Do spells cast on me continue after death and resurrected?

[Barachiel Shina]

Ok, I can't find this ruling in D&D or Pathfinder.

So got a character, had a bunch of buff spells on. Died. Got resurrected next round of combat.

Did my spells on myself like Haste or Shield of Faith ended since I died? Or do they continue after death until they end?

Not sure, cause I'm assuming once dead, those spells wear off since they no longer can affect the target it was designed for. As in, you're an object now being a corpse.

What's the consensus?

[Diego Rossi]

After they are cast and have affected a target, spells don't recheck the target. Changing the nature of the target doesn't cancel them.

You are still affected by them if they still last.

[Belafon]

I agree with your assessment, Barachiel. Once you are an object (corpse), ongoing spells that cannot affect an object would end immediately.

Note that this is not a unanimous opinion. No one who plays it the other way is automatically “doing it wrong.”

[Pizza Lord]

Spells will stay active on the target once cast. The duration will continue to expire. The spell's effects may be moot, but the spell will still be there.

A resist energy spell will still be in effect on your corpse (and gear on your corpse) until it expires. Any such energy damage would be protected against on your body or gear. It doesn't go away.

A see invisibilty is probably worthless, but it's still there. If someone cast's a spell that deals damage to objects and creatures (you are still a creature when dead, just a dead creature) based on spells currently on them, then your corpse will be damaged (which is also a moot point in most cases, since you're dead), which could be important if someone tries to use breath of life, since that damage must be accounted for to get to your –Con threshold.

A fly spell will still be active, but it would be moot, since you have to be conscious to fly (whether dead or not). If you died while flying, you would crash into the ground (and take damage which still must be accounted for even though it's not going to make you 'more dead').

The duration while you are dead will tick down, so if you are brought back after one round, then one round of the spell will be 'lost' (though it wasn't technically, you were just dead). You would still have see invisibility and resist energy and fly on you when you return to life.

Similarly, if invisibility sphere was cast on a target and they then died (naturally or to an area-of-effect), they would still be invisible as would any other creatures that were affected (unless they leave the area or attack). The spell will still be mobile on the target, so they could pick up the body and carry it around and still be affected until it expires (or they do something to break it).

[willuwontu]

No, targeting doesn't matter outside of when you're casting a spell. You being dead doesn't make the spells disappear, similarly, moving out of range or moving more than 30ft from another person who also had haste cast on them doesn't end the spell.

[Elric200]

Pizza Lord, I would agree with you, spells would continue after Resurrection as the Rules are written but If I were running the game. I would rule that spells other than restoration or Greater restoration would cease because of the spells being disrupted by the great amount of divine power used in Resurrections. When a PC dies his soul is sent to the Graveyard to be Judged by Pharasma, or to hell or the Abyss if the dead PC sold their soul.

All three involve the souls travel to another Plane then having the soul ripped back to the Prime material and reunited with the body and having divine power used to heal all the damage done to the body to kill it in the first place. All this power should disrupt all other spells other than Restoration magic as those spells are mentioned in Resurrection as the Raise dead spell at the bottom of Resurrection.

[Pizza Lord]

Elric200 wrote:

Pizza Lord, I would agree with you, spells would continue after Resurrection as the Rules are written but If I were running the game. I would rule that spells other than restoration or Greater restoration would cease because of the spells being disrupted by the great amount of divine power used in Resurrections. When a PC dies his soul is ...

That would be a fine houserule in your game. Nothing wrong with that. I don't understand the restoration thing. Those spells don't have a duration, they don't stick around after they're cast.

Elric200 wrote:

When a PC dies his soul is sent to the Graveyard to be Judged by Pharasma, or to hell or the Abyss if the dead PC sold their soul.

Not to get into specific campaign details, but I think it's pretty agreed in general that Pharasma 'knows' when a soul will be resurrected and just holds off on judging them. There is no actual time or determination for when a soul is judged after death and I am somewhat positive that once it's judged, it's not coming back (without some immense greater than Pharasma event, ie. GM fiat). In the case of Hell or a demon holding your soul or getting it when you die... then you wouldn't be able to come back at all, so the spell's on your body are a moot point.

Most of us would likely agree that spells aren't generally cast on targets' souls, but rather on their bodies, whether living or dead. Unless the spell specifies it targets or affects the 'soul' or 'mind' of a creature, the spell probably stays on the body wherever it goes. Magic jar for instance, takes a creature's soul and puts in a gem, but any spells on that creature's body stay there and are usable by the caster of magic jar. The same with the spell's on the caster's original body. He doesn't benefit from those, unless they affect his mind, like fox's cunning, but they can still be dispelled at the body (and probably at the soul location as well now).

As such, where the soul goes probably doesn't matter unless the spell is specific to a soul. Even then, in most cases, a soul will be linked to its body, at least tangentially. So a soul whose body was the recipient of an owl's wisdom might be able to incorporate its bonus while drifting around briefly, the spell would still be on the body and could be dispelled (as could, whatever spell was making the the player's soul drift around outside its body, assuming there was still a body).

[Melkiador]

A dead creature is still a creature. Look at the breath of life spell. It targets a creature touched.

Maybe your body counts as an object while dead, but the creature that you are playing still counts as a creature. And that’s what the spell is cast on. A creature.

[Diego Rossi]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Elric200 wrote:

When a PC dies his soul is sent to the Graveyard to be Judged by Pharasma, or to hell or the Abyss if the dead PC sold their soul.

Not to get into specific campaign details, but I think it's pretty agreed in general that Pharasma 'knows' when a soul will be resurrected and just holds off on judging them. There is no actual time or determination for when a soul is judged after death and I am somewhat positive that once it's judged, it's not coming back (without some immense greater than Pharasma event, ie. GM fiat). In the case of Hell or a demon holding your soul or getting it when you die... then you wouldn't be able to come back at all, so the spell's on your body are a moot point.

The RAW for Golarion has been stated in several books, generally in the descriptive parts that aren't available on AoO. I recall that it was stated in one or more supplements that "after his death, Aroden was immediately judged by Pharasma to avoid a possible resurrection."

[AwesomenessDog]

"Dead" is literally a condition for creatures, so while as a corpse you also become an object, you don't stop being a creature unless you are literally turned to dust via disintegrate or something similar that makes that specific body no longer able to return (e.g. resurrection from a pile of disintegrate dust makes an entirely new body from one of the grains of dust).

[Barachiel Shina]

I just find it a very weird ruling that's been completely overlooked for decades.

How did 2e D&D handle it? How does 5e D&D handle it now? Or PF2e?

Especially with the fact we have spells that can resurrect you within 1 minute of death.

So if my wizard with Haste, Mage Armor, and Shield dies but is raised like 3 rounds later, the Haste, Mage Armor and Shield spells continue as if nothing happened?

Or does the magic fizzle out with the caster's life since they're no longer a valid target even?

Surprised no game developer ever considered this.

[Anguish]

Barachiel Shina wrote:

I just find it a very weird ruling that's been completely overlooked for decades.

Surprised no game developer ever considered this.

I'm afraid this has been discussed many, many times since (at least) third edition was released. And I'm sure designers have considered it.

It's just an edge condition that hasn't been necessary to address.

The rules don't say that spells drop, and the rules don't actually say that your type changes, so honestly, most of the arguments for having spells go away are based on people trying to apply logic to the rough simulation. But as-written, I'm not aware of anything that's actually written that would cause them to drop... so they don't.

[Diego Rossi]

Put another way, some people feel that the spell on a dead creature should end, so they try to invent a justification for that, but the rules don't say they end. Any justification for their ending is made by wishful thinking.

[Barachiel Shina]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Put another way, some people feel that the spell on a dead creature should end, so they try to invent a justification for that, but the rules don't say they end. Any justification for their ending is made by wishful thinking.

So I'm guessing a wizard with a Permanency spell casted to give themselves permanent Arcane Sight would have a corpse that would show a Divination aura if someone found the corpse and did Detect Magic on it?

[Belafon]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Put another way, some people feel that the spell on a dead creature should end, so they try to invent a justification for that, but the rules don't say they end. Any justification for their ending is made by wishful thinking.

Put another way, some people feel that continuing effects on a dead creature shouldn’t end, so they try to invent a justification for that, but the rules don't say that such spells still function even if they could no longer affect the creature. Any justification for their ending is made by wishful thinking.

I don’t actually believe that it’s “wishful thinking,” I’m just making a rhetorical point. As I’ve said before, there just isn’t enough information to say there is a right or wrong answer. Everyone is doing the best they can with the information available to them. Multiple interpretations are possible.

[Senko]

I'd be more inclined to have them end only if the caster dies but generally spells are self sustaining when it comes to magic power not something the caster feeds energy into. So I'd say they finish up their duration unless there's a specific statement they end or don't affect dead beings which again doesn't exist in any of the common ones.

[Belafon]

The way I interpret (and play) death:

Haste ends, and so does hold person. Greater heroism ends, and so does geas.

[Elric200]

You cannot compare the death of Aroden with the death of a Mortal. When Aroden became a God his type changed to outsider and an outsider takes a Ture Resurrection to return from the dead and also you have to deal with the fact of game exposition, the authors wanted Aroden dead for story reasons. Spells might remain on a god but not on a mortal simply because gods have divine power and mortals do not.

[Senko]

Elric200 wrote:

You cannot compare the death of Aroden with the death of a Mortal. When Aroden became a God his type changed to outsider and an outsider takes a Ture Resurrection to return from the dead and also you have to deal with the fact of game exposition, the authors wanted Aroden dead for story reasons. Spells might remain on a god but not on a mortal simply because gods have divine power and mortals do not.

I'm an arcanist and I cast endure elements communal on the party as we're travelling through a desert. The party includes you and in an attack you are killed. It is my spell, it is affecting 4 people including you and me giving each of us 3 hours protection each before I need to recast it. So . . .

1) I am the caster and still alive so why should the spell stop?
2) What happens to the 3 hours you got do they get redivided up amongst the rest of the party now giving us 4 hours each or are they just lost?
3) The cleric casts breath of life on you after 2 rounds, are you now missing out on the protection and suffering in the heat?
4) Where is the rule that say's you cease being a creature because you are dead?

Flip the death its me not you and ask the above questions with . .

5) Does the spell stop on everyone because I the caster died for a few rounds even though there is no rule indicating this would happen as I am expending no effort to "maintain" it, I can even pop off to another plane or a planet on the far side of the galaxy and it wont affect my spell?

[Diego Rossi]

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Put another way, some people feel that the spell on a dead creature should end, so they try to invent a justification for that, but the rules don't say they end. Any justification for their ending is made by wishful thinking.

So I'm guessing a wizard with a Permanency spell casted to give themselves permanent Arcane Sight would have a corpse that would show a Divination aura if someone found the corpse and did Detect Magic on it?

Sure.

[Diego Rossi]

Belafon wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Put another way, some people feel that the spell on a dead creature should end, so they try to invent a justification for that, but the rules don't say they end. Any justification for their ending is made by wishful thinking.

Put another way, some people feel that continuing effects on a dead creature shouldn’t end, so they try to invent a justification for that, but the rules don't say that such spells still function even if they could no longer affect the creature. Any justification for their ending is made by wishful thinking.

I don’t actually believe that it’s “wishful thinking,” I’m just making a rhetorical point. As I’ve said before, there just isn’t enough information to say there is a right or wrong answer. Everyone is doing the best they can with the information available to them. Multiple interpretations are possible.

CRB wrote:

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets.

You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re f lat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious
but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

I don't see anything that says that the spell ends when the target changes in some way after the spell has been cast.

CRB wrote:

Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell’s duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn’t know how long the spell will last.time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends.

Oh, wait, the rules say when a spell with a duration ends: "When the time is up,".

Any reason why you invent a rule saying something different?

Let's look at what happens to a common spell if we use your invention:

CRB wrote:

Transmute Mud to Rock

....
Description
This spell permanently transforms normal mud or quicksand of any depth into soft stone (sandstone or a similar mineral).

Do You agree that the spell targets mud?

If you agree, as soon as the mud becomes rock, by your reasoning, the spell target becomes invalid and the spell is removed.

You could argue that Transmute Mud to Rock hasn't a target line and only the text in the spell description, so changing the target nature doesn't matter, but here is another spell:

CRB wrote:

Feather Fall

...
Targets one Medium or smaller freefalling object or creature/level, no two of which may be more than 20 ft. apart
...
The affected creatures or objects fall slowly. Feather fall instantly changes the rate at which the targets fall to a mere 60 feet per round (equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet), and the subjects take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect. When the spell duration expires, a normal rate of falling resumes.

As soon as Feather Fall affects a target, it stops frefalling. But at that point, it stops being a valid target.

And that, by your logic, will immediately cancel the spell.

Unless you are a rule citation, you are inventing a rule from nothing.

[Belafon]

Look, Diego, we aren't going to convince each other. We've been 'round and 'round on this and many other issues. Except I've been pretty explicit here that I'm not trying to convince anyone that my interpretation is the unassailably correct one. While you have gone to accusing anyone who does not agree with your interpretation as "inventing a rule from nothing." Even if I was open to changing my mind (which I usually am, you can find plenty of example of me saying "huh, you are right" on these boards) asserting bad faith on the part of another person is not a great way to get them on your side.

As for the two spell examples you gave - transmute mud to rock (a permanent spell) and feather fall (as spell designed to save a falling creature) - you have taken my general interpretation to a hyperliteral conclusion. Neither of those cases would happen as you (incorrectly) suggest I would rule. Sean K. Reynolds had many comments when people would complain about rules elements that they could manipulate linguistic ambiguities to twist into another shape. Such as "requires you to be incredibly obtuse as to how magic works" or "It's a deliberate misinterpretation of how effects do work and should work. Stop it." I miss that man both for his level of engagement on the boards and for his bluntness.

[Belafon]

For a concrete example, here's a spell that leads into my conclusion that ongoing effects that target creatures should end when you die:

Sanctify corpse

superliteralist reader wrote:

This spell can only be cast on a corpse. But nothing in the description (or the general rules that I can find) says that the spell ends if the creature returns to life. Huh, one of the effects of sanctify corpse is that it can't be turned into an undead creature. So I guess if I get raised, I'm immune to being turned into an undead for the remainder of the duration. Hey, look at that. This spell can be made permanent. So I'm going to leave directions that in the event of my unfortunate demise, my party members cast a permanent version of this spell on me before raising me. Undeath immunity forever!

It's pretty clear that's not the way this spell works. The effect should end when the corpse is revived. So the reverse should be true as well.

[Pizza Lord]

Belafon wrote:

For a concrete example, here's a spell that leads into my conclusion that ongoing effects that target creatures should end when you die:

Sanctify corpse

superliteralist reader wrote:

This spell can only be cast on a corpse. But nothing in the description (or the general rules that I can find) says that the spell ends if the creature returns to life. Huh, one of the effects of sanctify corpse is that it can't be turned into an undead creature. So I guess if I get raised, I'm immune to being turned into an undead for the remainder of the duration. Hey, look at that. This spell can be made permanent. So I'm going to leave directions that in the event of my unfortunate demise, my party members cast a permanent version of this spell on me before raising me. Undeath immunity forever!

It's pretty clear that's not the way this spell works. The effect should end when the corpse is revived. So the reverse should be true as well.

Actually, the way I read it... that seems exactly how it works. If you have sanctify corpse cast upon your body, you won't be able to be raised as as an undead for 24 hours. If you were slain by an undead that creates undead, that effect is delayed until the spell ends. If you're raised after 12 hours, and then killed, you still can't be raised as an undead for another 12 hours (or sanctify corpse is dispelled).

If sanctify corpse is cast on your corpse (you must be a corpse at the time) and then made permanent, then you cannot be made into an undead until that spell ends (it won't normally) but it can be dispelled. After that time, your corpse could be reanimated like any other. I don't see anything about this example that hinders that.

It's no different than a living creature having a permanent bear's endurance spell cast, and then they die and come back an undead. It's the same creature, just an undead. They would still have bear's endurance, it just wouldn't have any effect, since they have no Con score. It's still there, the magic is still there, they are still under its effects, it just has no appreciable effect. It doesn't just go away.

[Senko]

Which now has me wondering if someone has an auto-ressurect ability e.g. wont stay dead alternate capstone and you raise their corps as a zombie do they still return to life?

[Diego Rossi]

Belafon wrote:

Look, Diego, we aren't going to convince each other. We've been 'round and 'round on this and many other issues. Except I've been pretty explicit here that I'm not trying to convince anyone that my interpretation is the unassailably correct one. While you have gone to accusing anyone who does not agree with your interpretation as "inventing a rule from nothing." Even if I was open to changing my mind (which I usually am, you can find plenty of example of me saying "huh, you are right" on these boards) asserting bad faith on the part of another person is not a great way to get them on your side.

As for the two spell examples you gave - transmute mud to rock (a permanent spell) and feather fall (as spell designed to save a falling creature) - you have taken my general interpretation to a hyperliteral conclusion. Neither of those cases would happen as you (incorrectly) suggest I would rule. Sean K. Reynolds had many comments when people would complain about rules elements that they could manipulate linguistic ambiguities to twist into another shape. Such as "requires you to be incredibly obtuse as to how magic works" or "It's a deliberate misinterpretation of how effects do work and should work. Stop it." I miss that man both for his level of engagement on the boards and for his bluntness.

I don't accuse you of malicious intent, I accuse you of not reading the rules and deciding how they work while refusing the evidence to the contrary.

[Diego Rossi]

Belafon wrote:

For a concrete example, here's a spell that leads into my conclusion that ongoing effects that target creatures should end when you die:

Sanctify corpse

superliteralist reader wrote:

This spell can only be cast on a corpse. But nothing in the description (or the general rules that I can find) says that the spell ends if the creature returns to life. Huh, one of the effects of sanctify corpse is that it can't be turned into an undead creature. So I guess if I get raised, I'm immune to being turned into an undead for the remainder of the duration. Hey, look at that. This spell can be made permanent. So I'm going to leave directions that in the event of my unfortunate demise, my party members cast a permanent version of this spell on me before raising me. Undeath immunity forever!

It's pretty clear that's not the way this spell works. The effect should end when the corpse is revived. So the reverse should be true as well.

Quote:

Sanctify Corpse

Duration 24 hours
This spell blesses a corpse with positive energy, preventing it from being turned into an undead creature. Attempts to raise the corpse as an undead automatically fail. If the corpse is of a person slain by a creature that creates undead out of its slain foes (such as a shadow, vampire, or wraith), that effect is delayed until the end of this spell. It is possible to protect a corpse for an extended time by casting this spell each day.

Nice, so if you die and are brought back and then you are killed again within the duration of the spell, your body can't be turned into an undead for 24 hours.

It doesn't protect a living being at all, but it will be still active while the duration runs even if he/it is alive.

[Diego Rossi]

Senko wrote:

Which now has me wondering if someone has an auto-ressurect ability e.g. wont stay dead alternate capstone and you raise their corps as a zombie do they still return to life?

It depends on the ability description. I recall only the Heavens mystery and being Mytich level 9 doing that.

With the Heavens mystery being made an undead will stop the return:

Heavens mystery wrote:

Final Revelation: Upon achieving 20th level, your rapport with the heavens grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you are reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).

Reincarnate wrote:

A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age.

With the Mythic power, you will be brought back to life, regardless of being turned into an undead, unless the one slaying you was "either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction."

Probably there are others, but I don't recall them.

[Senko]

The one I was specifically thinking of is wont stay dead from chronicles of legends. Its an alternate capstone that replaces the 20th level ability of any class.

Won't Stay Dead (20th level EX)
At 20th level, the character becomes a paragon of resiliance. Once per week, if the character is killed, petrified, or otherwise removed from play, the character manages to survive by some dint of skill or luck and returns a the end of the combat or the scene (GM's discretion). The player and GM should work together to ensure that the method of the character's survival is at least vaguely plausible, if unlikely.

Of course they'd need to be killed and raised in a single combat so less likely than the other ones particularly the mythic that's on a 24 hour delay.

I'm also sure there are others as I didn't know if the heavens mystery one.

[Pizza Lord]

Senko wrote:

Which now has me wondering if someone has an auto-ressurect ability e.g. wont stay dead alternate capstone and you raise their corps as a zombie do they still return to life?

It usually takes long enough to animate dead that it probably won't happen in a combat or a scene, but in the case of say, an undead with create spawn that kills such a character and they would rise as a spawn, it would be GM's discretion.

I would either just not have them rise during the combat or I would have them rise as a spawn but when killed, they come back to life (and if not, like the party runs away, then I can maybe just assume that the creator just has them destroy themselves or something shortly after the scene and their spirit snaps back into their body (if incorporeal) or somehow reanimates with life. It's GM discretion, so not really a wrong answer as long as it works as smoothly as possible.

The ability doesn't really prevent you from being looted or having an arm or something cut off technically while 'out-of-play momentarily'. So having someone spend resources to animate your corpse (which, legitimately only happens when you're dead and already out of play momentarily), should still occur for a short time or length of a scene.

[Diego Rossi]

Senko wrote:

The one I was specifically thinking of is wont stay dead from chronicles of legends. Its an alternate capstone that replaces the 20th level ability of any class.

Won't Stay Dead (20th level EX)
At 20th level, the character becomes a paragon of resiliance. Once per week, if the character is killed, petrified, or otherwise removed from play, the character manages to survive by some dint of skill or luck and returns a the end of the combat or the scene (GM's discretion). The player and GM should work together to ensure that the method of the character's survival is at least vaguely plausible, if unlikely.

With that text, if the ability activates the character never dies.

"if the character is ..., or otherwise removed from play, the character manages to survive by some dint of skill or luck and returns a the end of the combat or the scene (GM's discretion)."
The ability works when the character is removed from play, regardless of how it happened. He is the guy that stumbles when someone fires at him, fall into a trapdoor, and stays unconscious until the end of the fight, appearing while people are pouring him. It is an old trope.
That guy has no need to be raised or resurrected.
A vampire just drained his last level?
No, it didn't happen.
The potion he used an hour ago was an experimental alchemical concoction that is a mix of a potion of resist fire with a Soul stimulant, and that was mistakenly sold as a normal potion of resist fire. He avoided the consequence of the last negative level.

[TriOmegaZero]

Barachiel Shina wrote:

What's the consensus?

GM preference.

[Ryze Kuja]

I treat corpses like Schrodinger's Cat; a corpse can be thought of as an object, a dead creature, and a creature. The only thing that a corpse cannot be thought of is a 'Living Creature'.