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I don't know if the Starlit Span Magus will invade PFS. The drawback of this build is that it really goes online by level 6, which is a lot for PFS. The other drawback is that it's super visible, I could see players refusing it as it's very obvious.
But I just wanted to correct a small mistake: Imaginary Weapon is your choice of Bludgeoning or Slashing, not Force. It's still super strong, but not that strong.
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"Everybody plays the same magus, and it does a lot of damage" isn't exactly unprecedented, what with the "scimitar dancing, summered in Minata, shocking grasp with free metamagic" builds we saw in PF1.
One reason we might see a lot of this is that people are used to playing cookie cutter Magi, or alternatively that the class aleady has an existing fanbase of people who tend to value "effectiveness" more than "variety."
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I doubt its an issue, any Magus Build that relies on True Strike immediately runs afoul of only having three actions in a turn and still needing to recharge Spellstrike, so it only functions as an opener, and Telekinetic Projectile was already a d8, so you're only gaining about 1 average per die before factoring in the amp, and if you're paying focus points to amp, you aren't getting the efficiency of the conflux recharge (the option to beat is Force Fang) either, which means you have to perform your recharge raw at the start of each turn, which also means you don't have leftover actions for True Strike.
Too much is loaded into the turns the tool can't unevenly acknowledge for the chart posted to be valid, sadly.
I wonder how well it performs against Double Slice Light Pick Assassin Fighters-- which is probably the single strongest build I've seen, provided the player is placed to Mark For Death before combat, which is sometimes a problem, but also frequently isn't.
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The whole two step of "I am holding a staff and a bow in each hand, activate the staff, then drop the staff as a free action, cast a spell, then knock an arrow and fire" seems like it might be an issue. I know it's an etiquette thing to let players keep their gear, but I'd be concerned about leaving a 4000 gp staff lying on the ground especially if I'm forced to move off the square where I left it.
It's kind of surprising how invested some people are in the idea that Starlit Span Magi aren't good.
I doubt its an issue, any Magus Build that relies on True Strike
That's not really a thing. 'Rely' implies the build somehow magically falls apart if you don't have true strike, but that's not really the case. It's just a significant damage multiplier on any round you get to pull it off.
Telekinetic Projectile was already a d8
TKP is a d6.
The whole two step of "I am holding a staff and a bow in each hand, activate the staff, then drop the staff as a free action, cast a spell, then knock an arrow and fire" seems like it might be an issue. I know it's an etiquette thing to let players keep their gear, but I'd be concerned about leaving a 4000 gp staff lying on the ground especially if I'm forced to move off the square where I left it.
Then don't hold a staff.
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Then don't hold a staff.
Don't you run out of True Strikes pretty quickly without the Staff of Divination?
Here you go. Against moderate AC, runes, and limited feats. Didn't customize magus attack for < L6 to be lower damage so we'll just ignore those levels, but presumably fighter is doing better because there is no amped massive nova spike.
You should use an Amp IW at round 2 at level 15 and 20. It's closer to the real Magus performance.
loss of DPR from repositioning (it'll impact the magus more than a fighter with sudden charge)
No, it's the opposite. Melee characters have to move more than ranged ones, just because they sometimes have to switch targets. I've more than once found archers at the end of a fight in the very same square they started the fight on, archers don't have to move much. And Sudden Charge is only useful at round 1, after that, a move is an action lost.
Feels like it matches the current meta.
But from range. That's the thing.
Also, you don't take into account the 4 top spell slots the Magus has. It's not decoration, it really changes the balance. The Fighter doesn't have the choice but to Strike every round when the Magus can nova in a completely different way.I wonder how well it performs against Double Slice Light Pick Assassin Fighters-- which is probably the single strongest build I've seen, provided the player is placed to Mark For Death before combat, which is sometimes a problem, but also frequently isn't.
Even with Mark for Death, the Double Slice Light Pick Fighter is behind the builds Red Gryffin is testing against the Magus. So let's stick to top builds.
Don't you run out of True Strikes pretty quickly without the Staff of Divination?
I know my posts are long, but I've given the way to have infinite True Strike in one of my previous posts: Independent Manual Dexterity Familiar who hands you a Scroll of True Strike every 2 rounds.
No feats involved but the ones to get the Imaginary Weapon on the Magus.
Which is just one ie Pyschic Dedication. Requirement is Int 14 or Cha 14 so it is very cheap for any of the caster classes to afford.
On top of that Amp Guidance is a good alternative pick for any class that doesn't have a good reaction or focus spell.
I'm expecting to see a lot of this.
I think the thing that will prevent this from being an issue is that it really looks like it takes the whole party buying into this character being the striker and the rest setting it up for the damage to pay off consistently. If that is the case, no one will really feel let down by the striker striking good.
But in free-for-all parties that kinda stumble into/through combat, I am highly suspicious that the consistent damage output will be so high that it breaks the game math, which would happen like it did in PF1 where certain builds just destroyed encounters so quickly that GMs had to basically rewrite the whole AP once their players started optimizing.
Maybe I am wrong about this, and the builds will start streaming in once enough players have had time to start new campaigns and getting to level 7 with their dark archive books in hand. If it does start to happen and is really disrupting games, I imagine we’ll get some soft nerf FAQ about how amping and spellstrike were never meant to work together. I’m skeptical it will be necessary though as it is a kind of build GMs can pretty easily shut down in play if it is disrupting their game.
I would not be inclined to build it for the two games I get to play in though, simply because 3 action routines with no flexibility very rarely work out more often than once per session at the tables I play at. I am pretty sure after pulling off one of these big hits with a crit, the GMs would be pretty active in not leaving my character alone in the back row very often. I’ve already seen that with gunslingers, and they are way more flexible with their actions.
Here you go.
Thanks for the numbers.
This is a totally stationary Magus still. There will be rounds the spell strike doesn't happen.
I think a slighly better option would be to compare a 4 turn routine with 2 3-action turns and 2 turns with movement.Here you go.Thanks for the numbers.
This is a totally stationary Magus still. There will be rounds the spell strike doesn't happen.
Then don't hold a staff.Don't you run out of True Strikes pretty quickly without the Staff of Divination?
Psychic basic spellcasting gives you 3, the level 7 class feature gives you 2, Ring of Wizardry (if you get one) gives you 2-3 and at high levels, when you start needing 2 TS per combat, you can use TS scrolls and Retrieval Prisms, as they start getting pretty inexpensive when you are level 12+.
From reading this thread, it seems the Starlift Span Magus is the best ranged striker in the game. And the Psychic AT gives them a nova to rival the strongest melee martials. I'm going to have to keep an eye on it.
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It's kind of surprising how invested some people are in the idea that Starlit Span Magi aren't good.
No one is saying they aren't good. Just that they do have some limitations. Comparing optimal rounds to say X is better than Y, or X is too strong, has to be understood with some context. The analysis hasn't included reactions for example.
Personally I think a Magus really needs to get on an independent mount to cope with basic movement and action efficiency. But given that there are a number of Magus builds/hybrid studies that look very good.
It's kind of surprising how invested some people are in the idea that Starlit Span Magi aren't good.
I doubt its an issue, any Magus Build that relies on True StrikeThat's not really a thing. 'Rely' implies the build somehow magically falls apart if you don't have true strike, but that's not really the case. It's just a significant damage multiplier on any round you get to pull it off.
Telekinetic Projectile was already a d8TKP is a d6.
The whole two step of "I am holding a staff and a bow in each hand, activate the staff, then drop the staff as a free action, cast a spell, then knock an arrow and fire" seems like it might be an issue. I know it's an etiquette thing to let players keep their gear, but I'd be concerned about leaving a 4000 gp staff lying on the ground especially if I'm forced to move off the square where I left it.Then don't hold a staff.
I mean sure, but the action economy is pretty deterministic, if you can only True Strike Round One and follow it up with a spell strike, then you have to recharge spell strike, which usually costs an action, and then you need to conserve two actions to spellstrike again, if you dont spellstrike in a round to try and massage the economy you lose too much value and are better off just spell striking because True Strike isn't worth it.
To get more Truestrikes off, you would need to use Rapid Recharge, which only becomes an option at 10 and can only be used once per day.
It's kind of surprising how invested some people are in the idea that Starlit Span Magi aren't good.
I doubt its an issue, any Magus Build that relies on True StrikeThat's not really a thing. 'Rely' implies the build somehow magically falls apart if you don't have true strike, but that's not really the case. It's just a significant damage multiplier on any round you get to pull it off.
Telekinetic Projectile was already a d8TKP is a d6.
The whole two step of "I am holding a staff and a bow in each hand, activate the staff, then drop the staff as a free action, cast a spell, then knock an arrow and fire" seems like it might be an issue. I know it's an etiquette thing to let players keep their gear, but I'd be concerned about leaving a 4000 gp staff lying on the ground especially if I'm forced to move off the square where I left it.Then don't hold a staff.I mean sure, but the action economy is pretty deterministic, if you can only True Strike Round One and follow it up with a spell strike, then you have to recharge spell strike, which usually costs an action, and then you need to conserve two actions to spellstrike again, if you dont spellstrike in a round to try and massage the economy you lose too much value and are better off just spell striking because True Strike isn't worth it.
To get more Truestrikes off, you would need to use Rapid Recharge, which only becomes an option at 10 and can only be used once per day.
If you have TS left, it is OK to use a turn 2 as set-up to use another TS + Amped IW on turn 3. Even if you don't recharge them all early on, you still have 3 focus point per day, if you think the fight is getting to a turn 3 or 4, it is way better to do a Recharge, Strike/stride/Step, Strike turn 2 than going for cantrip Spellstrike spam. Magus are supposed to use their daily resources at some point, not just go on adventure days with infinite hours.
If you want the numbers, with the same type of encounters and routines Red Griffyn posted (I will shamelessly steal some of their numbers as well)
Magus Composite Shortbow, Recharge + Strike x2
L06 - 11'1 Average Damage
L10 - 14'85 Average Damage
L15 - 25'33 Average Damage
L20 - 30'7 Average Damage
Average damage per turn on TS + Amped IW SS/Recharge + Strike x2/TS + Amped IW SS
L06 - 33'65 Average Damage
L10 - 56'53 Average Damage
L15 - 86'6 Average Damage
L20 - 108'41 Average Damage
Average damage per turn on TS + Amped IW SS/Recharge + Strike x2/TS + Amped IW SS/Recharge + non-amped IW SS
L06 - 30'54 Average Damage
L10 - 51'51 Average Damage
L15 - 78'46 Average Damage
L20 - 98'43 Average Damage
At levels 6 and 10 you can do this in 2 encounters per day (3 if you have a familiar), as many as TS you have at levels 15 and 20. And again, this is a ranged character that also gets extra daily resources on top (and that we need to compare to a d12 wielding fighter, let that sink in). Even if you do a 4 turn routine where you get to TS+SS at turn 1 and turn 4 and need to do 2 turns with movement in a row, damage would still be really high (I don't want to do more numbers, but my estimates are a little bit under 90 average points of damage at level 20 for that).
No feats involved but the ones to get the Imaginary Weapon on the Magus.Which is just one ie Pyschic Dedication. Requirement is Int 14 or Cha 14 so it is very cheap for any of the caster classes to afford.
You need 2 of them to grab Imaginary Weapon as you need the level 6 feat, too.
This is a totally stationary Magus still. There will be rounds the spell strike doesn't happen.
You can also bring the melee Magus shenanigans to get an extra move action per turn. You have Clockwork Celerity from the Inventor, an Independent Familiar and Skittering Scuttle or just a Mature Animal Companion (you're a ranged character so you don't care much of the defensive abilities of your companions, they shouldn't get targeted).
It gets even easier if you play with the Free Archetype rule (which is not that uncommon). The movement issue is a low level one, at high level you should get rid of it.I am highly suspicious that the consistent damage output will be so high that it breaks the game math
It doesn't really break the game math. From a GM point of view, the only issue is when the Magus starts with a critical hit: it can really trivialize some fights.
The problem in my opinion comes from the players' point of view. The old "best damage dealers" were all melee ones, and as such quite easy to shut down by just focusing them. This build being a ranged one the Magus will certainly stay fine during most combats. And then, there's all the support the casters will give to the Magus (if they know a bit how to play their character) as it gains way more from buffs than other characters. So on top of extremely high damage the Magus will not take much heat and get a lot of support, which may definitely grow some resentment from other players, especially those who are playing non-optimized characters.
Just to exemplify what SuperBidi said:
For small ancestries
Lvl 2 Psychic Dedication
Lvl 4 Basic Psychic Spellcasting
Lvl 6 Psi Development
Lvl 8 Beastmaster Dedication
Lvl 10 Mature Animal Companion
If you don't want a small ancestry
Lvl 2 Psychic Dedication
Lvl 4 Basic Psychic Spellcasting
Lvl 6 Psi Development
Lvl 8 Inventor Dedication
Lvl 10 Searing Restoration
Lvl 12 Conflux Focus/Clockwork Celerity
Lvl 14 Clockwork Celerity/Conflux Focus
You can also go Sixth Pillar, but it is both from an AP and marked for errata. With FA, the Beastmaster one accelerates the Mature companion to level 8 and the Inventor can get Clockwork Celerity at 12 without any compromise of any kind.
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The thing about supporting a melee striker is that parties are generally built to do that well.
Champions love a melee striker. They get to defend them with reactions, heal them and provide flanking. Protecting a ranged striker is a lot more difficult, not just for champions (who pretty much don’t work with ranged, immobile strikers who don’t want to be close to the enemy.
Prone is also a condition to really watch out for with this build. It and slow are 2 killers for you. Grabbed is bad, but prone is definitely worse.
It seems like superbidi is used to ranged characters getting left alone in combat. In my experience strikers get focused on regardless of where they are. My great maul elven fighter only needs a single crit too, to pretty much ruin any enemies plans, all while doing heafty damage. At level 12, on a crit an enemy is frightened 2, prone, and is thus -4 to AC vs the very probable AoO incoming. The character can move 70 ft at still get 2 attacks in in a turn without any buffing from any caster. Rangewise, that beats the shortbow magus.
Of course the GM hates my character and focuses on them relentlessly. With blind fight, fog spells are wonderful (solid fog is my favorite playground). The wizard, champion, bard that fill out the party all provide wonderful support without really going out of their way to do so. Enemies pretty much have to focus fire on the melee striker or they end up dead very quickly.
The magus damage will vastly exceed my maul fighter. The magus will probably only need to hit 1 time for every 2 or 3 times my maul fighter does. A champion with a ranged magus is basically a wasted character so we can replace that with probably a maul fighter would be the best tank-like support for the magus, except without the champion of the spell casting defenses that will cause the magus problems, that character is going to go down fast. It is a party that goes first, hits, and wins, or is probably TPK’d by found 3 or 4. I guess that is sort of the trade off with the ranged striker.
At high level AoE threats from multiple lower level enemies are the big threat encounters. Even a lot of martial build monsters have them in the 10-15 range. Companions with minimal investment get shredded as mounts from AoE. Mounts also give you a -2 to reflex saves and most GMs I have played with make the mounted character fall prone if the mount is knocked prone. A medium sized mount is not usually to disruptive, but I see lots of parties struggle with large or bigger mounts on the smaller maps of many AP dungeons (part of why I try to get bigger with my maps when I GM).
I am not saying this character won’t have moments to shine, but I struggle to see how they will be difficult to shut down/take out of the equation by almost any kind of enemy. I am a huge defender of true strike and agree that on a character like a magus, I don’t want to be unleashing the big strike until I can true strike it or spend a hero point on it. The thing is for other casters, spell attack roll spells with true strike are a very solid back up option to have in your pocket, while you primarily focus on targeting saving throws. You pull it out situationally when you are facing a scary solo monster that is currently preoccupied by the rest of your party.
For the magus, it is plan A, B and C. I think that is going to get really limiting, really quickly.
Prone is only an issue if they use an action to Take Cover.
My post mentioned getting knocked prone because it is a big problem for the magus. It is a -2 to attack rolls and wastes an action to stand.
Yes the maul fighter feasts on knocking enemies prone and knocking enemies prone that cannot spend an action to take cover is useful for the magus too, but they don't have a way of doing that with their standard routine, so it will have to come from somewhere else, and a prone enemy fighting a magus might just choose to remain prone and take cover at the end of their turn, causing the magus more problems.
The thing about supporting a melee striker is that parties are generally built to do that well.
I disagree with you on many points.
First, in a party of 4 characters, the Magus will certainly take the place of a Wizard (it's an Arcane caster after all). So you have 2 melee characters, a healer/buffer and the Magus. As suchyou can have a Champion as the melee characters will have to take the heat.
In a party of 5, the Magus will certainly be the 5th character with 2 melee characters and 2 casters.
Second, you say Spellstrike is plan A, B and C. It's not true, as the Magus is also a caster. And if you care to explain what are plan B and C for your Fighter I'm interested. Because martial's single plan is in general to hit things.
Third, you show how your Fighter is a big issue in your party. It's both the main damage dealer and the main tank. Losing him is getting directly to a TPK. Your party supports you not because they want to but because it's the only solution for the party.
By separating the tank and the damage dealer role, a party with a Magus is more adaptable. If the tank goes down, it's bad but at least you deal damage. If the damage dealer goes down, it's bad but at least the tank can save the day.
Putting all your eggs in the same basket is not a good strategy, especially in PF2 where critical hits and critical failures to save happen.
Then, you say the Magus will be sad if prone. But it won't be prone as it's in the back (at least not often). Backline characters don't take much heat (I play a lot of casters, so I know that). Also, the Magus has honorable HPs and AC, so it's not exactly weak if targeted.
And you raise Reflex saves issue when the Starlit Span Magus is a Dex-based character. So it should have at least decent saves.
Having an archer in a party is not exactly the end of the world. May I remind you that I play Age of Ashes with a bow Ranger. He's not often targeted, he spends most of the fights without moving and is rarely the one getting hit by conditions. It's true that he's not a massive damage dealer like the Magus would be, but the Fighter and Paladin of the party make a great job at blocking enemies so he wouldn't end in a bad spot even if the enemies decide to go for him.
Prone is also a condition to really watch out for with this build. It and slow are 2 killers for you. Grabbed is bad, but prone is definitely worse.
Turns out action denial works just as well for enemies as it does players. Good luck finding anything that doesn't get hosed by it though. Next you'll tell us that casters are all useless because enemies can trip+slow and then layer silence on top the same as players can.
a prone enemy fighting a magus might just choose to remain prone and take cover at the end of their turn, causing the magus more problems.
A net +/-0 AC (taking cover while prone doesn't remove flat-footed) that eats an action and needs to be reapplied if they move or attack sounds like a win for the party. If it's a caster doing it they're still eating the melee reaction attacks on cast if they haven't already been locked out by silence 4.
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It seems to me that the Starlit Span magus is tuned a little too high, in comparison to other magi and, with this new option, in comparison to other martials as well. The fact that Starlit Span is doing this damage at range is what flips it from being not that big a deal to somewhat of a concern.
I'd prefer to see this kind of damage gated by their spell slots, rather than by focus points, and I'd also prefer magi to want to use Magus focus spells in general.
Given that, my tentative stance on this is that I'd flag Starlit Span as "potentially problematic". Without specific shenanigans, it's unlikely to pose any sort of real issue in play, but with those shenanigans it could cause friction between other ranged players or damage dealers who care about being #1. The meta-"problem" of it becoming a common choice for powergamers is not really something I'm concerned about.
It seems to me that the Starlit Span magus is tuned a little too high, in comparison to other magi and, with this new option, in comparison to other martials as well. The fact that Starlit Span is doing this damage at range is what flips it from being not that big a deal to somewhat of a concern.
I'd prefer to see this kind of damage gated by their spell slots, rather than by focus points, and I'd also prefer magi to want to use Magus focus spells in general.
Given that, my tentative stance on this is that I'd flag Starlit Span as "potentially problematic". Without specific shenanigans, it's unlikely to pose any sort of real issue in play, but with those shenanigans it could cause friction between other ranged players or damage dealers who care about being #1. The meta-"problem" of it becoming a common choice for powergamers is not really something I'm concerned about.
This is how I see it as well. Not a balance threat, but a "feels bad" element for players and ocasionally GMs. A problem still.
Taking cover while prone is a +4 to AC while still being flat-footed (so at least a +2). It is not often a great idea, but when fighting a Magus who is blowing through limited resources, it is not a bad option. It is also decent against gunslingers sometimes, but gunslingers rarely run out of shots.
What I mean by SpellStriking being the A,B, and C plan is actually more of a starlit span issue than a magus generally issue.
Magus focus spells and arcane cascade all help supplement the tactical options for a melee magus, giving them something else meaningful to do when they can't spell strike, that also likely makes their next spell strike hit harder. Maybe they aren't great "do first" options, but they are better than nothing action uses that make the magus more threatening later.
The starlit magus doesn't really get that. If you can't get three actions to spell strike, you are stuck at champion with a bow levels of martial striking. Maybe you have one or two spell slot spells with AoE, but you are a weak caster with limited spell slots for casting. The magi I have seen usually end up going with buffing spells in spell slots, and try to cast those before combat, although sometimes it is a decent first turn to buff and move, and I can see that being true for the Starlit span too.
I agree that putting your striker and tank together is an aggressive, risky tactic. But replacing a full caster controller/buffer/damage dealer with a 90% striker is only doubling down on the aggressive risk. Enemies don't double down on fighting the wizard and bard in my party because the Fighter who gets 2 free actions improve knockdowns even the solo monster and is doing so much more damage, that it just isn't possible to focus on anyone else. My party is pretty classical in having a Defender, a striker, a Support character and a controller. The champion loves the amount of attention the fighter draws because they get to use their reaction basically every round and don't have to focus so much on trying to be the toughest tank imaginable, because drawing fire away from the fighter is almost impossible to do until the fighter is unconscious.
Your argument here is really that parties should just drop the controller and have at least 2 strikers. You are not talking about the magus competing with the melee striker for a place in the party, you are saying that bow magus does enough damage to possibly allow parties to just go all in on striking. In short encounters against not a whole lot of enemies, I think that will work out pretty well for you. If your GM doesn't have enemies run and raise the alarm or otherwise bring the fort down on you, it will probably work out even better. Not having at least one full caster controller would hurt in the games I play in and run though. With the exception of the Outlaws of Alkenstar game I am playing where it seems like ranged duels between powerful strikers is the encounter type the whole campaign is built for.
(As an aside, my typical turn as a maul fighter is: Am I fighting a solo monster? Try to wait to close until I can get 2 actions to improve knockdown attack them, perhaps even by just delaying and letting the champion rush ahead before me and take a round of attacks, or let the monster move to me. Then, once they are down, it is time to hammer away at them. If it is one of many foes, then I usually will just attack regularly. If I have to move or stand up or am slow, it is not really that big a deal because that first attack is about as powerful, with as good a chance to crit as exists in the game. Yes I have sweep, and improved knock down and will use those when the situation presents themselves, and they are wonderful fun (sweeping a crit with a frightening maul and combat reflexes is awesome) but I only need 1 action a turn to attack to be pretty much as competent a damage dealer and partial controller as most other martials can be, and it keeps myself the center of enemy aggression for most encounters. I don't have great defenses and it is not uncommon for me to end up unconscious once or twice in a challenging or long encounter. I brought this character in after my switch hitting rogue died, really just wanting to test the build, and kinda expecting to die eventually anyway because the character was so agro, but at level 8 the whole party decided we wanted to fight in difficult terrain with concealment as much as possible and blind fight is an absolutely amazing defensive feat for all martials, but especially ones that are not super focused on trying to land one big hit with each characters turn.)
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Are people really this annoyed that a class can 1-2 times a day spend 80% of their resources, their whole turn, while relying on the enemies being in a very specific spot, while requiring very specific items and feats is too strong because it deals a few more points of damage than a basic fighter with little to no investment. Seriously think about what you all are arguing about:
* A super specific build that has limited uses a day and has strict action, feat, and space requirements.
VS
* A basic fighter that can do their thing infinitely with minimal costs of any kind.
Instead of complaining that this one specific build is too strong people should start arguing that other builds are way too weak. Let's fix animal companions and summoned monsters, instead of spending days arguing "umm this is too strong because once I did 5 more damage this one time".
You're way off, Temperans. You should read the conversation again (or I should say at all) because you have missed a bunch of information.
No feats involved but the ones to get the Imaginary Weapon on the Magus.Which is just one ie Pyschic Dedication. Requirement is Int 14 or Cha 14 so it is very cheap for any of the caster classes to afford.You need 2 of them to grab Imaginary Weapon as you need the level 6 feat, too.
Ta. That is the difference between standard and unique cantrips requiring the second feat. I am fairly confident most GMs are going to exclude psi cantrips from Cantrip Expansion.
It means the Magus can't get this combination till level 6 and it costs them 2 feats. Psychic Dedication and Psi Development. Until then of course they can just use amped telekinetic projectile which is OK at 2d6 per spell level.
A Psychic multiclassed into Magus can do this from level 4 but only once per encounter and it is a much softer character.
No feats involved but the ones to get the Imaginary Weapon on the Magus.Which is just one ie Pyschic Dedication. Requirement is Int 14 or Cha 14 so it is very cheap for any of the caster classes to afford.You need 2 of them to grab Imaginary Weapon as you need the level 6 feat, too.
Ta. That is the difference between standard and unique cantrips requiring the second feat. But this is another limitation and reduces the scope of this. I am fairly confident most GMs are going to exclude psi cantrips from Cantrip Expansion.
It means the Magus can't get this combination till level 12 and it costs them 3 feats. Psychic Dedication, Basic Thoughtform and Advanced Thoughtform for Parallel Breakthrough. Until then of course they can just use amped telekinetic projectile which is OK at 2d6 per spell level.
A Psychic multiclassed into Magus can do this from level 4 but only once per encounter and it is a much softer character.
Psi Development will get you the amped cantrip with a 6th level feat from the archetype (not a 6th level Psychic Feat).
Psi Development will get you the amped cantrip with a 6th level feat from the archetype (not a 6th level Psychic Feat).
Thanks. Edited my post to reduce unnecessary confusion.
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I wonder if the nerf/errata couldn't be to swap Astral Rain and Imaginary Weapon as the surface/deeper cantrips. I know if I'm actually playing a Tangible Dream psychic (and thus am very squishy) I would much rather have Astral Rain's "Make a square dangerous to enter" than Imaginary Weapon's "Must be in Melee."
No feats involved but the ones to get the Imaginary Weapon on the Magus.Which is just one ie Pyschic Dedication. Requirement is Int 14 or Cha 14 so it is very cheap for any of the caster classes to afford.You need 2 of them to grab Imaginary Weapon as you need the level 6 feat, too.
Ta. That is the difference between standard and unique cantrips requiring the second feat. I am fairly confident most GMs are going to exclude psi cantrips from Cantrip Expansion.
It means the Magus can't get this combination till level 6 and it costs them 2 feats. Psychic Dedication and Psi Development. Until then of course they can just use amped telekinetic projectile which is OK at 2d6 per spell level.
A Psychic multiclassed into Magus can do this from level 4 but only once per encounter and it is a much softer character.
Also they are stuck with it as a melee power, since you can’t get ranged spell strikes from the MC.
Also they are stuck with it as a melee power, since you can’t get ranged spell strikes from the MC.No feats involved but the ones to get the Imaginary Weapon on the Magus.Which is just one ie Pyschic Dedication. Requirement is Int 14 or Cha 14 so it is very cheap for any of the caster classes to afford.You need 2 of them to grab Imaginary Weapon as you need the level 6 feat, too.
Ta. That is the difference between standard and unique cantrips requiring the second feat. I am fairly confident most GMs are going to exclude psi cantrips from Cantrip Expansion.
It means the Magus can't get this combination till level 6 and it costs them 2 feats. Psychic Dedication and Psi Development. Until then of course they can just use amped telekinetic projectile which is OK at 2d6 per spell level.
A Psychic multiclassed into Magus can do this from level 4 but only once per encounter and it is a much softer character.
It'd work with Eldritch Archer though, right?
Edit: neither being great given your weapon proficiency. But from a technical point of view only, I believe it would be an option. More relevant for a Beast Gunner Gunslinger into Psychic than anything, but you're at a full three action routine there.
I wonder if the nerf/errata couldn't be to swap Astral Rain and Imaginary Weapon as the surface/deeper cantrips. I know if I'm actually playing a Tangible Dream psychic (and thus am very squishy) I would much rather have Astral Rain's "Make a square dangerous to enter" than Imaginary Weapon's "Must be in Melee."
I don't see that it needs a nerf or errata at all though. Just because it's the current best option for a ranged build doesn't mean that it's out of line. It just means that after a few years of content there's something else rubbing shoulders with the top cut of crb content.
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I think one of the reasons to change imaginary weapon is that it's something that an actual Tangible Dream psychic will get very little use out of, which is different from the other surface cantrips. You could make a case that for an actual psychic Imaginary Weapon is the single worst surface cantrip (it's probably that or Distortion Lens). If Imaginary Weapon were straight up replaced with something the Psychic would want, that would be fine.
Also they are stuck with it as a melee power, since you can’t get ranged spell strikes from the MC.No feats involved but the ones to get the Imaginary Weapon on the Magus.Which is just one ie Pyschic Dedication. Requirement is Int 14 or Cha 14 so it is very cheap for any of the caster classes to afford.You need 2 of them to grab Imaginary Weapon as you need the level 6 feat, too.
Ta. That is the difference between standard and unique cantrips requiring the second feat. I am fairly confident most GMs are going to exclude psi cantrips from Cantrip Expansion.
It means the Magus can't get this combination till level 6 and it costs them 2 feats. Psychic Dedication and Psi Development. Until then of course they can just use amped telekinetic projectile which is OK at 2d6 per spell level.
A Psychic multiclassed into Magus can do this from level 4 but only once per encounter and it is a much softer character.
It'd work with Eldritch Archer though, right?
Edit: neither being great given your weapon proficiency. But from a technical point of view only, I believe it would be an option. More relevant for a Beast Gunner Gunslinger into Psychic than anything, but you're at a full three action routine there.
Yes it would, but you would be stuck with Hero points for making it land. No truestrike for Eldritch archers. This also makes it hurt pretty bad for the accuracy issues with being a psychic. By itself, Imaginary weapon is highly limited because of its range. So even though the spell itself breaks the math on the rest of touch range, just damage spell slot spells it is difficult to use as brutally for anyone other than a starlit span magus.
Before reading note that I recognize this isn't in any way how the rules seem to be, but it might be a reasonable adjustment by Paizo (or in homebrew) if and when any issues arise from this combination (even though I'm in the camp that expects those to be minimal).
One solution could be to reinterpret that Imaginary Weapon needs to be wielded such that it wouldn't interact w/ Spellstrike or Eldritch Shot?
As in the attack Strikes the creature, forms a separate weapon via the carried spell, and that weapon does nothing as it's not being wielded. Or that casting and making the weapon is an effect that simply cannot be placed within, much like Hand of the Apprentice interacts poorly with Spellstrike despite being a spell attack spell.
This might have repercussions on similar spells like Gouging Claw, but otherwise seems fair, that is again if there's enough imbalance to require such adjustment for fairness.
I could see something like "A class with actual accuracy taking both the Eldritch Archer archetype and the Psychic Archetype" but that's going to take a long time to come online.
The Eldritch Archer seems balanced around the fact that people taking it will either have respectable bow accuracy or respectable spellcasting, but not both. I guess you could maybe be a warpriest of a bow-loving deity with focus spell that requires a spell attack roll, but the divine list doesn't have much for you.
I could see something like "A class with actual accuracy taking both the Eldritch Archer archetype and the Psychic Archetype" but that's going to take a long time to come online.
The Eldritch Archer seems balanced around the fact that people taking it will either have respectable bow accuracy or respectable spellcasting, but not both. I guess you could maybe be a warpriest of a bow-loving deity with focus spell that requires a spell attack roll, but the divine list doesn't have much for you.
Eldritch Archer and Beast Gunner both allow you to completely ignore spell accuracy for weapon accuracy, by my reading. I do remember a bit of a debate, especially with spells that might themselves carry a bonus to hit or apply flat-footed, but unless I am misremembering your weapon attack roll resolves both.
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What I meant is "Eldritch Archer either leaves you with bad accuracy or a paucity of spells". You might just have the one cantrip the archetype gives you.
Another very real reason the imaginary weapon starlit span magus isn’t getting rolled out a lot in actual play probably has to do with having to pick shield or dancing lights as your psychic cantrip at level 2. Shield isn’t the worst spell, but it isn’t what anyone is playing a starlit magus to cast. 4 levels is a long turn around on a dedication for many players to come to organically.
I think one of the reasons to change imaginary weapon is that it's something that an actual Tangible Dream psychic will get very little use out of, which is different from the other surface cantrips. You could make a case that for an actual psychic Imaginary Weapon is the single worst surface cantrip (it's probably that or Distortion Lens). If Imaginary Weapon were straight up replaced with something the Psychic would want, that would be fine.
IW is hardly the first focus spell to be better on another class. See sorc's demon jaws or dragon claws. It's not even the first attack spell to be better on the magus than on the base class. Before IW the build was using cleric's fire ray which the cleric itself isn't ever going to use without true strike through an archetype.
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Fire Ray works fine on a Cleric- it's a spell attack and they get full scaling for spellcasting (if cloistered) and it's ranged. I would prefer going forward they stop giving focus spells that require melee for people who have 6 HP/level and bad defensive proficiencies. I'd be happy if Demon Jaws and Dragon Jaws were replaced by something that does not require the sorcerer to be in danger to use.
Imaginary Weapon is not really the problem here. With Fire Ray, the Starlit Span Magus is already causing issues, as it tingles the best melee martials while clearly outdamaging all ranged one. Imaginary Weapon just make the issue more visible.
I also think the Starlit Span Magus existence should not limit the power level of all spell attack roll spells in the game. Ranged Spellstrike has to be rein down.
There are simple solutions: Limit Spellstrike to Magus spells or make ranged Spellstrike a 3-action routine for example. They limited Psychic abilities to Psychic spellcasting so I think the first one would be the go to way to avoid shenanigans with the Magus (I dislike that optimized Maguses all get a Focus Spell outside their class, that's not PF2 design).
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I'd be happy if Demon Jaws and Dragon Jaws were replaced by something that does not require the sorcerer to be in danger to use.
Or if there was something added to such spells that only helped d6, squishy characters who are ostensibly supposed to use them, like bonus temp HP.