they are aware of the Orcs that they're most likely to encounter in the Mwangi Expanse are the Mtanji who are at least going to be extremely suspicious of Bekyar people because of the whole "infernal influence" thing.
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According to the wiki, it's mentioned in the backmatter of book 5 of Hell's Vengeance that Cheliax lost Khari, the province they annexed from Rahadoum. The Firebrands book backs this up by stating that complications have arisen in Rahadoum since while the Firebrands oppose the First Law, they have supported the state of Rahadoum by informing them of Cheliax's plans to retake Khari. It's safe to say that this is correct, but the Character Guide states that Khari is still under Cheliax's control when it mentions the Order of the Wall. So, how is that order doing?
It’s been said that the HV chapter is non-canon by James Jacobs… but seems to have largely played out in 2e anyway, which is a little confusing.
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Not to mention that Clerics could masquerade as other kinds of Divine casters. Heck, nothing prevents a Cleric from also being another kind of Divine caster.
Or a non-Cleric Divine caster from fervently worshipping a deity and trying to gain converts.
I had missed this comment back in February, but one of my players did something like this in the Iron Gods adventure path.
The party had been adventuring as technologists in Numeria under false names, because the Technic League wanted a monopoly on the alien technology found in Numeria. They switched back to their true identities whenever they returned home to Torch for crafting. In the 5th module, Palace of Fallen Stars, the party went to Starfall, the capital city where the Technic League had its headquarters. And they slipped under the notice of the Technic League by walking into the city under their real names as known residents of Torch: Inconspicuous PCs Unmotivated in Palace of Fallen Stars.
One party member, the strix skald Kirii, could not safely use her true identity. She was the only strix in Numeria, or one out of two for people who believed that the strix concert singer Kirii and the strix adventurer Nightingale were two different people, so the Technic League would be suspicious of any strix. Therefore, Kirii disguised herself as a winged-aasimer 3rd-level cleric of Desna named Dove. She had a lyrakien skald Tay as a Leadership cohort, so to elaborate on the disguise they pretended that Tay was a divine guide sent to her by Desna. She could cast Cure Light Wounds from her skald spell list, so most people thought she could cast cleric spells. To further muddle her activities, she sometimes used her Greater Hat of Disguise to make her wings invisible and pretended to be a human bard named Robin.
A 12th-level character has a lot of resources for pretending to be a different 3rd-level character. Since most ordinary people think gaining 3rd-level abilities requires a lot of dedication to a single class, using very similar abilities with a little deception makes the fake class very convincing.
On the subject of hidden clerics in Rahadoum, gods inclined toward Trickery might appreciate a good disguise on their clerics. For example, Norgorber's edicts are "keep your true identity secret, sacrifice anyone necessary, take every advantage in a fight, work from the shadows," so keeping the cleric aspect of the true identity secret and conducting worship services in the shadows would please Norgorber. For a good tricky god, Chaldira Zuzaristan's clerics follow the edict, "seek out and challenge oppressors and tyrants, defend friends and the innocent, engage in mischief that doesn’t harm others," and will be troubled by not openingly challenging the oppression of religion but will be happy that supporting secret worship of Chaldira counts as mischief.
Multiclassing would be the best way to hide clerics. The best multiclass would be another class taking a Cleric Dedication, because they have the full vocation of the base class to present to the public. The best multiclasses for a base class cleric would display abilities that clerics lack, such as arcane spellcasting. A 3rd-level warpriest could pretend to be a soldier without multiclassing, with medium armor training and martial weapon training. But they cannot pretend to be fighter class unless they pretend to be two levels lower, due to trained proficiency rather than expert proficiency. A 4th-level warpriest with Fighter Dedication and Opportunist archetype feat could convincingly pretend to be a 2nd-level fighter.
Yet having the hidden clerics in Rahadoum serve mostly deceptive gods could affect the folklore in Rahadoum. The authorities could reasonably point out that the gods are deceptive.
Supporting a hidden band of worshipers might make an interesting campaign.
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I guess the Pure Legion must have some intriguing ways to detect hidden worshippers and deceptive spies. After all, Norgorber's faithfuls were among Rahadoum's original targets.
Too bad the Hellknights seem so devoted to Asmodeus. The two organizations could exchange juicy trade secrets.
Are they devoted to Asmodeus? The Godclaw and Thrune's bootlickers, sure, but I don't think the Orders of the Pike or Torrent have much to do with him, and I haven't seen anything implying Lictor Vidoc (of the Chain) is a devout follower.
Hell is a lot more than the guy sitting on top.
I love digging into the rich lore of Pathfinder, but there is one thing I can’t quite wrap my head around. What is the relationship between the Monad and the cycle of souls?
How souls and the afterlife works has been described in detail. From what I understand, souls are formed from unaligned potentiality and when mortals die, they are judged by Pharasma, lose their memories and eventually (after some time as petitioners and/or outsiders) merge with the planes. Planar stuff is then eroded by the Maelstrom and once again becomes unaligned potentiality.
Seems simple enough. Mortal life is the way quintessence chooses how it is distributed among the planes, and eventually each soul’s journey comes full circle.
But then… How does the Monad fit into this? The Monad is said to exist both within and outside the Multiverse and represents the “transcendental undersoul of all life”. While it is most strongly connected to the aeons, mortal souls are also said to be emanations of the Monad. Concordance of Rivals even seems to hint that the Monad existed prior to the current iteration of reality and remembers what came before.
So… How does this work? On one hand, souls are described as temporary units of self-determining quintessence that are constantly created and destroyed, and on the other hand, they are described as manifestations of a greater (possibly timeless) entity with its own mysterious goals, almost akin to the Force in Star Wars.
Both are cool concepts, but they seem mutually exclusive, at least on the surface.