I just got done skimming through the Free download rules for the players and couldn’t find anything about an army size for the Warfare part. I am sure I am just missing it but could someone point me in the right direction? Are those stats for 25 units, 50 units, 100 units?
Unlike the 1E rules the number of individuals in an Army has no rules impact, so it's whatever you want it to be.
So your saying that a 1000 Army is equal to a 100 army? Or is it like 10 units of someone's army vs 1 unit of an army?
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It shouldn’t be though in my opinion and this is why:
Having a standing army cost Consumption. And Consumption can cost 5RP. So I am hoping to attribute a Cost for a size so if my players want to have several standing small armies vs one gigantic army I would know how to calculate that.
Because from what I can tell you just have an army that cost generally 1 consumption every month
But if my heroes need multiple armies to fight on two fronts then the Abstract number suddenly becomes an issue. What if there is an approaching Orc army 400 strong coming from the East but there is also a neighboring Kingdom with hostel intentions creeping ever so closer from the West with an army 1000 strong. How long can they hold out with such a large army before consumption becomes an issue? Maybe while this is happening my players are interested in going undercover in said City and sabotage food supplies or create unrest to force recalling the Army back.
I also couldn’t find a cost for RP (I know it’s abstract supplies) but we had a GP cost in P1. So would it be along the lines of 100gp= 1RP?
If that was the case then to build a Castle would cost 54,000gp worth of supplies. Anyone want to help me out here?
My group and I love the Crunch of PF and always have. I think if I can find a GP value for a RP then RPx5 would be the cost for “an army” monthly. From that you can guest the reasonable size based on food/payment
Ideas anyone? Thank you
Creative Director
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The assumption is that every army is about the same size; if you want overwhelmingly huge forces, the way to do that in these rules is to have multiple armies, not one army that's "bigger." These rules aren't meant to be super detailed warfare simulators, but really, just an enhanced victory point rubric that can create a narrative simulation of a mass conflict.
If folks DO want us to do a more detailed take on mass combat, let us know. Who knows what we might do some day if there's enough demand for it?
It shouldn’t be though in my opinion and this is why:
Having a standing army cost Consumption. And Consumption can cost 5RP. So I am hoping to attribute a Cost for a size so if my players want to have several standing small armies vs one gigantic army I would know how to calculate that.Because from what I can tell you just have an army that cost generally 1 consumption every month
But if my heroes need multiple armies to fight on two fronts then the Abstract number suddenly becomes an issue. What if there is an approaching Orc army 400 strong coming from the East but there is also a neighboring Kingdom with hostel intentions creeping ever so closer from the West with an army 1000 strong. How long can they hold out with such a large army before consumption becomes an issue? Maybe while this is happening my players are interested in going undercover in said City and sabotage food supplies or create unrest to force recalling the Army back.
I also couldn’t find a cost for RP (I know it’s abstract supplies) but we had a GP cost in P1. So would it be along the lines of 100gp= 1RP?
If that was the case then to build a Castle would cost 54,000gp worth of supplies. Anyone want to help me out here?My group and I love the Crunch of PF and always have. I think if I can find a GP value for a RP then RPx5 would be the cost for “an army” monthly. From that you can guest the reasonable size based on food/payment
Ideas anyone? Thank you
Per the Settlement Types table, 1 Consumption feeds between 200.5 and 4166.7+ people, depending on Settlement size. Since maximum Settlement size more or less corresponds to the Kingdom's level, a possible tie to Army size would be that any single army's size is related to it's level using Settlement populations divided by their Consumption - level 15+ is functionally unlimited, 9-14 is 500-4165 people, 3-8 is 200-500 people, 1-2 is a max of 200 people.
Alternately, you could take the Infantry sample Army's description of being "a platoon of armored soldiers" literally which puts an Army at (per Wikipedia) between 10 and 100 soldiers, averaging about 50. If you consider the Army rules to include both combat units and non-combat (support/logistics) units in their Consumption cost (which would make sense), then you can basically double that number.
As for converting gp to RP, the Leadership activity "Capital Investment" lets PCs do that, but it's not a fixed ratio - gp required is based off Kingdom level, and additional Resource dice are awarded based off how they do on a Trade check. You could run math and figure something resembling the average RP awarded per gp per level, but there are a fair number of variables involved that are going to be very Kingdom specific.
The assumption is that every army is about the same size; if you want overwhelmingly huge forces, the way to do that in these rules is to have multiple armies, not one army that's "bigger." These rules aren't meant to be super detailed warfare simulators, but really, just an enhanced victory point rubric that can create a narrative simulation of a mass conflict.
If folks DO want us to do a more detailed take on mass combat, let us know. Who knows what we might do some day if there's enough demand for it?
Thank you very much for the response. I know that I would personally love to see an optional Crunch on mass combat. I would love to support it either through another Paizo Ultimate Campaign book, Kickstarter, or a third party project.
I currently have two campaigns (had to convert to 2E) that will be using these rules (WoTR and S&S) so the timing couldn’t have been better.
It shouldn’t be though in my opinion and this is why:
Having a standing army cost Consumption. And Consumption can cost 5RP. So I am hoping to attribute a Cost for a size so if my players want to have several standing small armies vs one gigantic army I would know how to calculate that.Because from what I can tell you just have an army that cost generally 1 consumption every month
But if my heroes need multiple armies to fight on two fronts then the Abstract number suddenly becomes an issue. What if there is an approaching Orc army 400 strong coming from the East but there is also a neighboring Kingdom with hostel intentions creeping ever so closer from the West with an army 1000 strong. How long can they hold out with such a large army before consumption becomes an issue? Maybe while this is happening my players are interested in going undercover in said City and sabotage food supplies or create unrest to force recalling the Army back.
I also couldn’t find a cost for RP (I know it’s abstract supplies) but we had a GP cost in P1. So would it be along the lines of 100gp= 1RP?
If that was the case then to build a Castle would cost 54,000gp worth of supplies. Anyone want to help me out here?My group and I love the Crunch of PF and always have. I think if I can find a GP value for a RP then RPx5 would be the cost for “an army” monthly. From that you can guest the reasonable size based on food/payment
Ideas anyone? Thank you
Per the Settlement Types table, 1 Consumption feeds between 200.5 and 4166.7+ people, depending on Settlement size. Since maximum Settlement size more or less corresponds to the Kingdom's level, a possible tie to Army size would be that any single army's size is related to it's level using Settlement populations divided by their Consumption - level 15+ is functionally unlimited, 9-14 is 500-4165 people, 3-8 is 200-500 people, 1-2 is a max of 200 people.
Alternately, you could take the Infantry sample Army's description of being "a platoon...
I really appreciate the time you have taken to help me in this. I think with those numbers I will be settling on 100 size=1 consumption
And if it cost 5 RP for one consumption and 1RP is roughly 100gp then that would provide your soldier with a “Comfortable” living. Which I think would be in line with the old idea of Low income people joining the army to financially better their lives.
Any thought to help enhance this thought exercise?
Any thought to help enhance this thought exercise?
My personal thought on it is that a decent rough size for the total number of people involved in an army is about 200 per Consumption.
An Infantry or Skirmisher Army is roughly 100 combatants in the field and roughly 100 support staff that are spread between being with the army (cooks, blacksmiths, medical, MPs, etc.) and various places throughout the Kingdom (headquarters staff, messengers, logistics personnel, etc.).A Calvary Army has the same 100 combatants with the higher Consumption coming from to the need to feed/manage their mounts and the corresponding increase in support personnel (around 200 support staff total).
A Siege Engine Army is around a dozen siege engines of various types and their crews (about 50 people) and around 120 support staff, with the remainder of the Consumption going to the fact that siege engines are just overall more expensive to create, use, and maintain than Infantry.
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The assumption is that every army is about the same size; if you want overwhelmingly huge forces, the way to do that in these rules is to have multiple armies, not one army that's "bigger." These rules aren't meant to be super detailed warfare simulators, but really, just an enhanced victory point rubric that can create a narrative simulation of a mass conflict.
If folks DO want us to do a more detailed take on mass combat, let us know. Who knows what we might do some day if there's enough demand for it?
I want to use kingdom building rules in homebrew campaign I'm planning and since I'm planning to give pcs level cap, having more detailed warfare rules would be nice since that could be one way to replace small adventurer focus in that campaign :D That said I kinda want to see further expansion in kingdom building rules because its cool and because I'm sure it can be further improved after it has seen play in kingmaker 2e (honestly though I'm mostly just curios of how desert and arctic terrains interact with kingdom rules x'D Maybe some more magical terrains or things like volcanoes as well)