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Gortle wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Agreed, you mentioned Crushing Grab what level would you train out of this?...
If you are grappling almost every round then Crushing Grab is +3 to +7 damage fairly often. Yes at high level that is not all that much. When you retrain you get to pick another feat of that level. So what are you replacing it with? I don't know that is very build specific. I'm not sure I would.

Later on I could see replacing the Crushing Grab that you mentioned with Clinching Strike as a Barbarian does hit hard. Probably not with a Swashbuckler though.


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Atalius wrote:
I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?

If you're going barbarian, you're better off with Brutal Bully than with Crushing Grab. Of course, you *can* take both.

Also, if you're going with the Barbarian chassis, don't sleep on Thrash. MAPless damage is useful.


Atalius wrote:
I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?

My question for you is why do you expect that there is only one true path?

Both builds are valid. Choose the flavour you like.

Animal Barbarian works fine. It is nice in that you have your hands free. The Rage is a good damage add so you have good offensive value.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Atalius wrote:
I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?

If you're going barbarian, you're better off with Brutal Bully than with Crushing Grab. Of course, you *can* take both.

Also, if you're going with the Barbarian chassis, don't sleep on Thrash. MAPless damage is useful.

Wouldn't I want Furious Bully instead of Brutal Bully?


Gortle wrote:
Atalius wrote:
I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?

My question for you is why do you expect that there is only one true path?

Both builds are valid. Choose the flavour you like.

Animal Barbarian works fine. It is nice in that you have your hands free. The Rage is a good damage add so you have good offensive value.

Indeed my man, that is the struggle, I am stuck thinking there is only one path. While the swash is God mode for Manuevers post level 10, he seems pretty lackluster as a pure wrestler prior to that. The barbarian does have solid wrestling feats like the ones mentioned in previous posts, plus a serious ability to bring the pain. I think that would be a lot more fun then just grab/trip every round, every fight. Which animal instinct do you like for the barbarian wrestler?


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Atalius wrote:
Wouldn't I want Furious Bully instead of Brutal Bully?

Brutal Bully is the equivalent to Crushign Grasp - it does the same thign, but requires you to be in rage, and applies it to more maneuvers than just grab... but they stack.

Furious Bully gives you a nice, beefy circumstance bonus to do these things, and is *also* good.

I've just noticed, though... there's another path for the barbarian. Consider Furious Grab. If you really like the Wrestler moves, and you'd rather focus on attacks vs AC instead of athletics checks, then Furious Grab will let you skip those rolls entirely, which means that you have basically no reason to reach for Brutal Bully, Crushing Grasp, or Furious Bully. At that point, all you care about off of Barbarian is Furious Grab, Thrash, and (when you get high enough) Collateral Thrash.

...though, given that it only really kicks in at level 12, you might consider starting out with a different plan and then retraining into that one.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Wouldn't I want Furious Bully instead of Brutal Bully?

Brutal Bully is the equivalent to Crushign Grasp - it does the same thign, but requires you to be in rage, and applies it to more maneuvers than just grab... but they stack.

Furious Bully gives you a nice, beefy circumstance bonus to do these things, and is *also* good.

I've just noticed, though... there's another path for the barbarian. Consider Furious Grab. If you really like the Wrestler moves, and you'd rather focus on attacks vs AC instead of athletics checks, then Furious Grab will let you skip those rolls entirely, which means that you have basically no reason to reach for Brutal Bully, Crushing Grasp, or Furious Bully. At that point, all you care about off of Barbarian is Furious Grab, Thrash, and (when you get high enough) Collateral Thrash.

...though, given that it only really kicks in at level 12, you might consider starting out with a different plan and then retraining into that one.

This is a very good point, good find! Yes I think at level 12 retraining for this is a great way to go. Will give me more feats for other things. But isn't it typically harder to hit someone's AC rather than an athletics check to grab? Though I would think a barbarians first attack would have a good enough attack bonus to be successfully pretty often?


Atalius wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Atalius wrote:
I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?

If you're going barbarian, you're better off with Brutal Bully than with Crushing Grab. Of course, you *can* take both.

Also, if you're going with the Barbarian chassis, don't sleep on Thrash. MAPless damage is useful.

Wouldn't I want Furious Bully instead of Brutal Bully?

Yes Furious Bully is the best option and one of the absolute top tier feats in the game. But this is the difficulty with the Animal Barbarian.

At level 6 you want Animal Skin, Attack of Opportunity, Brutal Bully

At level 8 you want Furious Bully, there is also some nice to haves like Friendly Toss and Renewed Vigor.

At level 10 there are so OK feats but nothing you must have.

At level 12 you want Embrace the Pain. You could take Furious Grab too but I like to restrain.

You can't take everything. What do you trim out?


Gortle wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Atalius wrote:
I guess I'm. Abit conflicted, I see two possible bases for the Wrestler. Either Starting out as Swashbuckler and of course becoming a God at level 10 and beyond (campaign is 1-20). Or the other base I see is Animal Barbarian (Deer Instinct for eventual 10ft reach and that D10 fist). Again I see this character (and correct me if I'm wrong) being able to do more damage with his grapples and being tankier. He would likely I think pickup Wrestler at 2, Suplex at 4, Animal Skin at 6, Whirling Throw at 8. I have no room for Crushing Grab, Would you recommend Crushing Grab over Animal Skin? And in general what are your thoughts on the Barbarian chassis?

If you're going barbarian, you're better off with Brutal Bully than with Crushing Grab. Of course, you *can* take both.

Also, if you're going with the Barbarian chassis, don't sleep on Thrash. MAPless damage is useful.

Wouldn't I want Furious Bully instead of Brutal Bully?

Yes Furious Bully is the best option and one of the absolute top tier feats in the game. But this is the difficulty with the Animal Barbarian.

At level 6 you want Animal Skin, Attack of Opportunity, Brutal Bully

At level 8 you want Furious Bully, there is also some nice to haves like Friendly Toss and Renewed Vigor.

At level 10 there are so OK feats but nothing you must have.

At level 12 you want Embrace the Pain. You could take Furious Grab too but I like to restrain.

You can't take everything. What do you trim out?

I was thinking

2- Wrestler
4- Suplex
6- Brutal Bully
8- Furious Bully
10- Thrash
12- Embrace the Pain or Furious Grab

The biggest problem is level 8, it's either Whirling throw or Furious Bully :( I guess at level 12 if going Furious Grab we can just retrain Furious Bully and go Whirling Throw. What is the benefit of Animal Skin vs just throwing on some armor?


Ugh Thrash does require a fort save for half damage. I see why it's not a must have feat.


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Atalius wrote:
This is a very good point, good find! Yes I think at level 12 retraining for this is a great way to go. Will give me more feats for other things. But isn't it typically harder to hit someone's AC rather than an athletics check to grab? Though I would think a barbarians first attack would have a good enough attack bonus to be successfully pretty often?

The point about Furious Grab is that it works every time. You take swings at people like a normal barbarian, and then if you hit, you get to automatically succeed at your grabbing with an action. It's a second or third action grab that just works. It means that you spend a bit more of your time hitting people, rather than actually grappling, but as a barbarian, that isn't a terrible thing.

Atalius wrote:
Ugh Thrash does require a fort save for half damage. I see why it's not a must have feat.

"Fort for half" is still a lot better than a standard attack. I'm not saying that you'd want to give up your one no-MAP attack for the round to thrash, but as a second or third? (...though in the case of a wrestler, you might well want to thrash first and make your attack later. Still works.)

As far as I can tell, animal skin is mostly 1 AC better than equivalent worn armor... and only works when raging. Technically it would also permit certain monk stances that standard armor would not, but that's the sort of thing that's not particularly practical for non-gestalts to exploit.


Ya very good points Sanity. Thrash seems to be worthwhile. Reevaluating it seems until level 12 I should be taking AOO above Brutal Bully at level 6 due to having reach via Deer. Then at 12 grab Embrace the Pain and retrain AOO for Animal Skin.


This wrestler seems to be more fun then the pure gymnast swash who deals pitiful damage. I thought about FoB via multitalented instead of Thrash at 10, but like it was said earlier FoB is a big time MAP accelerator and wouldn't really be great for this kind of character. I guess Human with adopted into Elf might be still good here getting Shield Cantrip and then Otherworldly Acumen at 9 to get Enlarge once a day. Does anyone recommend any other race? Adopted Halfling is appealing for the Luck feats but is it better then Shield (unlimited times a day) + Enlarge (once per day)? Not sold on Orc for bloody blows since it only applies to crits and an extra 1D4 persistent so doesn't kick in till the end of the round which means monster may be dead by then anyways.


Atalius wrote:
This wrestler seems to be more fun

This is the right reason to take things - it might be more fun.

To me Friendly Toss, Whirling Throw, Embrace the Pain are the fun character options. Just like a weapon with a big critical hit is perhaps a shade under a weapon with better average damage - it is just more satisfying when it comes off. If you like the story of a power so much the better.

Atalius wrote:
then the pure gymnast swash who deals pitiful damage.

The gymnast swashbuckler gets a few points from precise strike and a few more from their Exemplary Finisher, and can still stack on a status bonus. Even without using their finisher.

Atalius wrote:
I thought about FoB via multitalented instead of Thrash at 10, but like it was said earlier FoB is a big time MAP accelerator and wouldn't really be great for this kind of character.

FoB is still good action economy. For this character you want Flurry of Maneuvers as well. But there are other action economy measures as well.

The no MAP nature of Thrash means that it is worth while as a 3rd action. It's lower damage means its probably on par with a 2nd action attack. Depends what else you are planning on doing and if you like the image.


Gortle wrote:
Candlejake wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Pixel Popper wrote:
Gortle wrote:
... Because wrestling are Athletic checks everyone can get Legendary proficiency in them and because they are again Reflex or Fortitude DC they are typically against a lower defence than AC. Fighters don't have an advantage here...
The clincher is that many of the Wrestler Archetype's moves are not Athletics checks, but are Unarmed Strikes with a wrestling move rider à la Combat Grab. For those, the Fighter's greater accuracy is a benefit, particularly for a routine like: Grab (Athletics check, no MAP) then Suplex (Unarmed strike w/ MAP vs Flat-Footed).
I mean yes Suplex is an attack. Another in Wrestler is Aerial Piledriver. If that is what you want to do then go for it. But you already have the enemy grappled so you are under MAP, and you let go of the target when you do, so if you fail the roll your enemy is not prone and not flat footed to anyone else. Personally it sounds cool, it just seems like you have added a 60% failure chance to what you have already done ie grappled them. I just don't think its a good tactic just a fun one. I'd rather just strike.

I mean we are talking about the wrestler archetype. If you don't want to suplex or areal piledriver enemies... you probably wouldn't pick that archetype.

And it's not just Suplex and piledriver that require Unarmed strikes. Running tackle, elbow breaker and strangle do as well.
It's only a couple that require Athletics checks

I am here for the Athletics checks. I like Wrestler for Whirling Throw and Crushing Grab. The others not so much. Yes Suplex and Aerial Piledriver are good on the following turn. It is just that not all opponents get a following turn, and I may really want to prolong the grab. It really depends what I'm doing with the rest of the build.

But Gortle, Crushing Grab kinda sucks in the game say like after level 8+ as the damage becomes a bit lackluster :( Do you like any of the other wrestler feats besides Combat Grab and Whirling Throw? Whirling Throw seems like it would be Incredibly difficult to execute on anything two sizes larger than you?


I'm in for Spinebreaker and Submission Hold.


Atalius wrote:


But Gortle, Crushing Grab kinda sucks in the game say like after level 8+ as the damage becomes a bit lackluster :( Do you like any of the other wrestler feats besides Combat Grab and Whirling Throw? Whirling Throw seems like it would be Incredibly difficult to execute on anything two sizes larger than you?

I like Crushing Grab because it is just free damage for something I will be doing a lot of, and Whirling Throw because occasionally it is very effective. There are pretty of reasonable feats here if you like the flavour. Mechanically nothing that really demands to be taken.

I only like Combat Grab for Fighters and normally I prefer to wrestle with other classes like Champions and Swashbucklers

Enlarge effects are not that difficult to get. I'm kind of keen on a Wild Shape Druid Wrestler and T-Rexes don't tend to run into things that are two size clases larger than them.


Gortle wrote:
Atalius wrote:


But Gortle, Crushing Grab kinda sucks in the game say like after level 8+ as the damage becomes a bit lackluster :( Do you like any of the other wrestler feats besides Combat Grab and Whirling Throw? Whirling Throw seems like it would be Incredibly difficult to execute on anything two sizes larger than you?

I like Crushing Grab because it is just free damage for something I will be doing a lot of, and Whirling Throw because occasionally it is very effective. There are pretty of reasonable feats here if you like the flavour. Mechanically nothing that really demands to be taken.

I only like Combat Grab for Fighters and normally I prefer to wrestle with other classes like Champions and Swashbucklers

Enlarge effects are not that difficult to get. I'm kind of keen on a Wild Shape Druid Wrestler and T-Rexes don't tend to run into things that are two size clases larger than them.

Interesting, I ended up building a Barbarian Animal Instinct Wrestler. Your right though at level 10 I'm torn between so many good feats (Thrash, Whirling Throw, Friendly Toss). I guess a third action ability like Thrash or Whirling Throw would be best? Prior to that we've got AOO at 6, Furious Bully at 8. Those are too good to be anything else :( This druid idea you have, could a suplexing T-Rex be a thing? What did you have in mind?


Gortle, I wanted to ask what would be a good starting stat array for a barbarian Animal instinct Wrestler, would it be:

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 8

Or would you swap Wis with Dex and get yourself 14 Wis?


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Atalius wrote:

Gortle, I wanted to ask what would be a good starting stat array for a barbarian Animal instinct Wrestler, would it be:

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 8

Or would you swap Wis with Dex and get yourself 14 Wis?

Starting with a 14 Dex so that you are Animal Skin AC capped at level 6 sounds good to me, personally. And you still might want to continue boosting Dex beyond that to help cover pre-rage AC and Reflex saves.

This seems like a good array of you aren't planning on taking Raging Intimidation.


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Xethik wrote:
Atalius wrote:

Gortle, I wanted to ask what would be a good starting stat array for a barbarian Animal instinct Wrestler, would it be:

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 8

Or would you swap Wis with Dex and get yourself 14 Wis?

Starting with a 14 Dex so that you are Animal Skin AC capped at level 6 sounds good to me, personally. And you still might want to continue boosting Dex beyond that to help cover pre-rage AC and Reflex saves.

This seems like a good array of you aren't planning on taking Raging Intimidation.

I think you can drop it lower if you want to, Dex to 12 for Brestplate. Animal Skin is totally optional now isn't it?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
Xethik wrote:
Atalius wrote:

Gortle, I wanted to ask what would be a good starting stat array for a barbarian Animal instinct Wrestler, would it be:

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 8

Or would you swap Wis with Dex and get yourself 14 Wis?

Starting with a 14 Dex so that you are Animal Skin AC capped at level 6 sounds good to me, personally. And you still might want to continue boosting Dex beyond that to help cover pre-rage AC and Reflex saves.

This seems like a good array of you aren't planning on taking Raging Intimidation.
I think you can drop it lower if you want to, Dex to 12 for Brestplate. Animal Skin is totally optional now isn't it?

You get that theoretical AC bump from being expert in unarmored before at level 6, but it puts pressure on your stats to have 16 Dex by then. Then, when armor proficiency catches up, you get that +1 bump to the base item bonus.

In the end, you are +2 to AC over armored at levels 6 - 12, and then +1 over at 13+. Even if you start with Dex 12, Animal Skin can be worth it at level 6 but it is costing you a feat.


Ugh, ya I think AOO is just too good (despite only being an animal instinct barbarian who doesn't hit incredibly hard) to give up for Animal Skin. I don't see a place for it, the AC bonus is nice for sure especially for a frontline wrestler, but it would have to replace either AOO at level 6, or Furious Bully at level 8, and I just don't think it's better than either one of those. It may be something I can afford to take at level 10 though certainly.


Atalius wrote:
Ugh, ya I think AOO is just too good (despite only being an animal instinct barbarian who doesn't hit incredibly hard) to give up for Animal Skin...

As a Wrestler, you should be costing enemies actions which I think is, ultimately, better than the AC buff of Animal Skin. So, I wouldn't worry about it too much.


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Atalius wrote:
Ugh, ya I think AOO is just too good (despite only being an animal instinct barbarian who doesn't hit incredibly hard) to give up for Animal Skin. I don't see a place for it, the AC bonus is nice for sure especially for a frontline wrestler, but it would have to replace either AOO at level 6, or Furious Bully at level 8, and I just don't think it's better than either one of those. It may be something I can afford to take at level 10 though certainly.

This is one of my concerns. There are some good alternatives to AoO. Like Embrace the Pain but it is very high level. Cleave could have been but the wording kills it.

I'd really like to see these addressed so that non Fighter Martial characters have a choice of other reactions and don't feel that they need to get AoO all the time.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Ugh, ya I think AOO is just too good (despite only being an animal instinct barbarian who doesn't hit incredibly hard) to give up for Animal Skin. I don't see a place for it, the AC bonus is nice for sure especially for a frontline wrestler, but it would have to replace either AOO at level 6, or Furious Bully at level 8, and I just don't think it's better than either one of those. It may be something I can afford to take at level 10 though certainly.

This is one of my concerns. There are some good alternatives to AoO. Like Embrace the Pain but it is very high level. Cleave could have been but the wording kills it.

I'd really like to see these addressed so that non Fighter Martial characters have a choice of other reactions and don't feel that they need to get AoO all the time.

Yes, you definitely want a reaction that is (fairly) reliable. For my wrestler dragon barbarian, that's Shield Block for now and Embrace in the later levels. I'll definitely regret not having AoO here and there, but at least I'll have something to do off-turn. If you are going Animal Skin and prioritizing AC anyway, grabbing Shield Block is solid.


An update, so I have managed to prone my foes and AOO them in the face on there way up. I am level 6 currently but I find myself rarely using Suplex. When would Suplex be the correct play? Like if I'm fighting below level enemies should I just focus on dealing damage or? Should I grab/trip enemies if they are same level or above? I am a controller for sure, but also deal the most DMG on the party simply because I am a Barbarian. A little help would be greatly appreciated.


I also have a third action which is raising a shield, so I'm not so sure if I should grab Thrash/Whirling Throw because they would be competing with my third action. Raising shield seems to be extremely important for survivability in my experience thus far.


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Atalius wrote:
An update, so I have managed to prone my foes and AOO them in the face on there way up. I am level 6 currently but I find myself rarely using Suplex. When would Suplex be the correct play? Like if I'm fighting below level enemies should I just focus on dealing damage or? Should I grab/trip enemies if they are same level or above? I am a controller for sure, but also deal the most DMG on the party simply because I am a Barbarian. A little help would be greatly appreciated.

IMO for weak opponent when playing with a Barbarian is more effective to just DMG, especially if you have chance to insta-kill them.

Against stronger opponents, after killed the weaklings, you may concentrate in combat maneuvers like trip/grap to remove most opponent defensive/offensive capabilities at same time you diminish it's action economy to prevent the usage of additional moves.

About 3rd action and shield. Yes, shields are important things but they limit your maneuver options due the hand usage requirement (you can still use bucklers). But if you are playing with an animal barbarian yes they are a very interesting option to have to use your 3rd action also maybe interesting too to take shield block but this will cost you AoO sometimes.

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