Fire Ray works fine on a Cleric- it's a spell attack and they get full scaling for spellcasting (if cloistered) and it's ranged. I would prefer going forward they stop giving focus spells that require melee for people who have 6 HP/level and bad defensive proficiencies. I'd be happy if Demon Jaws and Dragon Jaws were replaced by something that does not require the sorcerer to be in danger to use.
Can't you use Reach Spell with those spells to make them ranged?
I've found Reach Spell to be one of the best metamagic feats in the game. One action to extend a spell by 30 feet including touch range spells is a pretty awesome Metamagic Feat.
Can't you use Reach Spell with those spells to make them ranged?
I've found Reach Spell to be one of the best metamagic feats in the game. One action to extend a spell by 30 feet including touch range spells is a pretty awesome Metamagic Feat.
Oh, hey - Reach Spell plus amped Imaginary Weapon is actually really solid. Huh.
Fire Ray works fine on a Cleric- it's a spell attack and they get full scaling for spellcasting (if cloistered) and it's ranged. I would prefer going forward they stop giving focus spells that require melee for people who have 6 HP/level and bad defensive proficiencies. I'd be happy if Demon Jaws and Dragon Jaws were replaced by something that does not require the sorcerer to be in danger to use.Can't you use Reach Spell with those spells to make them ranged?
I've found Reach Spell to be one of the best metamagic feats in the game. One action to extend a spell by 30 feet including touch range spells is a pretty awesome Metamagic Feat.
No, those focus spells just give the caster an unarmed attack. Given caster proficiency scaling and hp, that makes them pretty awful for a sorc but much better on a melee martial.
Cleric's Fire Ray is ranged, but suffers the same issue all attack spells do between lack of item bonus and caster's slow proficiency scaling and shows up on a class without native true strike.
Amp mechanics also ban metamagic so that's out too as far as archetyping for reach spell on psychic to really use imaginary weapon.
All in all, this is just another focus spell that just works better for archetyping than it does for the base class. Given fire ray was already the go-to magus spell, I'm willing to think the devs knew exactly what they were doing putting IW in a place magus could poach it. The only reason this is seeing more talk is because the psychic archetype is much better for the magus than the cleric archetype overall and the spell has some distinct advantages over fire ray, namely an overall better damage type and more frontloaded damage.
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Oh, hey - Reach Spell plus amped Imaginary Weapon is actually really solid. Huh.Can't you use Reach Spell with those spells to make them ranged?
I've found Reach Spell to be one of the best metamagic feats in the game. One action to extend a spell by 30 feet including touch range spells is a pretty awesome Metamagic Feat.
You can't use Metamagic and Amp Cantrips.
Imaginary Weapon is not really the problem here. With Fire Ray, the Starlit Span Magus is already causing issues, as it tingles the best melee martials while clearly outdamaging all ranged one. Imaginary Weapon just make the issue more visible.
I also think the Starlit Span Magus existence should not limit the power level of all spell attack roll spells in the game. Ranged Spellstrike has to be rein down.
There are simple solutions: Limit Spellstrike to Magus spells or make ranged Spellstrike a 3-action routine for example. They limited Psychic abilities to Psychic spellcasting so I think the first one would be the go to way to avoid shenanigans with the Magus (I dislike that optimized Maguses all get a Focus Spell outside their class, that's not PF2 design).
Making ranged spellstrike 3 actions is a terrible idea; just be an eldritch archer at that point and have better action economy with the hitting people with magic arrows bit, and either better accuracy or have more interesting core class features while keeping the same boons (more or less).
A better solution would just make the ranged spellstriking tied to cascade if you want to try nerfing them.
I'm also not even sure that I buy that focus spells (at least on a non archer) are strictly necessary; the player at my table runs a magus more or less play by play to most optimization advice, but most of the times, his focus points are used on Dimensional Disappearance since the action economy advantage of recharging spellstrike while moving greatly outstrips the benefits of more damage on the rider spell.
More of a side quibble, but also pf 2e design is modular, so I don't really think it's against design to expect archetypes; a lot of the newer classes actually seem to assume you'll be taking archetypes, especially the combat ones, since many of them dont have many special attacking actions, but said actions are easily accessed via combat style archetypes.
You can't use Metamagic and Amp Cantrips.
Ah. Right. I'd forgotten. I suppose things like that are one reason why, then... and they closed that loophole, but not the other.
You can't use Metamagic and Amp Cantrips.Ah. Right. I'd forgotten. I suppose things like that are one reason why, then... and they closed that loophole, but not the other.
Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, it's thought-provoking that Metamagic and Spellstrike are incompatible, Metamagic and Amps are incompatible, but Spellstrike and Amps appear to work together just fine.
In fairness, amps are effectively just a way to turn cantrips into focus spells, and focus spells are fine to use with Spellstrike.
So if you wanted to patch that perceived hole, say Spellstrike and Eldritch Shot (and whatever the 3rd equivalent is) can be used with cantrips and spells from spell slots, but not the reusable near-spell-slot-equivalent focus spells/amps. Magus apparently isn't designed with them in mind, after all, since none of its conflux spells are spell attacks.
It's possible that Magus/Eldritch Archer/Beast Gunner action economy is clunky enough that letting them utilize powerful attacks which took build resources and use up their dedicated get-action-economy-back resource is actually fine in play. I wouldn't know, haven't seen anyone actually do this in my limited experience.
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In fairness, amps are effectively just a way to turn cantrips into focus spells, and focus spells are fine to use with Spellstrike.
So if you wanted to patch that perceived hole, say Spellstrike and Eldritch Shot (and whatever the 3rd equivalent is) can be used with cantrips and spells from spell slots, but not the reusable-near-spell-slot-equivalent focus spells.
...but you can use metamagic with focus spells just fine. I think it's leaner than that. Like, the "no metamagic" let them be a little more relaxed on what the amp spells can do, above and beyond normal focus spells, because they didn't need to worry about abusive metamagic combos.
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So if you wanted to patch that perceived hole, say Spellstrike and Eldritch Shot (and whatever the 3rd equivalent is) can be used with cantrips and spells from spell slots, but not the reusable near-spell-slot-equivalent focus spells/amps. Magus apparently isn't designed with them in mind, after all, since none of its conflux spells are spell attacks.
I don't think there's anything wrong with letting the Magus/Eldritch Archer/Beast Gunner use focus spells for their spellstrike or spellstrike analogue. Most focus spells that require spell attack rolls are like xd6 with some extra effects. Winter Bolt, Charged Javelin, and Hurtling Stone are all perfectly fine focus spells to combine with spellstrike/spellsling/etc.
I think the big difference is that the Eldritch Archer and Beast Gunner are pretty thoroughly barred from using True Strike here, but the Starlit Span magus has no such limitations (The separate issue is that imaginary weapon is kind of useless for the class that gets it.)
I wonder if the fix couldn't be to limit ranged spellstrike to spells that make a ranged spell attack roll.
Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, it's thought-provoking that Metamagic and Spellstrike are incompatible, Metamagic and Amps are incompatible, but Spellstrike and Amps appear to work together just fine.You can't use Metamagic and Amp Cantrips.Ah. Right. I'd forgotten. I suppose things like that are one reason why, then... and they closed that loophole, but not the other.
They are incompatible for different reasons, I think. Metamagic and Amps need to be incompatible because they are "choose your flavour" type of effects that would be hard on them every time they want to release a new metamagic or amp if they could be combined (remember that amps are not only the base amp psychic cantrips have, but the feats as well). Spellstrike and Metamagic are incompatible because there is no way they would be compatible unless they specifically specified it since all metamagic only work if your next inmediate action is Cas a Spell, the specific bit on the Spellstrike text is just a reminder about how it works.
You can't use Metamagic and Amp Cantrips.Oh, hey - Reach Spell plus amped Imaginary Weapon is actually really solid. Huh.Can't you use Reach Spell with those spells to make them ranged?
I've found Reach Spell to be one of the best metamagic feats in the game. One action to extend a spell by 30 feet including touch range spells is a pretty awesome Metamagic Feat.
Ah. I see. I did not read that part yet.
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It's funny that nearly everyone reacted to the Magus but not to how Amp Guidance will impact the game.
I've made a simulation on a character that doesn't have a reaction nor a use for its Focus Point (Inventor for example) who grabs Amp Guidance and uses it once every 5 rounds to allow an ally dealing the same average damage to hit. This character deals the same amount of damage than the same character without Amp Guidance but with a permanent +1 to hit or the same character with an extra attack reaction (like AoO) that triggers every 4 rounds.
So Amp Guidance is among the best reactions in the game with a strong measurable impact. But it's also the cheapest one to grab and the easiest to use for the characters who don't have good reactions (casters, Alchemist, Inventor, Investigator, ranged martials, etc...).
Considering how optimizing reactions is paramount to PF2 optimization, I expect most optimized parties to have 1 or 2 characters with Amp Guidance. It will also strongly impact how Reactions are rated among the non martial characters (and even martials actually). Champion's Reaction and Attack of Opportunity were extremely interesting but often quite costly (especially in terms of attribute values). I expect many characters to switch to Amp Guidance as it's cheaper and gives similar effectiveness.
Adding a strong, simple to use and cheap reaction to the game is not a small change to the game balance. It's interesting to see that it will buff a lot of weak classes (Alchemist and Investigator for example).
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Definitely think Amped Guidance is not a big deal. Using up three resources (Feats, Reactions, and Focus Points) to sometimes help any ally is super fair.
Definitely think Amped Guidance is not a big deal. Using up three resources (Feats, Reactions, and Focus Points) to sometimes help any ally is super fair.
If you consider a character with expensive reactions and focus points, definitely. But there are tons of classes with cheap to no reactions and focus points and for them it's just a level 2 feat with easy to meet prerequisite to get one of the best reactions in the game.
It's true it's not problematic like the Starlit Span Magus, but it has a strong impact on balance.
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It's funny that nearly everyone reacted to the Magus but not to how Amp Guidance will impact the game.
I've made a simulation on a character that doesn't have a reaction nor a use for its Focus Point (Inventor for example) who grabs Amp Guidance and uses it once every 5 rounds to allow an ally dealing the same average damage to hit. This character deals the same amount of damage than the same character without Amp Guidance but with a permanent +1 to hit or the same character with an extra attack reaction (like AoO) that triggers every 4 rounds.
So Amp Guidance is among the best reactions in the game with a strong measurable impact. But it's also the cheapest one to grab and the easiest to use for the characters who don't have good reactions (casters, Alchemist, Inventor, Investigator, ranged martials, etc...).
Considering how optimizing reactions is paramount to PF2 optimization, I expect most optimized parties to have 1 or 2 characters with Amp Guidance. It will also strongly impact how Reactions are rated among the non martial characters (and even martials actually). Champion's Reaction and Attack of Opportunity were extremely interesting but often quite costly (especially in terms of attribute values). I expect many characters to switch to Amp Guidance as it's cheaper and gives similar effectiveness.
Adding a strong, simple to use and cheap reaction to the game is not a small change to the game balance. It's interesting to see that it will buff a lot of weak classes (Alchemist and Investigator for example).
Pretty sure people did not discuss it much here due to how you framed it. Amped Guidance is not there to usurp Bard's place as the premier buffer (Specially because I think amped Guidance shines more as a defensive tool rather than an offensive one) but to improve certain party comps that didn't get much by having a Bard. In a party with a Magus+Swashbuckler melee combo, the value of Inspire Courage/Heroics is on the lower end. For that kind of group, I see Amped Guidance being better. In a similar fashion to Inspire Courage, it also gets worse as you level due to Heroism scaling as well as it does, but unlike Bard, who can just use Dirge of Doom instead in those cases and not loose much in the party buffing department, a class that archetypes into Psychic can have a hard time finding another thing to fill that niche.
I think it is a very strong reaction and for sure an important part of optimisation talk from now on, but framing it as the "Bard killer" is missing the point a bit, IMO.
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Amped Guidance doesn't have me too worried as it encroaches on the territory of what I still consider to be the best Spellcaster in the system, the Bard, who to be quite honest could do to share a bit more of their niche with other Classes, even if that is accessible via creative multiclassing.
It's a good option for sure but it doesn't come anywhere CLOSE to rising to the point where SS + TS + IW does in that ... well, it's not grotesquely powerful to the point that it outshines pretty much every other 3 Action "rotation" in the system (even when you consider it can usually only be done two times per combat with a "cooldown' round in between).
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It's not just a level two feat. It's a level two dedication. They're going to need another two feats to get back out of that archetype.
I would't call it significantly better than an archetype into Marshal or Bard for the equivalent boons. They do consume more than just the one feat, but they don't eat reactions int he same way. On the flip side, the Champion reactions are also quite poachable, and can bring a fair bit of value in their own way. Heck - for someone who's getting into the scrum, the Marshal also offers some decent reactions (though those are higher levels)
Like, yeah, dipping into archetypes to find a way to usefully consume the resources you're not using is a pretty strong move, and this is one way to do that (for people who aren't using their reactions or focus points, and who do not strongly value their level 2 feat). That's true. It can make you stronger than an otherwise equivalent character who is not optimized in that way. That's true. Amp Guidance is a decent workhorse for the purpose, but I don't think it's hugely better than what has gone before.
So Amp Guidance is among the best reactions in the game with a strong measurable impact. But it's also the cheapest one to grab and the easiest to use for the characters who don't have good reactions (casters, Alchemist, Inventor, Investigator, ranged martials, etc...).
I think it is top tier. It is cheap to acquire but the use cost is significant.
I like it a lot for builds that struggle to use their reaction and don't have a good focus option.
I'm curious how people feel about the witch with psychic dedication. Is it stronger than basic lessons? What's the best psi cantrip for an occult witch? And a non-occult witch?
but framing it as the "Bard killer"
Well, I was not framing it as the Bard killer, just stating that it was significantly reducing the cost of buffs, which was the Bard's unique ability (Bard's debuff is strong, but debuff is accessible to a lot of other classes).
it also gets worse as you level due to Heroism scaling as well as it does
I've seen Heroism being used once. The 10-minute duration, the limitation to one target and the spell slot cost if you want a nice bonus kills it as a common buff. The only person I've seen using it a lot is Exocist, but he was using it through scrolls, so as such it was limited to the very last levels.
It's a good option for sure but it doesn't come anywhere CLOSE to rising to the point where SS + TS + IW does
Ok, I get it, TS + SS + IW generates more emotional reactions. It's true that Amp Guidance is in my opinion a nice thing, even if I feel it may become a bit too common to my tastes.
I would't call it significantly better than an archetype into Marshal or Bard for the equivalent boons
If you speak of the Marshall auras, then I can tell you from first hand experience that they are hardly worth the action cost. I've seen them in action and the area is so small no one is affected. On top of it, you need to succeed at a Charisma-based check when it's more useful on a martial character, so failure is quite common.
And Amp Guidance is better than Bard Dedication because of the atrocious cost of Bard Dedication: 3 feats and level 8 to finally get Inspire Courage. With Amp Guidance, it's just one level 2 feat and you're set. Also, Bard Dedication asks for actions, so you need a build with available actions. It limits to Monk, Precision Ranger, Alchemist and Summoner. Other characters will have hard time using Inspire Courage without affecting negatively their routine.It's not just a level two feat. It's a level two dedication. They're going to need another two feats to get back out of that archetype.
True. It depends on your build. Being a Dedication is not only a bad thing, Dedication feats are cheaper if you play with Free Archetype or thanks to Multitalented. So it may be harder to put in some builds and easier in others.
I'm curious how people feel about the witch with psychic dedication. Is it stronger than basic lessons? What's the best psi cantrip for an occult witch? And a non-occult witch?
I've not spoken about the Witch because it's a class I don't know well. My feeling is that it's roughly equivalent.
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but framing it as the "Bard killer"Well, I was not framing it as the Bard killer, just stating that it was significantly reducing the cost of buffs, which was the Bard's unique ability (Bard's debuff is strong, but debuff is accessible to a lot of other classes).
Your first post seemed to be implying that to me, at least. Sorry if I musunderstood.
it also gets worse as you level due to Heroism scaling as well as it doesI've seen Heroism being used once. The 10-minute duration, the limitation to one target and the spell slot cost if you want a nice bonus kills it as a common buff. The only person I've seen using it a lot is Exocist, but he was using it through scrolls, so as such it was limited to the very last levels.
I've only used it in level 15+, but it is quite the spell once you don't mind loosing a level 6 slot. Never used the level 9 version, though. I like Exocist's idea of using Heroism Scrolls at very high levels. Might steal that.
Iirc, you find 10 min too short of a duraration to pre-cast, right? In my games I've never have any issue with that (specially because I love Staff of Divination), that may affect how we evaluate spells.
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If you speak of the Marshall auras, then I can tell you from first hand experience that they are hardly worth the action cost. I've seen them in action and the area is so small no one is affected. On top of it, you need to succeed at a Charisma-based check when it's more useful on a martial character, so failure is quite common.
+1 to hit for the rest of the fight from a third action at the beginning of said fight isn't worth it? It's guaranteed to hit you regardless. It'll also hit anyone who's adjacent to you, and anyone who's flanking a medium creature with you. That's not nothing.
As for charisma-based check... there are a lot of martials out there who go charisma for one reason or another. Anyone who's into intimidate or bluff gets at least some, and that's not counting things like Thaumaturge. Standard-difficulty DC isn't all that hard.
I've only used it in level 15+
It is also my feeling: Before very high levels, it's not worth it. I don't focus on level 15+ as I haven't played much at such high level.
In my games I've never have any issue with that (specially because I love Staff of Divination), that may affect how we evaluate spells.
If you know you'll face a fight, definitely. But as long as you only think you'll face a fight, using a 6th level spell is costly.
Also, you need to use more than one. If you don't put everyone under Heroism then Amp Guidance still has a lot of value, especially because it's a +2 at that level and as such should be triggered quite often.+1 to hit for the rest of the fight from a third action at the beginning of said fight isn't worth it?
A third action at the beginning of the fight is not a third action. The first round is extremely sensitive as you often have to move and may need to draw your weapon or Rage/Overdrive, etc... It's far closer to a second action. Which means that you need 2 turns to get back the action lost if you are the only one affected. When taking into account the chances of failure, it's 3 turns. And getting even is definitely not the goal otherwise you should just retrain the feat and Strike instead.
Overall, I've found it hardly usable and my player was feeling the same (he stopped using it at some point as he was just feeling bad about it between the chances of failure and the ridiculous radius).
Definitely think Amped Guidance is not a big deal. Using up three resources (Feats, Reactions, and Focus Points) to sometimes help any ally is super fair.
Sometimes? It never fails to help the ally.
Read the trigger. It literally cannot be used UNLESS it would alter the success of the roll. Do not spend your focus point. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 dollars.
Not until it matters.
The thing about amp guidance is that, while I don't believe it outclasses one for all for skills or offense (on classes that can afford the action) or champion reaction+LoH for defense, being usable for either and the ease with which slots itself into any build not using focus points is pretty fantastic. Getting it at human 9 is also an attractive option.
I don't think it's a balance issue or anything (though I don't think the psi magus is one either). It's just...efficient? One feat to close a gap in many ranged martial and caster builds isn't a lot to ask for and archetype casting can go on just about everyone.
I'm curious how people feel about the witch with psychic dedication. Is it stronger than basic lessons? What's the best psi cantrip for an occult witch? And a non-occult witch?
I'm not sure I've seen it discussed, mostly because nobody talking about optimization even looks at the witch outside of stealing cackle or life boost.
So putting cackle aside, assuming you grab it with natural ambition at human 1, let's take a quick look at the basics.
Blood ward is a sustained +1 that eventually heightens to a +2 to AC and saves vs a specific creature type. Good if you know what you're fighting, it's on the list, and if it's a homogenous group. Compare amp guidance which is the same +1 or +2 (one spell level later) but only when it matters, has no enemy type requirement, no sustain requirement and can be used offensively instead while also giving you a good reaction.
Elemental betrayal is a sustained damage add. Probably not as much damage as you'd add over a fight as turning a single miss into a hit with amp guidance unless the whole team built around fire damage. May compete with true strike amp phase bolt but I'm not interested in that math.
Life boost is healing without sustain. Has early competition from amp shield assuming you don't bother with sustain and instead burst all 3 layers at once. However, life boost eventually outscales that version.
Needle is sustained and relies on the target living long enough to rack up enough damage to outdo turning a miss into a hit with guidance. Probably better offensively at higher levels where you can get lots of damage per action.
Veil of dreams is sustained, with minor debuffs on success and a debuff to casters on fail. Closest competition is probably amp dancing lights inflicting dazzled on success which is about the same for martials.
Definitely think Amped Guidance is not a big deal. Using up three resources (Feats, Reactions, and Focus Points) to sometimes help any ally is super fair.Sometimes? It never fails to help the ally.
Read the trigger. It literally cannot be used UNLESS it would alter the success of the roll. Do not spend your focus point. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 dollars.
Not until it matters.
True, but it also doesn't do anything until you get an on the verge roll, which will be sometimes. It is definitely a good spell, and I'm contemplating taking it on both an oracle and a witch without good reactions... But it does compete with other focus spells.
While amp guidence is a solid utility pick for classes that don't have a reaction, I'd hardly think it's OP. It's only once or twice a fight, and generally speaking, easy access to party support is pretty healthy for an rpg; encouraging teamwork is a good thing.
It also doesn't push up the power ceiling of another class the way amped Imaginary Weapon does (for real, I really wish they just made IW have the same power as TK projectile with a ranged and melee mode, and the amp keep the power boost and double targeting; it would have been better for the psychic and it wouldnt have power crept the magus)
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While amp guidence is a solif utility pick for classes that don't have a reaction, I'd hardly think it's OP. It's only once or twice a fight, and generally speaking, easy access to party support is pretty healthy for an rpg; encouraging teamwork is a good thing.
It also doesn't push up the power ceiling of another class the way amped Imaginary Weapon does (for real, I really wish they just made IW have the same power as TK projectile with a ranged and melee mode, and the amp keep the power boost and double targeting; it would have been better for the psychic and it wouldnt have power crept the magus)
I think Imaginary Weapon is a fine cantrip in a vacuum. We SHOULD have melee spell which deal better damage than ranged spells because melee carries increased risks and restrictions. That's how it works for martials.
It is just the Magus interaction which is a problem.
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Definitely think Amped Guidance is not a big deal. Using up three resources (Feats, Reactions, and Focus Points) to sometimes help any ally is super fair.Sometimes? It never fails to help the ally.
Read the trigger. It literally cannot be used UNLESS it would alter the success of the roll. Do not spend your focus point. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 dollars.
Not until it matters.
Sometimes in the sense that only 1/20 rolls (eventually 1/10 at 11) are eligible to benefit from Amped Guidance.
You also have to sit on a focus point all combat hoping it procs, and make some judgement calls about when to pull the trigger when you do. There's more consideration than you're giving credit for here.
It's a great ability of course, but it sits at the convergence of requiring someone who wants a reaction, doesn't have good focus spells, and doesn't want another archetype that makes it kind of niche, not to mention partially overlapping with a staple bard action. All those things together make it a good ability worth looking at but... not much else.
for real, I really wish they just made IW have the same power as TK projectile with a ranged and melee mode, and the amp keep the power boost and double targeting; it would have been better for the psychic and it wouldnt have power crept the magus
Don't really agree. My players and friends are excited for Tangible Dream specifically because it gives them a credibly meaty melee attack on a type of character (dedicated spellcaster) that never really had a way to pull that off before effectively. They want the fantasy of swinging their phantom weapons for big damage.
It would be a shame to lose the flavor and power of the spell because the Magus is a little bit janky sometimes.
for real, I really wish they just made IW have the same power as TK projectile with a ranged and melee mode, and the amp keep the power boost and double targeting; it would have been better for the psychic and it wouldnt have power crept the magusDon't really agree. My players and friends are excited for Tangible Dream specifically because it gives them a credibly meaty melee attack on a type of character (dedicated spellcaster) that never really had a way to pull that off before effectively.
It would be a shame to lose the flavor and power of the spell because Paizo simply didn't think enough about focus spells when designing the magus.
Actually, my main reasons for wanting this is less to do with the magus and more because I want my tangible dream psychic to be able to shoot an imaginary bow or toss imaginary knives, and just overall be able to imagine whatever weapon matches the situation instead of being stuck into melee style with a character chassis that doesn't support it. The damage reduction in my proposal was mostly to balance it against other cantrips. I mostly mentioned the magus stuff since there's been a conversation going on about it
When I heard about there being a dream psychic that can make imaginary weapons, my first thought was making a desnan that throw dream summoned starknives and ricocheted them for the multitargeting mode, but alas, thats not really possible
I don't think amp guidance being strong is really a problem since "helping the other players" is a thing that's always welcome in a party. Maybe it steps on the Bard's toes a bit, but the Bard was already a very, very powerful class so I don't think having options is really going to make people mind that change.
The SS+TS+IM thing is more of a "I hog the spotlight by having the biggest numbers" thing and generally "hogging the spotlight" is a much worse thing in a cooperative game than "helping your buddies."
Like if the Bard were literally twice as good as it currently is at helping out its allies, that would be a super overpowered class that nonetheless wouldn't wear out its welcome with a wide variety of parties.
Definitely think Amped Guidance is not a big deal. Using up three resources (Feats, Reactions, and Focus Points) to sometimes help any ally is super fair.Sometimes? It never fails to help the ally.
Read the trigger. It literally cannot be used UNLESS it would alter the success of the roll. Do not spend your focus point. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 dollars.
Not until it matters.
Sometimes in the sense that only 1/20 rolls (eventually 1/10 at 11) are eligible to benefit from Amped Guidance.
You also have to sit on a focus point all combat hoping it procs, and make some judgement calls about when to pull the trigger when you do. There's more consideration than you're giving credit for here.
It's a great ability of course, but it sits at the convergence of requiring someone who wants a reaction, doesn't have good focus spells, and doesn't want another archetype that makes it kind of niche, not to mention partially overlapping with a staple bard action. All those things together make it a good ability worth looking at but... not much else.
In your standard 4 round combat you have a 55% chance of using it if you have 2 martials that attack twice each round as a +1. As a +2 its an 88% chance. This is only if you plan to use it offensively, obviously. Once you add in the chance of using it defensively, you're almost guaranteed to use it once per combat.
Sure, not everyone wants or needs this, but a lot of characters really do benefit from just slapping this in somewhere.
And every human should consider it if they aren't running shory aeromancer or the aasimar flight feat.
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Personally, I would be interested in seeing actual builds that would make good use of it (Besides a Psychic, of course). Since this is a way broader spell than IW, beeing able to see the wider picture could help to figure out how good it really is.
For example, I think this would be amazing on a Imperial Sorcerer. You already have focus points, so you get to have something else to use those focus points if the situation comes (Extend spell before a predictable encounter, Arcane Countermeasures against magic), but you still get to use Amped Guidance once or twice when the situation arrives. I've been playing one of these for a while now (about to reach level 9), and even though Extend Spell on Mirror Image or Haste works really well (soon i'll get to do it with lvl 4 invisibility), it is not something you can apply to every encounter. For those situations it is no good using it it, Guidance would be really good. It is also a way to convert the excess, non-regenerable focus points you get every day into combat power, something that is a severe weakness the subclass has. Arcane Countermeasures may also a reaction, a pretty powerful one at that, but it is pretty niche as well.
I'm thinking something like:
Lvl 2: Swashbuckler Dedication
Lvl 4: One For All (can be something else before level 6 or 7)
Lvl 6: Advanced Bloodline
Lvl 8: Crossblooded Evolution
Lvl 9 (Through Multitalented): Psychic Dedication
Lvl 10: Greater Bloodline
Lvl 12: Bloodline Focus
or
Lvl 2: Psychic Dedication
Lvl 4: Arcane Evolution
Lvl 6: Advanced Bloodline
Lvl 8: Crossblooded Evolution
Lvl 10: Greater Bloodline
Lvl 12: Bloodline Focus
That way the build still gets a reaction for those moments it can't use One for All (if it has the feat) and gets a less niche use for its focus points.
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And every human should consider it if they aren't running shory aeromancer or the aasimar flight feat.
That... what?
- If your build already has you burning your reactions on other things, it's a lot less valuable.
- If your build already has you using your focus points for other things, it's a lot less valuable.
- If your party already has someone handing out status bonuses, it's a lot less valuable.
- If you want to do something else with archetypes, ti gets potentially a lot more expensive
- It's verbal-only, which means that it at least doesn't provoke, but it's effectively unusable by barbarians.
When everything lines up, it's a solid pick. Otherwise?
Anyway, what do Shory Aeromancer and Aasimar flight have to do with it?
And every human should consider it if they aren't running shory aeromancer or the aasimar flight feat.That... what?
- If your build already has you burning your reactions on other things, it's a lot less valuable.
- If your build already has you using your focus points for other things, it's a lot less valuable.
- If your party already has someone handing out status bonuses, it's a lot less valuable.
- If you want to do something else with archetypes, ti gets potentially a lot more expensive
- It's verbal-only, which means that it at least doesn't provoke, but it's effectively unusable by barbarians.When everything lines up, it's a solid pick. Otherwise?
Anyway, what do Shory Aeromancer and Aasimar flight have to do with it?
Flight that doesn't rely on caster slots or expending your flight item is typically the best use of your level 9 ancestry feat if you aren't using multitalented for your build.
The only ones using their reaction with any reliably are reaction attack melee and one for all characters. Given that guidance goes to +2 at level 11 and that heroism 6 can't just be always on between slot limits and duration, you lose very little with multitalented psychic even with existing status bonuses.
Focus users need to ask themselves if spending focus on their turn is worth it compared to whatever else they could use the action(s) for. The healing seems to be. Monk stance maybe. Lingering composition. Others are more debatable as you need one that is as good as a martial attack or an upgraded save and which also accounts for the opportunity cost of not having used your actions for something else.
I'm curious as to what other archetypes you're starting at 9 or 10 though. Typically I only see that done for monk flurry and bard dirge setups (which are the other big uses of multitalented). I can't see anything else having the same kind of value that wouldn't also have been started pre-9 and therefore not conflict at all.
We'll ignore barbarians though. They're essentially banned from anything with concentrate given the action and feat tax.
So yes, it's not for every character ever, but it's a strong enough option that it should be weighed against whatever else you were going to put there.
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So... for the case where we're not worrying about your other class feats so much (because of FA, ancient elf, or a lvl 9 human) let's try breaking it down by classes:
Not great:
- Barbarian: functionally can't
- Bard: already using focus spells. Competes with self.
- Champion: loves their reactions. Already uses focus spells.
- Druid: little use for Int/Cha, and already getting value out of focus spells.
- Fighter (Melee): Doesn't usually like Int/Cha, and shoudl be spendign their reactions elsewhere.
- Gunslinger: heavy use of reactions, little Int/Cha
- Oracle: tends to really like their focus spells.
- Magus: Focus spells are precious.
- Monk: likes their reactions. Possibly uses focus spells already. If they don't use focus spells, they probably don't have Int/Cha.
- Summoner: has solid uses for both focus points and reactions
- Swashbuckler: already has good uses for reactions
- Thaumaturge: Highly likely to have reactions already. If your build does not have reactions already, switches to "seriously consider".
Mediocre/Varies:
- Cleric: depends on the focus spells. Some are great. Some are... less great.
- Fighter (ranged): still doesn't use Int/Cha
- Ranger: may or may not have reactions. Generally does not use Int/Cha. Might have focus spells, but probably doesn't.
- Rogue: as Ranger, but without the focus spells, and somewhat more likely to use Cha.
- Sorceror: Are you likely to run out of good spell-slots in your standard adventuring day? If yes, then you probably care about your focus spells in a "gas in the tank" way. If not, then it's worth serious consideration.
- Witch: How much do you love your other focus spells? There's your answer.
Seriously consider:
- Alchemist
- Inventor
- Investigator
- Wizard
N/A:
- Psychic
If your level 9 human is also a half-elf, then you're probably promoting fighter (ranged), ranger, and rogue up to "seriously consider", and possibly moving Druid up to "Mediocre/Varies".
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Disagree with Cleric in your assessment, Cha is basically a secondary stat for them since it feeds their Font and a lot of their focus options can be big misses. Some are good, so it's a bit deity specific, but 14 Cha isn't that big of an ask for a cleric.
Plus "I'm going to use my reaction to help people" is very much in keeping with the identity of the Cleric class.
Disagree with Cleric in your assessment, Cha is basically a secondary stat for them since it feeds their Font and a lot of their focus options can be big misses. Some are good, so it's a bit deity specific, but 14 Cha isn't that big of an ask for a cleric.
I'll admit that I'm not an expert on casters. Have edited accordingly.
I don't think that classes that already get Focus Spells are any worse amped guidance users, rather the opposite. You get to proactively use your focus points into something else and you can save the leftover focus points you cannot regen (or just the focus spell you didn't get the chance to use yet) for amped Guidance when it comes up. Getting to use a resource is better than needing to hoard it in hopes it ends up being useful.
Look at it this way, some encounter you will need amped guidance 0 times, others 2, others 4. Isn't a class that already use focus points a better fit for that?
I would say that only Barbarian, Bard, Champion, melee Fighters, Gunslinger and Magus shouldn't consider it for the most part. I can see builds for the other classes (Some of them would require Half-Elf Multitalented) where it would be at least a decent addition.
Generally, ranged martials have no need to invest in str unless they're planning to switch hit. The difference in damage between an 8 str bowman and an 18 str composite bowman is 2 points.
3 points, you add your full modifier if it's negative so 8 strength reduces your damage by 1.
3 points, you add your full modifier if it's negative so 8 strength reduces your damage by 1.
Can't you just use a non-composite bow to avoid that though?
3 points, you add your full modifier if it's negative so 8 strength reduces your damage by 1.
Only on a composite bow. A regular bow lacks propulsive so it doesn't suffer the penalty and is otherwise the same as its composite counterpart
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I don't think that classes that already get Focus Spells are any worse amped guidance users, rather the opposite. You get to proactively use your focus points into something else and you can save the leftover focus points you cannot regen (or just the focus spell you didn't get the chance to use yet) for amped Guidance when it comes up. Getting to use a resource is better than needing to hoard it in hopes it ends up being useful.
Look at it this way, some encounter you will need amped guidance 0 times, others 2, others 4. Isn't a class that already use focus points a better fit for that?
I would say that only Barbarian, Bard, Champion, melee Fighters, Gunslinger and Magus shouldn't consider it for the most part. I can see builds for the other classes (Some of them would require Half-Elf Multitalented) where it would be at least a decent addition.
What you suggest would make sense if regen were equivalent to max, or, similarly, if we had only one encounter per day. As soon as we start consistently getting more than one encounter per day, though, it quickly becomes very much not that.
Let's consider the case before you hit level 12 or so. We're not dealing with a psychic, so you only have a refocus of 1. If you have no focus powers at all, then your max is zero, and refocus is meaningless. With your first focus power, you have a max of 1 and a refocus of 1. You can fire that thing off once per encounter, all day long. If you add a second focus power, your max goes up by one, but your refocus does not. That means that you can pick one fight over the course of the day where you can do one of each, or two of either, and in every other fight, you get one or the other, not both. That's not great if you're the sort that tends to use your focus powers at the end of the fight - it means that if your amped Guidance triggered, then you don't get your other spell. It's really not great if you're one of the ones who wants to start off the fight with a focus power. In that case, you have to either use your standard fight-starter (and turn off Amped Guidance entirely) or hold back to save the focus point for an amped guidance that may or may not come (and thus, effectively, turn off your fight-starter).
Now, it smooths out a little once you get to the point where you can refocus more than one, but many classes that can get a second refocus will already have multiple focus spells they'll want to pick up, so your amped Guidance is giving your your third focus point, rather than your second... and if for some reason they already had three focus spells they wanted over the course of their career, then amped guidance isn't adding to the available resource pools at all.
In general, being forcefed focus points for focus spells that you don't want and will never use will make amped guidance more useful. Even if it's just spells that aren't great, and that you'll use rarely, that can be true. There's a reason I put Wizard on the "Seriously consider" list. On the other hand, if you actually like your focus spells, then that means Amped Guidance is competing for limited resources... which effectively makes it more costly, and thus less worthwhile.
Effectively, there are assets that everyone gets, but that some builds do not use.
- 1/round flourish
- 1/encounter refocus
- 1/round reaction
...and, to a lesser extent...
- (martials) 1/round the privilege of making a MAP-less attack against AC
- (casters) 1/round, the ability to generate a 2-action or 3-action effect.
- The ability to enter your first dedication without having to work your way out of a previous dedication.
In a game as tight as PF2, a lot of optimization hinges on finding efficient ways to take advantage of some of these that you haven't started using yet. Amped Guidance takes a bite out of the reaction, the refocus slot, and the archetype. If those things are already in use elsewhere, though, it's not as good.
I don't think that classes that already get Focus Spells are any worse amped guidance users, rather the opposite. You get to proactively use your focus points into something else and you can save the leftover focus points you cannot regen (or just the focus spell you didn't get the chance to use yet) for amped Guidance when it comes up. Getting to use a resource is better than needing to hoard it in hopes it ends up being useful.
Look at it this way, some encounter you will need amped guidance 0 times, others 2, others 4. Isn't a class that already use focus points a better fit for that?
I would say that only Barbarian, Bard, Champion, melee Fighters, Gunslinger and Magus shouldn't consider it for the most part. I can see builds for the other classes (Some of them would require Half-Elf Multitalented) where it would be at least a decent addition.
What you suggest would make sense if regen were equivalent to max, or, similarly, if we had only one encounter per day. As soon as we start consistently getting more than one encounter per day, though, it quickly becomes very much not that.
Let's consider the case before you hit level 12 or so. We're not dealing with a psychic, so you only have a refocus of 1. If you have no focus powers at all, then your max is zero, and refocus is meaningless. With your first focus power, you have a max of 1 and a refocus of 1. You can fire that thing off once per encounter, all day long. If you add a second focus power, your max goes up by one, but your refocus does not. That means that you can pick one fight over the course of the day where you can do one of each, or two of either, and in every other fight, you get one or the other, not both. That's not great if you're the sort that tends to use your focus powers at the end of the fight - it means that if your amped Guidance triggered, then you don't get your other spell. It's really not great if you're one of the ones who wants to start off the fight with a...
I'm not even factoring level 12/18 in what I said. Functionally, you either get 2 encounters where you get to use 2 focus spells or one where you get to use all 3. For all the rest you get encounters where either you get good spots to use your Focus Spells or some where you don't. Amped Guidance will help in both cases. If the only focus spell you have is amped Guidance, you will face encounters (mostly before it gets upgraded) where you have your focus point unused by the end of combat. That's extremely inefficient.
Most focus spells still cost actions, so depending on your focus spell array you will face encounters where you don't have good uses for them. Let's say you are a Draconic Sorcerer. Dragon Claws, your starting focus power, is pretty bad, but your second focus spell, Dragon Breath, is almost a Fireball in damage, which is pretty good. That said, no matter how good it is, it is worthless if you don't get to hit more than one enemy due to enemy cuantity or positioning or in those moments enemies have a very favorable save into the spell or some ammount of resistance. Better use those 2 actions doing anything else unless you are completely out of gas.
Amped Guidance can always be a good hit for the encounter, because its variance doesn't lie on encounter specifics, but on RNG. If you don't get to use your other Focus Spells, Amped Guidance is always on. If you already used your Focus point and an amped Guidance spot comes up, you can always cash in one of the extra focus points you have every day. Or don't, but you get to choose. Having the option to choose, having options in general is always powerful.
Yes, it is worse of you already have a reliable reaction, if you want to cast a specific focus spell every fight or if you need other archetypes, but for the first one, most classes don't get reliable enough reactions to discard amped Guidance completely (I would say that only AoO/Stand Still, Fake Out, Good-aligned Champion's Reaction and the Thaumaturge equivalent are consistent enough) and the second case is not particularly common (specially on casters). As for the third one, not all the builds are in desperate need of a specific Archetype (again, specially casters), so I don't see this as a big deal, to be fair.
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So... for the case where we're not worrying about your other class feats so much (because of FA, ancient elf, or a lvl 9 human) let's try breaking it down by classes:
Not great:
- Barbarian: functionally can't
- Bard: already using focus spells. Competes with self.
- Champion: loves their reactions. Already uses focus spells.
- Druid: little use for Int/Cha, and already getting value out of focus spells.
- Fighter (Melee): Doesn't usually like Int/Cha, and shoudl be spendign their reactions elsewhere.
- Gunslinger: heavy use of reactions, little Int/Cha
- Oracle: tends to really like their focus spells.
- Magus: Focus spells are precious.
- Monk: likes their reactions. Possibly uses focus spells already. If they don't use focus spells, they probably don't have Int/Cha.
- Summoner: has solid uses for both focus points and reactions
- Swashbuckler: already has good uses for reactions
- Thaumaturge: Highly likely to have reactions already. If your build does not have reactions already, switches to "seriously consider".Mediocre/Varies:
- Cleric: depends on the focus spells. Some are great. Some are... less great.
- Fighter (ranged): still doesn't use Int/Cha
- Ranger: may or may not have reactions. Generally does not use Int/Cha. Might have focus spells, but probably doesn't.
- Rogue: as Ranger, but without the focus spells, and somewhat more likely to use Cha.
- Sorceror: Are you likely to run out of good spell-slots in your standard adventuring day? If yes, then you probably care about your focus spells in a "gas in the tank" way. If not, then it's worth serious consideration.
- Witch: How much do you love your other focus spells? There's your answer.Seriously consider:
- Alchemist
- Inventor
- Investigator
- WizardN/A:
- PsychicIf your level 9 human is also a half-elf, then you're probably promoting fighter (ranged), ranger, and rogue up to "seriously consider", and possibly moving Druid up to "Mediocre/Varies".
I mostly agree. I just don't see 1 or 2 builds per class when I look at the classes.
Just because you have focus spells and reaction doesn't always mean you are using them. There are plently of Oracles that have focus spells to burn - like a Psychic they get preferential class treatment - but really don't want to advance their curse until they have to. Probably half of the Oracles never really want to go to their major curse. Example Lore or Bones. I actually like the Oracle with a side of Pyschic.
With Witch and Cleric there is are a lot of trade offs. You may like some of your options for your particular patron or deity but not others. Pychic gives you another choice.
I probably would consider a Swashbuckler with Pyschic as their reactions can be harder to use.
Just because you have focus spells and reaction doesn't always mean you are using them. There are plently of Oracles that have focus spells to burn - like a Psychic they get preferential class treatment - but really don't want to advance their curse until they have to. Probably half of the Oracles never really want to go to their major curse. Example Lore or Bones. I actually like the Oracle with a side of Pyschic.
Too true. The extra control you get over your curse while still able to make use of your focus points is super handy. That's why Blessed One is a particularly popular archetype Oracles dip into. One feat for one non-cursebound focus spell is a great deal.
Oracles having lackluster class feats also makes the dedication lock more bearable. Sad but convenient in this context, like a curse, if you will.