Smokesight

[pad300]

Ok, Wizard - School: Elemental Air, Subschool: Smoke

Gets Smokesight as a 1st level power.

Smokesight (Su): You can see normally through natural fog and smoke, as well as any fog and smoke that you (but not others) magically create. A number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence bonus, you can touch another creature as a standard action to grant it this vision for 1 hour.

Does a magic item you use count as you creating it? Eg. a Eversmoking Bottle that you own and unstopper.

[Diego Rossi]

Not really clear. I would say that it works with a spell you cast or a SU ability you have, not with items, but mine is an opinion.
The only solution is to ask your GM. His interpretation will be the RAW at your table.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The way I would handle it would be that if you use your own ability scores, feats and caster level it counts as being created by you. If you don’t use those it is the item creating the effect, so it does not work. So, the Eversmoking Bottle would not be considered created by you, but a spell from a staff would be.

[Claxon]

I agree with Mysterious Stranger, that it ultimately would not work to use an Eversmoking bottle with Smokesight.

[pad300]

So essentially, the ability should suck hard, compared to the 2nd level spell, Ashen Path? Ashen Path will work with magic items, as it benefits against all magical smoke... as well as being an effective defense against enemy smoke tactics. It also is kind of poor that there are no non-debuffing smoke spells out there for wizards (at least I haven't found any).

[AwesomenessDog]

Nobody is out here saying that content released in 2017 after the announcement of 2e is the most well thought out or balanced. I'm pretty sure most people who have already commented here would sooner ban the Blood of the Ancients book in their games than they would retroactively change the wording of an ability already published to buff it to equivalent of something from said book.

[Claxon]

You're also talking about a level 1 ability vs a level 3 (minimum to cast 2nd level spells) ability. Higher level abilities are usually better.

Besides which, if you found that spell you have another path to accomplish whatever it is you want.

Why are you upset?

[Diego Rossi]

Claxon wrote:

You're also talking about a level 1 ability vs a level 3 (minimum to cast 2nd level spells) ability. Higher level abilities are usually better.

Casting a spell "eat" resources. The School power gives resources to the caster, so, another reason why a School power is generally weaker than a spell that does something similar.

Note that Smokesight hasn't a duration listed for the wizard with it, so it is always on, and it has a long duration for other people (1 hour for each use and several daily uses). Ashen Path lasts 10 minutes/level, it allows one to see through magical fog or smoke, but not through mundane fog or smoke, and has a limited range, against unlimited for Smokesight.

All included, I don't think that Smokesight sucks hard when compared to Ashen Path. In a pseudo-realistic setting, as a lord of a settlement, I will push at least some guards into taking a level as a Wizard with the Elemental Air school (depending on my home region, obviously. It is way more useful in Scotland than in Lybia).

Usefulness for an adventurer can be way more variable.

[Pizza Lord]

pad300 wrote:

So essentially, the ability should suck hard, compared to the 2nd level spell, Ashen Path?

It looks like Smokesight is always in effect on you, and you can grant it a number of times per day to others.

Ashen Fog does protect against natural inhalants of smoke and fog (and a +4 bonus against magical affects from it). Technically, by the wording of the spell, ashen fog only allows the target to see through the 'magical' smoke and fog.

Quote:

The creature suffers no ill effects from natural airborne irritants or contaminants and gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against magical effects that involve any of these contaminants.

Quote:

In addition, the creature can see through magical obscuring effects caused by dense ash, smoke, fog, or similar concealment up to a distance of 60 feet, although this spell does nothing to enhance sight in dark or shadowy conditions.

The fact that the spell specifies both natural and magical as descriptors (protection from natural inhalants and a bonus against magical inhalants and then specifically the ability to see through magical obscurement), the rules would strongly lean towards it only working against magical smoke and fog effects; pyrotechnics, obscuring mist etc. but not against natural, non-magical smoke and fog.

Is that the intention? We can argue that all night, but it's the Rules Forum and the wording is very explicit in the spell. It goes out of its way when describing natural and magical properties for one effect and then only magical for another.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Compared to most 1st level school powers this is pretty good. Evocation gives you a single magic missile that does 1d4 points of damage. It does not gain multiple missiles as you level up. That sucks compared to the spell magic missile which is a 1st level spell.

Being able to ignore all natural fog and smoke all the time alone is pretty good. Then throw in the fact you can ignore your own magical fog and smoke makes it even better. On top of that you can grant the ability to the whole party for an hour. At first level you can grant the entire part the ability to see through your Obscuring Mist. Since it lasts an hour, you can easily do this well before you cast the spell. Then the party picks off the enemy who cannot see them. As you level up you get access to better fog spells. By third level you have stinking could and your party still ignores the cover from it. That is your idea of sucking?

[Derklord]

pad300 wrote:

So essentially, the ability should suck hard, compared to the 2nd level spell, Ashen Path?

No, what the ability should do is what it says is does.

Balancing never affects or changes the RAW. Your argument is a logical fallacy, as it falsely assumes that the game was perfectly balanced and that thus something imbalance must be misunderstood. But the game isn't perfectly balanced, and therefore imbalance can not be be evidence or even indication.

[Ryze Kuja]

pad300 wrote:

So essentially, the ability should suck hard, compared to the 2nd level spell, Ashen Path? Ashen Path will work with magic items, as it benefits against all magical smoke... as well as being an effective defense against enemy smoke tactics. It also is kind of poor that there are no non-debuffing smoke spells out there for wizards (at least I haven't found any).

This is actually a really powerful ability for a 1st level school power. I would keep Obscuring Mist and/or Fog Cloud memorized on a daily basis, and anytime poop hits the proverbial fan, give your allies Smokesight and cast one of these spells, and now your enemies have to fight against your allies who are treated as concealed (20% miss) or totally concealed (50% miss) while your allies are unaffected. Use Obscuring Mist if you need mobile concealment centered on you, or use Fog Cloud if you want to lock down a chokepoint or blanket a 40ft diameter section of the battlemap.

Quote:

Obscuring Mist

School conjuration (creation); Level cleric/oracle 1, druid 1, magus 1, shaman 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, unchained summoner 1, witch 1; Domain air 1, darkness 1, water 1, weather 1; Bloodline ectoplasm 1; Elemental School water 1

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range 20 ft.
Effect cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius from you, 20 ft. high
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION

A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).

A moderate wind (11+ mph), such as from a gust of wind spell, disperses the fog in 4 rounds. A strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round. A fireball, flame strike, or similar spell burns away the fog in the explosive or fiery spell’s area. A wall of fire burns away the fog in the area into which it deals damage.

This spell does not function underwater.

Quote:

Fog Cloud

Contents [show]

School conjuration (creation); Level druid 2, magus 2, shaman 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, unchained summoner 2, witch 2; Domain water 2, weather 2; Elemental School water 2; Mystery battle 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft. level)
Effect fog spreads in 20-ft. radius
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

DESCRIPTION

A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target).

A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round.

The spell does not function underwater.

If you end up making this a commonly-used strategy, you should probably get your party's primary martials some Fogcutting Lenses so you don't have to spend your turns moving to and touching them. Or, just be really proactive about handing out Smokesight buffs to aliies prior to combat.

[Fieve1974]

Quote:

basket random said:
Ok, Wizard - School: Elemental Air, Subschool: Smoke

Gets Smokesight as a 1st level power.

Smokesight (Su): You can see normally through natural fog and smoke, as well as any fog and smoke that you (but not others) magically create. A number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence bonus, you can touch another creature as a standard action to grant it this vision for 1 hour.

Does a magic item you use count as you creating it? Eg. a Eversmoking Bottle that you own and unstopper.

using a magic item like an Eversmoking Bottle, even if you own and unstopper it, would not grant you the ability to see through the fog or smoke created by the item. The ability specifically grants you the vision to see through fog and smoke that you magically create, indicating that it is limited to abilities or effects that you generate through your own powers.