Intensify Vulnerability- Regalia


Rules Discussion


Quote:
Your regalia implement makes you seem more confident and inspiring with each success. Whenever you successfully Strike the target of your Exploit Vulnerability, choose an ally that you can see. That ally gains a +1 circumstance bonus to its attack rolls against the creature until the beginning of your next turn. If the attack roll was a critical hit, the circumstance bonus increases to +2.

For the longest time I thought that this was simple:

you hit your target, use Intensify, pick an ally, that ally gets +1 to hit the target.

But now that I'm rereading it a bit better... is that really how it works, OR:

you first need to Intensify, then you strike, and on EACH succesful strike you pick a different ally to give that +1?

The second way seems to fit more inline with the actual text, it makes it a gamble (you may spend the action and actually miss on the Strike) but on the other hand if you do 2 strikes, you can buff 2 allies.

... so which one of the two ways does this actually work?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'd say the second. The ability specifically says it triggers on a strike. So you buff X targets where X is the number of successful strikes you make after Intensifying.

Since Intensify lasts until the beginning of your next turn, you can even throw out +1s after an AoO.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

All Intensify Vulnerability effects need you to use the Intensify Vulnerability action first. This is so you can't gain that effect immediately, and must wait at least one round before gaining the intensified effect.

In this case, when you use Intensify Vulnerability instead of gaining extra damage or becoming concealed, you gain the "Whenever you successfully Strike the target of your Exploit Vulnerability" effect.


Cordell Kintner wrote:

All Intensify Vulnerability effects need you to use the Intensify Vulnerability action first. This is so you can't gain that effect immediately, and must wait at least one round before gaining the intensified effect.

In this case, when you use Intensify Vulnerability instead of gaining extra damage or becoming concealed, you gain the "Whenever you successfully Strike the target of your Exploit Vulnerability" effect.

that's not true for amulet,lantern, mirror, tome or weapon as an example (although for weapon and tome it wouldn't make it sense to do it after the attack usually), since that one just needs to have a target under Exploit (from the previous round obviously) you can pretty much do it on any point of the round and get the benefit immediately.

so blanket statements arent really good here.


I think you misunderstood what Cordell said.

In order to gain the benefits of Intensify Vulnerability, you need to use the action Intensify Vulnerabilty. That simple statement applies to all the implements.

For regalia, that means first you Intensify, then you get a benefit when you Strike.


GM OfAnything wrote:

I think you misunderstood what Cordell said.

In order to gain the benefits of Intensify Vulnerability, you need to use the action Intensify Vulnerabilty. That simple statement applies to all the implements.

For regalia, that means first you Intensify, then you get a benefit when you Strike.

That was never in question though, even in my 1st post I said that both ways it would be an action. The question was if it was before the strikes (more gamble but also multiple procs) vs after (no gamble, single proc).

But I don't think that's what he was going for due to the stuff about intensify not doing anything on the round it's used but only on the following round after being used,which is straight up false for half the implements.

(ofc, it could be a case of simply bad translation of one's words when put into writing, or bad understanding from my part^^)

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If you don't use the action you would get none of the effects. You always have to use the action first for every Intensify Vulnerability effect.

And I meant you have to Exploit on round 1 and Intensify on round 2. Intensify is meant to help kill your target if they live to the second round.


Cordell Kintner wrote:

If you don't use the action you would get none of the effects. You always have to use the action first for every Intensify Vulnerability effect.

And I meant you have to Exploit on round 1 and Intensify on round 2. Intensify is meant to help kill your target if they live to the second round.

Then it's just miscommunication, neither of those two (using the action or Intensify being a round 2 thing) where in question.

The question was more about the timing of using said action on the 2nd round, before or after the strikes.

Again, even in my opening post I mentioned that it indeed my second read is that it probably has to be before the strikes (aka a gamble but potentially higher gain) when I initially thought it was after.

But there's no universal rule for Intensify actions (apart from the generic 1 action cost and the target has to be Sensed vuln the previous round), some have conditions (like you have to hit), others don't (just use the action and get a bonus) and just do their thing, hence why I made the post.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

How was my answer not sufficient to your question? You asked when you use Intensify Vulnerability, and I answered before you gain any benefit. If you hit something before using Intensify, that Strike would not have the Intensify Vulnerability benefit, and therefore you would not be able to grant an ally any bonuses. You must use the action first, then hit someone to give the bonus to an ally, as using Intensify modifies how your strikes work. Every Impliment's Intensify Vulnerability must be used before you gain any of the benefits, and the effects last until the start of your next turn.

Amulet: Upon using the action, you gain +2 AC against your Exploit target.
Bell: After using the action, Striking your Exploit target gives them a penalty to Ring Bell Reaction.
Chalice: After using the action, Striking your Exploit target will make Drink from the Chalice better.
Lantern: After using the action, your Lantern benefits get better against your Exploit target.
Mirror: Upon using the action, you become concealed from your Exploit target.
Regalia: After using the action, when you Strike your Exploit target you can grant an Ally +1 to hit your Exploit target.
Tome: Upon using the action, you can save a d20 for future use against your Exploit target.
Wand: After using the action, your do more damage with Fling Magic against your Exploit target.
Weapon: After using the action, your do more damage with Strikes against your Exploit target.

You always have to use the action to maintain these benefits, they are not automatic.


Maybe the quote from the action itself is needed, there it is:

Intensify Vulnerability wrote:
You gain the intensified vulnerability benefit from one of the implements you're holding, which lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

It seems obvious that you don't have the benefit before you gain it.

Intensify Vulnerability


Cordell Kintner wrote:
How was my answer not sufficient to your question? You asked when you use Intensify Vulnerability, and I answered before you gain any benefit.

You've thoroughly misunderstood the question.

The fact that you have to use the action before gaining the benefits was never in question.

What was in question was if this specific benefit needed the strikes to be before or after the action.

You've been stuck on using the action while the question has always been about the outcome of said action.

Read my op again:
I know that to give the +1 you first need to use the action.
The question has been if you need to use it before the strike hits or after the strike hits. (aka about the wording of the benefit, not about the requirements of the action)

Anyways, I'm happy that my conclusion seems to be the correct one as all of you agree with that interpretation.


shroudb wrote:

...What was in question was if this specific benefit needed the strikes to be before or after the action. ...

The question has been if you need to use it before the strike hits or after the strike hits. (aka about the wording of the benefit, not about the requirements of the action) ...

If you haven't done the IV action yet, you don't have the benefit, it doesn't work. At all. You can't do the thing you quoted in the OP. If you Strike, the IV thing doesn't work. All IV benefits work like that.

After you used the IV action you have the benefit which means you can do the thing from your quote in the OP. You can Strike with the IV benefit. At the the beginning of your next turn the benefit ends. To use it again you need to use the IV action again.
So yes, strikes with the benefit go after the action. (They are also another actions or included in other activities, Strikes are not a part of the IV action, you only 'present your implement and esoterica' as a IV action)

Horizon Hunters

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
shroudb wrote:
Cordell Kintner wrote:
How was my answer not sufficient to your question? You asked when you use Intensify Vulnerability, and I answered before you gain any benefit.

You've thoroughly misunderstood the question.

The fact that you have to use the action before gaining the benefits was never in question.

What was in question was if this specific benefit needed the strikes to be before or after the action.

You've been stuck on using the action while the question has always been about the outcome of said action.

Read my op again:
I know that to give the +1 you first need to use the action.
The question has been if you need to use it before the strike hits or after the strike hits. (aka about the wording of the benefit, not about the requirements of the action)

Anyways, I'm happy that my conclusion seems to be the correct one as all of you agree with that interpretation.

If you don't have the Intensify bonus why would Striking before gaining it allow you to give an ally the bonus? The bonus you give is part of the Strike action, not a separate thing. It happens immediately after successfully Striking. Any actions taken before you Intensify are irrelevant. You are the one who seems to be thoroughly misunderstanding how the rules work in this case.


Cordell Kintner wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Cordell Kintner wrote:
How was my answer not sufficient to your question? You asked when you use Intensify Vulnerability, and I answered before you gain any benefit.

You've thoroughly misunderstood the question.

The fact that you have to use the action before gaining the benefits was never in question.

What was in question was if this specific benefit needed the strikes to be before or after the action.

You've been stuck on using the action while the question has always been about the outcome of said action.

Read my op again:
I know that to give the +1 you first need to use the action.
The question has been if you need to use it before the strike hits or after the strike hits. (aka about the wording of the benefit, not about the requirements of the action)

Anyways, I'm happy that my conclusion seems to be the correct one as all of you agree with that interpretation.

If you don't have the Intensify bonus why would Striking before gaining it allow you to give an ally the bonus? The bonus you give is part of the Strike action, not a separate thing. It happens immediately after successfully Striking. Any actions taken before you Intensify are irrelevant. You are the one who seems to be thoroughly misunderstanding how the rules work in this case.

You still don't get it.

To make it as simple as I can, my 1st (wrong) reading was basically:

"if you've hit with a strike, give an ally the +1"
(in this case, you would need to IV after the strike)

My second (correct) reading was that

"when you hit, give the ally +1"
(in this case you have to IV before the strike)

Was just posting to make sure that the second reading was the correct one, which indeed it is.

Did you get it now?


shroudb wrote:

"when you hit, give the ally +1"

(in this case you have to IV before the strike)

Was just posting to make sure that the second reading was the correct one, which indeed it is.

Cordell answered your question.

Cordell wrote:
All Intensify Vulnerability effects need you to use the Intensify Vulnerability action first

You muddled things when you argued against that. And Cordell is right that you can't use the Intensify Vulnerability action on the same turn that you use Exploit Vulnerability.

Intensify Vulnerability wrote:
Requirements You're benefiting from Exploit Vulnerability, you can see the subject, and you haven't used Exploit Vulnerability this round.


GM OfAnything wrote:


You muddled things when you argued against that. And Cordell is right that you can't use the Intensify Vulnerability action on the same turn that you use Exploit Vulnerability.

Intensify Vulnerability wrote:
Requirements You're benefiting from Exploit Vulnerability, you can see the subject, and you haven't used Exploit Vulnerability this round.

never said you could though.

having to wait a round and having to use the action was never in question, which was the majority of cordell's post that i tried initially to clarify that it wasnt what i was asking for.

as i said a couple of posts above, clearly a case of miscommunication since most of the thread got derailed into a non-argument about stuff that were already clear for everyone.

the only thing that i had question about was for the benefit if it would first need to strike or first need to iv, and it was clarified pretty early on.

thanks anyways for everyone that tried to answer either way.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The exact text from the Intensify benefit of Regalia is:

Quote:
Your regalia implement makes you seem more confident and inspiring with each success. Whenever you successfully Strike the target of your Exploit Vulnerability, choose an ally that you can see. That ally gains a +1 circumstance bonus to its attack rolls against the creature until the beginning of your next turn. If the attack roll was a critical hit, the circumstance bonus increases to +2.

If you have not Intensified, any successful strikes will not allow you to use the benefit.

When you Intensify, any actions you took prior to intensifying will not have the benefit.

After you Intensify, you then follow the rules listed in the benefit, which require you to make a successful Strike action.

How is this so hard to understand?

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