I guess the question is how valuable does Paizo see it to pair a 1-10 AP with an 11-20 AP. Since as an entirely standalone thing, a 6-15 AP works, but there's probably some value in having your Abominations Vault group also go and win the Ruby Phoenix tournament.
Personally, I wouldn't have that much interest just since I love seeing characters go all the way from levels 1 to 20, and the way the 3-part APs are set up now, it's easy to still form a 1-20 campaign from a 1-10 and an 11-20. Fitting a 6-15 AP into a full 1-20 campaign would necessitate starting with a low-level standalone like Malevolence and ending with a high-level one like Night of the Gray Death. Which is doable, but feels a lot less natural.
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Please let us know! This is something I've been VERY interested in exploring, but I'm also a bit nervous about how folks might react to a "middle" Adventure Path like this.
I’d be very into it, because it seems like it opens up some novel stories - this has always felt like the level range for stories about “mortal intrigue” to me, and not every war or conspiracy needs to be solved by level 20 demigods.
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One thing I would like is if there's a middle adventure path, to also make sure there be two standalone adventures for the 1-5 and the 16+ so you wouldn't be creating level 6 characters from scratch if you don't like that and also to be able to put a button on those character's careers.
One thing I would like is if there's a middle adventure path, to also make sure there be two standalone adventures for the 1-5 and the 16+ so you wouldn't be creating level 6 characters from scratch if you don't like that and also to be able to put a button on those character's careers.
Yeah, this is my only qualm. I think 6-15 is a great level range for a story, starting out as established heroes and not ending as a demigod. I just want more options to lead into such an adventure path and continue it once it's over.
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I like the idea actually. In the current system 1-10 seems too low and 10-20 seems too high, but a 6-15 campaign kind hits the sweet spot for a shorter AP imo. It allows the adventure to span a broader range of challenges and maintaining a smaller scope without flying off into the zaniness of high level play. I also feel like it would help the APs feel more complete without having to combine two disparate campaigns into one.
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I personally would love this.
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I'm a big fan of the idea - as others have said, there are a lot of stories that seem like they fit into this level range really well. You start off as people who are likely known in a local area but still involved primarily in more grounded plots, and end up very powerful but not to the extent that you're going up against the biggest movers and shakers in the setting.
I think that works nicely for some existing stories the AP line has told - War for the Crown seems like it could work easily in that band, for example. In general, it allows you to not become the most powerful force in a story, which naturally fits in with stories that revolve around intrigue and mystery. It also allows for you to set a story in a more dangerous part of the world without having the expectation that you'll permanently resolve the threat - a 6-15 AP set near Tar-Baphon definitely doesn't have the expectation that you'll be stopping him. For example, we've had a couple of APs in the Runelords trilogy, and each time there's been a big world-changing consequence to them. That's definitely cool, but it'd also be cool to have an AP where you see the Runelords for the terrifyingly powerful people they are, without ever getting strong enough to beat them. Off the top of my head, a 6-15 AP where you play as figures in the Linnorm Kingdom of Southmoor trying to stop Runelord Belimarius from taking over the area could be a lot of fun - you've got lots of hooks for potential 6th level characters being there like the fey of Grungir Forest, and given the level range I think it'd be satisfying to stop the invasion but not charge into New Thassilon and defeat Belimarius, or something like that. You could even make a bargain with some of the powerful fey in Grungir Forest - never getting to those highest levels means that something like making a deal with a Norn would feel binding and a big deal.
That element of "there's always a bigger fish" that it maintains is probably one of my favourite things about this level range. It allows for you to feel like you're in over your head while still playing with the big stories of the setting. It also works well for more morally-dubious APs - being morally questionable because you're working with/for an evil source and never get the power required to directly confront them seems an interesting AP. There's also the fact that we now know that just about all APs are canon in the ongoing setting, and that means we've had a lot of big changes in the last ~decade of the setting. Level 6-15 APs would allow for stories that allow you to meaningfully grapple with the big things happening in the setting, but with less pressure to resolve them entirely, which I think works nicely for the ongoing setting development.
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There's been chatter about a Brevoy civil war/"Choral returns" AP, and I think that's the perfect level range who start off as nobles of some substance and end up known across the nation.
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A lot of the "let's do politics" stories would work well for 6-15. You're important enough to get people to pay attention to you, but you can't just decide say "let's just go beat up Abrogial Thrune" (who, last time we checked, was level 18 so would have a bad time against a level 20 party).
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A lot of the "let's do politics" stories would work well for 6-15. You're important enough to get people to pay attention to you, but you can't just decide say "let's just go beat up Abrogial Thrune" (who, last time we checked, was level 18 so would have a bad time against a level 20 party).
Beating up on Thrune, the Brevic civil war, cleaning out bandits and cruel lords around rural Tian Xia, assassinating Razmir... anything where the opposition is still largely "people" fits really well, which excites me. I'm not that fond of saving the world every time.
EDIT: Does Hashim ibn Sayyid have a canon level? I'd love a story about taking him down. A
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I don't think the Inner Sea at least has any "heads of state" level people who are powerful enough to stand up to a Level 20 party that really has it out for them. Razimir is 19th level, Thrune is 18th level, there might be someone in Vyre who's 20th level (the King of Keys?) but there's not like "an entire party of them".
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I don't think the Inner Sea at least has any "heads of state" level people who are powerful enough to stand up to a Level 20 party that really has it out for them. Razimir is 19th level, Thrune is 18th level, there might be someone in Vyre who's 20th level (the King of Keys?) but there's not like "an entire party of them".
Vyre would be your best bet, from the areas of the setting I'm familiar with at least. If you somehow managed to unite the rulers of the city, you'd be facing a 5-person party with levels of (roughly, some of these have monster HD in PF1 and I'm doing a rough estimate for conversion): 20, 20 (by pf1 rules would be 22 but that feels a bit much), 19, 19, and 16. That'd be pretty tricky for a standard 4-person party!
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I don't think the Inner Sea at least has any "heads of state" level people who are powerful enough to stand up to a Level 20 party that really has it out for them. Razimir is 19th level, Thrune is 18th level, there might be someone in Vyre who's 20th level (the King of Keys?) but there's not like "an entire party of them".
Geb is a level 23 necromancer, but yeah, he's the exception to the rule.
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I don't think the Inner Sea at least has any "heads of state" level people who are powerful enough to stand up to a Level 20 party that really has it out for them. Razimir is 19th level, Thrune is 18th level, there might be someone in Vyre who's 20th level (the King of Keys?) but there's not like "an entire party of them".
There's not many, and that's kind of by design. Folks have pointed out a few here though (Geb, for one, and Vyre's leaders for another). Sorshen is certainly one, as could be Belimarius if she can catch a break and get some power-ups. Tar-Baphon, of course. Treerazer too.
Plus, the levels we've given NPCs can be though of as baselines. If/when we or you get to the point where you want to tell a story about any of them, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that by the time the PCs confront the NPC, they're whatever level the story needs them to be. That's what we did back in the day with Curse of the Crimson Throne—as that campaign came out, we established Queen Ileosa as being like 3rd level or thereabouts. Her rise in power is sort of an arms-race with the party, with her staying a few levels ahead of them as the entire Adventure Path goes on so that when the final confrontation comes, she's able to put up a good fight.
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I think the thing is that there are satisfying political stories about reforming a troubled place or deposing a bad leader that do not require the party to be at the apex of PC power. But they probably need the party to be high enough level to really carry some weight, which is where I think "the middle levels" 3-part AP would really be great.
Like Hell's Rebels was my favorite AP in first edition, and you could have ended the story after you depose Barzillai. The last part where the entire city is haunted and the party has to go to Hell was cool, but I don't think it's necessary to raise the stakes that much every time we want to change how a nation goes about its business. I mean, immortality at 20th level for Wizards is no longer necessarily a thing in PF2 (immortality being a lot harder to come by now) but I kind of liked the idea that Razmir was getting desperate to reach the acme of the power a mortal wizard could achieve before his time runs out, which is a thing that "promoting him so he wouldn't be a pushover for 20th level PCs" would kind of undermine.
There are assuredly a bunch of high level "reform this place" stories that could work, but lots of places that don't merit attention from "cosmically powerful heroes" could use the helping hand of a group of do-gooding PCs. So that's what I think the 6-15 level range would be really, really good for.
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I love this idea! It's really the sweet spot of d20 power levels.
Also more 11-20 Adventure Paths, please!
I love this idea! It's really the sweet spot of d20 power levels.
Also more 11-20 Adventure Paths, please!
Have you seen that Stolen Fate is coming? It’s the second 11-20.
Something that I think would be a cool variant on this, would be to do a 3 part AP that starts at level 5, and ended about the same place as book 4s generally end. Then have the core adventure be something similar in structure to shattered star, where the adventures are pretty site specific investigations of cool ruins around Golarion. Then what ties them together is finding pieces of some kind of artifact that makes sense to the AP…
But structure the AP so the artifact can easily be switched out, perhaps with other artificers structures in similar ways to increase in power, so that GMs can very easily use almost any introductory module or there own home brew to set up the adventure and easily substitute in the artifact that works best for their larger narrative. It would end in time to let GMs have one or two more modules of adventure afterwards where they use this artifact for its intended purpose.
I get that, done badly this would feel like generic dungeon delving, but done well, with Jacobs’ flair shown in Abomination vaults, this could be a great opportunity to fill in less “politically important” places on the map that could use more connected love than can usually happen in a PFS scenario or a single module.
For example, it could be a cool place to fill in more depth to some under represented ancestries by showing us some sites of their past that don’t have to reach to a full world shifting conclusion.
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This is something I've been hoping for since we got 3-parts APs and I am delighted to see so many other people would like it.
I feel it is the range with the greatest verisimilitude too. You don't go from 1st level noob to all-powerful 20th-level world-shaking hero within a few months.
You start pretty powerful / important already and grow in power to match established powers-that-be. Which is IMO the best level to end a campaign.
Also this way you start with already a few nice tricks under your belt.
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I'd love to see 6-15 APs myself, though I will add a caveat. If this is to be explored long form adventures like the recently released Crown of the Kobold King or The Dragon's Demand from 1st edition would help a lot in getting the characters up to level, and maybe high level adventures to round out the character's journey.
Basically, with these shorter APs that we're blessed with I would love to be able to run a modular campaign, with separate stories but the same characters.
I’m super curious how well Gatewalkers and Stolen Fate feel together as one campaign. The promise of swapping 1-10s and 11-20s has always been great, but none of the options have felt like great lead-ins to FotRP, so I have high hopes here.
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I’m super curious how well Gatewalkers and Stolen Fate feel together as one campaign. The promise of swapping 1-10s and 11-20s has always been great, but none of the options have felt like great lead-ins to FotRP, so I have high hopes here.
Having written the last volume of Gatewalkers and developed all of Stolen Fate...
...apart from the levels matching up well, they won't really match up at all as one campaign.
That's fine, of course. But just to manage expectations, these two Adventure Paths are VERY different.
Stolen Fate does offer some advice on how to start up with a group of 11th level PCs from ANY 1st to 10th level Adventure Path though, since Stolen Fate starting with "You're all famous adventurers and that's why (INITIAL EVENT OF STOLEN FATE) happens to you and not someone else."
There's maybe a bit more organic links between some stuff that I'm working on now along these lines, but those announcements are several months away I suspect.
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I hope Stolen Fates have new player backgrounds just like Fist of Ruby Phoenix :3
In what way?
I've already written the Stolen Fate Player's Guide, and there are six new backgrounds in there, so if you're just hoping for new backgrounds then I've got you covered.
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I hope Stolen Fates have new player backgrounds just like Fist of Ruby Phoenix :3In what way?
I've already written the Stolen Fate Player's Guide, and there are six new backgrounds in there, so if you're just hoping for new backgrounds then I've got you covered.
Backgrounds are one of my favorite parts of every new AP. I love having the constraint to work around in character creation, using the pre-packaged bits they offer.
Can't wait to see them for Gatewalkers and Stolen Fate both!
I wonder if it's workable to give people two backgrounds in case they're bringing in a character from a 1-10 AP (from which they have a background) to a 11-20 AP (which has new backgrounds). You probably wouldn't want to give the extra stat increases, but backgrounds are mostly otherwise training in some skills and a skill feat right?
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I wonder if it's workable to give people two backgrounds in case they're bringing in a character from a 1-10 AP (from which they have a background) to a 11-20 AP (which has new backgrounds). You probably wouldn't want to give the extra stat increases, but backgrounds are mostly otherwise training in some skills and a skill feat right?
I don't feel that this is workable. In addition, having brand new flavor added to a character's backstory in the middle of their adventuring career feels awkward as well.
If you're bringing an established character into an adventure that starts at higher than 1st level, I think you just end up missing out on custom backgrounds for that campaign.
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I'm neutral to the idea, so I can just play advocate for Asmodeus:
'But wait, my group starts at 1st Level. How do we just build 6th Level PCs? There's no background, no adventuring history or character development. Jeepers I hope you don't do this!
(One answer is to use PFS to build up. But I think maybe an even better answer may be to have a 'Before The Adventure' section that gives good ideas for adventures pre-AP (if you list a few specific PFS Scenarios all the better!) in the same way traditional APs have a 'Continuing the Campaign' section. Just add an extra page of content on it from somewhere else.
'But wait, my group LOVES low-level. Few HP means everything is scary; few resources means you have to roleplay and think outside-the-box instead of just hulk-smash/murder-hobo. The PCs aren't so christmas-treed with twinkling magic items that the DM just has to tear up the flip mat in frustration. Low level is better!
I'm not sure what you do here, but you know lots of gamers like this.
....And don't forget, back in the day MANY gamers were not satisfied with APs ending at 15th-17th Level. That was the standard and most of us raged against the machine: 'We want to go to 20th!
I'd be interested in them, but the main "issue" with them is there's not really much of a 'capstone' to end with - level 10 feats nad level 20 feats tend to be impressive in their own right (to the point some classes just have better level 10 feats than 12, for instance). This isn't a REAL issue but I can see where it may result in feelbad, especially since at 15 you don't even get a class feat.
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My opinion is that there shouldn't ever have been an absolute or unbendable fixed range. Back when Paizo went from Dungeon to Pathfinder I argued that whatever brilliant, novel, amazing idea or concept was introduced for an adventure that the editing team or publisher would determine level-range based on the demands of the incredible and novel adventure idea. This way, when a genius idea comes forward, it gets to breathe on its own, gets to be developed into its best version of itself -- rather than be adjusted to a cookie-cutter shape, shoe-horned into a strictly formatted AP. Fifteen years ago (or so) that argument was pretty well shot down to dust; it's just so much easier to run a publishing company on more 'fixed' calendars. (I remember vocally championing the dawn of the 3-Part AP when it was introduced because it is so much more like what I argued for back in, what, '07, '08? or thereabouts.
In any case, I'm happy to hear Paizo is considering (even considering) loosening up its strict, fixed format for what published adventures Have to be.
That being said I really do appreciate that the 6 part APs do top out at 20th level (since high level play is less work than it used to be) rather than hitting 17th, or 18th, or wherever the XP runs out.
I’m super curious how well Gatewalkers and Stolen Fate feel together as one campaign. The promise of swapping 1-10s and 11-20s has always been great, but none of the options have felt like great lead-ins to FotRP, so I have high hopes here.Having written the last volume of Gatewalkers and developed all of Stolen Fate...
...apart from the levels matching up well, they won't really match up at all as one campaign.
That's fine, of course. But just to manage expectations, these two Adventure Paths are VERY different.
Stolen Fate does offer some advice on how to start up with a group of 11th level PCs from ANY 1st to 10th level Adventure Path though, since Stolen Fate starting with "You're all famous adventurers and that's why (INITIAL EVENT OF STOLEN FATE) happens to you and not someone else."
There's maybe a bit more organic links between some stuff that I'm working on now along these lines, but those announcements are several months away I suspect.
Just for fun, which of the 1-10 APs do you think segues most naturally into Stolen Fate?
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Just for fun, which of the 1-10 APs do you think segues most naturally into Stolen Fate?I’m super curious how well Gatewalkers and Stolen Fate feel together as one campaign. The promise of swapping 1-10s and 11-20s has always been great, but none of the options have felt like great lead-ins to FotRP, so I have high hopes here.Having written the last volume of Gatewalkers and developed all of Stolen Fate...
...apart from the levels matching up well, they won't really match up at all as one campaign.
That's fine, of course. But just to manage expectations, these two Adventure Paths are VERY different.
Stolen Fate does offer some advice on how to start up with a group of 11th level PCs from ANY 1st to 10th level Adventure Path though, since Stolen Fate starting with "You're all famous adventurers and that's why (INITIAL EVENT OF STOLEN FATE) happens to you and not someone else."
There's maybe a bit more organic links between some stuff that I'm working on now along these lines, but those announcements are several months away I suspect.
Abomination Vaults.
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Abomination Vaults.Just for fun, which of the 1-10 APs do you think segues most naturally into Stolen Fate?I’m super curious how well Gatewalkers and Stolen Fate feel together as one campaign. The promise of swapping 1-10s and 11-20s has always been great, but none of the options have felt like great lead-ins to FotRP, so I have high hopes here.Having written the last volume of Gatewalkers and developed all of Stolen Fate...
...apart from the levels matching up well, they won't really match up at all as one campaign.
That's fine, of course. But just to manage expectations, these two Adventure Paths are VERY different.
Stolen Fate does offer some advice on how to start up with a group of 11th level PCs from ANY 1st to 10th level Adventure Path though, since Stolen Fate starting with "You're all famous adventurers and that's why (INITIAL EVENT OF STOLEN FATE) happens to you and not someone else."
There's maybe a bit more organic links between some stuff that I'm working on now along these lines, but those announcements are several months away I suspect.
As someone currently running Abomination Vaults and prematurely daydreaming about what to do for levels 11-20, this excites me greatly.
I would like that personally.
As an alternative to making a 6-15 AP however, you could also make the normal 1-20 AP to be easier to start from the second book. Generally people can start from second part of an AP, but there's variable difficulty/adapting work that needs to be done. Even if you don't write the AP structure itself with 'making it more viable to start from second book' in mind, a small section for suggestions how to adapt the AP if you start in media res will be nice.
Have you seen that Stolen Fate is coming? It’s the second 11-20.I love this idea! It's really the sweet spot of d20 power levels.
Also more 11-20 Adventure Paths, please!
What's the first one?
What's the first one?
Ruby Phoenix.
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Great discussion. It reawakened my desire for a system where a group can have MORE than one grand adventure in their lifetimes. Like Conan, you know? I feel 2E AD&D was like that, and I miss it.
Maybe PF 3E will be like that. I predict it will be rules-lite, because that’s where TTRPGs are headed, and at that point it should be easier to accomplish what I want.
That said, I am rules-heavy guy myself, so the ultimate solution to my desires would be if all the APs were nerfed to give half the XP they give. Then one group could have several big adventures in their lifeftimes (4x trilogies basically).
you can just do that yourself. enjoy rebuilding every encounter after book 1
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Great discussion. It reawakened my desire for a system where a group can have MORE than one grand adventure in their lifetimes. Like Conan, you know? I feel 2E AD&D was like that, and I miss it.
Maybe PF 3E will be like that. I predict it will be rules-lite, because that’s where TTRPGs are headed, and at that point it should be easier to accomplish what I want.
That said, I am rules-heavy guy myself, so the ultimate solution to my desires would be if all the APs were nerfed to give half the XP they give. Then one group could have several big adventures in their lifeftimes (4x trilogies basically).
That is an intriguing challenge. We know how to play in easy mode by adding a level or two to the PCs, but I feel you would indeed need to twist the stats pretty extensively.
Say you want to play a 1-10 AP at half-speed, a theoretical 6-15 at normal speed, and then a 11-20 at half-speed again. You would still need to make many adjustments. And your players would linger twice as long at every level.
Not sure they would enjoy that.
It would not really go with the "multiple great adventures", but in theory one could go with a mind-bending adventure where multiple AP's are happening in parallel. Optimally some with enough downtime built in, that you can explain the PC's consciousness shifting between them, without anything too important happening in the meantime.
Then you should be able to halve/third/etc all rewards and go wild :)
How many of those 13 encounters are avoidable? Either through stealth, diplomacy, or any other non-combat solution? I do not use XP (I use milestone leveling) but if I did, I would award my players XP for avoiding encounters, or more likely just lump all the XP from various encounters like this into a sum and award it when the objective is met, regardless of method used.