Is there any mid / low-level counterplay to getting harassed by Dream Message / Nightmare / Sending / etc.?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Words have power and there's no save or "willing" clause for the messages; it doesn't seem like the sender's identity needs to be known, either. They all have planetary range and some fairly lax requirements for targeting, which is good if you have good intentions (referring to the messages) and kind of bad if you don't.

Nondetection doesn't help; earliest counter I can find in the spells category is Spell Immunity, which is 4th Lv (to DM's 3rd, N's 4th, and S's 5th). Not too bad, but I'm wondering if there's anything more specific and accessible. Restful Sleep Fulus help with Nightmare a bit, and Psychic Warding Bracelets give the same bonus for cheaper, but they do stack. Still, those are consumables to give mild wards against a spell with no particular cost that can be cast anonymously from halfway across the planet, and there's no save for the message spells at all. What am I missing here?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Not sure there is an easy method to shut this off. Also not sure it would ever come up in a game. While theoretically the Golarion equivalent of dox happy 4chan trolls probably exists, this sort of harassment strikes me as X card material for a lot of folks. Including those themes doesn't strike me as fun.

Liberty's Edge

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Sending is like talking.

Nightmare has a will save.

Dream message is more problematic but it is a 3rd level spell with no mechanical impact = food for stories IMO.


Animus Mine?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Alfa/Polaris wrote:

Words have power and there's no save or "willing" clause for the messages; it doesn't seem like the sender's identity needs to be known, either. They all have planetary range and some fairly lax requirements for targeting, which is good if you have good intentions (referring to the messages) and kind of bad if you don't.

Nondetection doesn't help; earliest counter I can find in the spells category is Spell Immunity, which is 4th Lv (to DM's 3rd, N's 4th, and S's 5th). Not too bad, but I'm wondering if there's anything more specific and accessible. Restful Sleep Fulus help with Nightmare a bit, and Psychic Warding Bracelets give the same bonus for cheaper, but they do stack. Still, those are consumables to give mild wards against a spell with no particular cost that can be cast anonymously from halfway across the planet, and there's no save for the message spells at all. What am I missing here?

Mechanically, I don’t know that there is an answer, but narratively, I think the answer is Desna. Messing with peoples dreams without consent or cause has to be asking for her wrath.

As a GM, harassment is a theme you should think twice about using as it can be very triggering to people who might not have even thought to bring it up as an off limits topic in session 0, nor should they have been expected to. This kinda came up in our run through of EC, and it led to a very awkward session, even for a group that seemed theoretically comfortable with it. I would not advise GMs to run towards the theme of Harassment for their campaigns and to spend as little time “in scene” with it as possible.

If it is a player doing it, I recommend GMs bring the hammer down with Desna pretty quickly.


Guntermench wrote:
Animus Mine?

Pain might be a deterrent, but it only lasts an hour. All of the opposing spells have enormous durations, so they can essentially be cast whenever.

Captain Morgan wrote:
Not sure there is an easy method to shut this off. Also not sure it would ever come up in a game. While theoretically the Golarion equivalent of dox happy 4chan trolls probably exists, this sort of harassment strikes me as X card material for a lot of folks. Including those themes doesn't strike me as fun.

No, and in most cases it won't and shouldn't come up. I'm asking in a general sense, I suppose, and also for really atypical table configurations. A mid-level spellcaster doesn't need a coordinated campaign to really upset someone's life with spells they can cast for free every day, but these stood out to me since the range, duration and requirements are so relatively lax.

Unicore wrote:

Mechanically, I don’t know that there is an answer, but narratively, I think the answer is Desna. Messing with peoples dreams without consent or cause has to be asking for her wrath.

As a GM, harassment is a theme you should think twice about using as it can be very triggering to people who might not have even thought to bring it up as an off limits topic in session 0, nor should they have been expected to. This kinda came up in our run through of EC, and it led to a very awkward session, even for a group that seemed theoretically comfortable with it. I would not advise GMs to run towards the theme of Harassment for their campaigns and to spend as little time “in scene” with it as possible.

If it is a player doing it, I recommend GMs bring the hammer down with Desna pretty quickly.

I was vaguely thinking about that too. It may seem extreme, but this is the sort of thing curses and boons are made for, and deus ex machina fits when there's nothing more for mortals to do. Nightmare at least has defenses you can put up, and that helps with Dream Message in an indirect way — I guess Spell Immunity is at least a lower spell level than Sending, too. Still, I wonder.


At 3rd level there is also Mind of Menace. It lasts 24 hours. But it doesn't deal any damage.


Can you use reactions while you're asleep?


Well, a persnickety rules lawyer could argue that you can't use reactions when not in encounter mode since you don't gain a reaction to spend until the start of your turn. But that wouldn't be any fun.

For an even looser but even more fun option, if the recipient of these dream message and sending spells doesn't want to be a willing recipient, have the connection start a Psychic Duel.

Probably wouldn't work for Nightmare since that one allows a save already.


I was thinking more the "You’re sleeping, or you’ve been knocked out. You can’t act." bit. Which means no, you can't use that reaction against something like Dream Message or Nightmare.


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Alfa/Polaris wrote:

Words have power and there's no save or "willing" clause for the messages; it doesn't seem like the sender's identity needs to be known, either. They all have planetary range and some fairly lax requirements for targeting, which is good if you have good intentions (referring to the messages) and kind of bad if you don't.

Nondetection doesn't help; earliest counter I can find in the spells category is Spell Immunity, which is 4th Lv (to DM's 3rd, N's 4th, and S's 5th). Not too bad, but I'm wondering if there's anything more specific and accessible. Restful Sleep Fulus help with Nightmare a bit, and Psychic Warding Bracelets give the same bonus for cheaper, but they do stack. Still, those are consumables to give mild wards against a spell with no particular cost that can be cast anonymously from halfway across the planet, and there's no save for the message spells at all. What am I missing here?

That's the kind of things that should be covered by magic items. Paizo hasn't covered all the kinds of magic items (because that would be a lot of page count for nearly no use) but it is quite common to use charms for good sleep and things like that. I'd personally make the victim buy such an item to stop the harassment. Especially for spells like Dream Message and Sending that are not intended to harm, countering them should be easy.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I thought of Mind of Menace but the reaction also requires you to see the creature in question.

Alfa/Polaris wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Animus Mine?

Pain might be a deterrent, but it only lasts an hour. All of the opposing spells have enormous durations, so they can essentially be cast whenever.

Captain Morgan wrote:
Not sure there is an easy method to shut this off. Also not sure it would ever come up in a game. While theoretically the Golarion equivalent of dox happy 4chan trolls probably exists, this sort of harassment strikes me as X card material for a lot of folks. Including those themes doesn't strike me as fun.

No, and in most cases it won't and shouldn't come up. I'm asking in a general sense, I suppose, and also for really atypical table configurations. A mid-level spellcaster doesn't need a coordinated campaign to really upset someone's life with spells they can cast for free every day, but these stood out to me since the range, duration and requirements are so relatively lax.

Unicore wrote:

Mechanically, I don’t know that there is an answer, but narratively, I think the answer is Desna. Messing with peoples dreams without consent or cause has to be asking for her wrath.

As a GM, harassment is a theme you should think twice about using as it can be very triggering to people who might not have even thought to bring it up as an off limits topic in session 0, nor should they have been expected to. This kinda came up in our run through of EC, and it led to a very awkward session, even for a group that seemed theoretically comfortable with it. I would not advise GMs to run towards the theme of Harassment for their campaigns and to spend as little time “in scene” with it as possible.

If it is a player doing it, I recommend GMs bring the hammer down with Desna pretty quickly.

I was vaguely thinking about that too. It may seem extreme, but this is the sort of thing curses and boons are made for, and deus ex machina fits when there's nothing more for mortals to do. Nightmare at least has defenses you can put up, and that helps with Dream Message in an indirect way — I...

Well, I think the answer is that it is pretty hard to stop, much like being doxxed in real life. A harassing caster would be limiting themselves to keep doing it by expending their spell slots everyday, but let's face it, there are folks with nothing better to do.

Seems rife for a homebrew item or spell though. A "Do not Call" mini-mind blank.


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Aggressive advertising on Golarion would be like having npc with message wandering from town to town and harassing people in a similar way:

"Hey, are you happy with your current deity? New followers of XXXXXX gets an extra lvl 2 spell slot and +1 circ damage on all damaging spells for 24 sessions!"

"Tired of keep missing your attacks? The last time you scored a critical hit was for your birthday? Leave your old class and Join the fighter academy! With awesome weapon proficiency you'll be having +10% extra hit, critical hit and fun!"


HumbleGamer wrote:

Aggressive advertising on Golarion would be like having npc with message wandering from town to town and harassing people in a similar way:

"Hey, are you happy with your current deity? New followers of XXXXXX gets an extra lvl 2 spell slot and +1 circ damage on all damaging spells for 24 sessions!"

"Tired of keep missing your attacks? The last time you scored a critical hit was for your birthday? Leave your old class and Join the fighter academy! With awesome weapon proficiency you'll be having +10% extra hit, critical hit and fun!"

GM: You're walking through the woods and suddenly you receive a sending spell. The message is: "we have been trying to reach you about your carriage's extended warran-ty."

Player: shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut


This sounds like a great adventure hook. An NPC the party has befriended ask them to find the person who is spamming sending and causing all kinds of trouble. Of course if the party tries this same trick on the BBEG it turns out the BBEG used a secret ritual/ made a pact with an outsider (demon, devil, night hag etc.) to not only become immune, but to also cause mental damage to the caster/ give the caster's exact location to said outsider.
If you're the GM you could have a ritual be commonly known (an invocation to Desna perhaps) to prevent "hostile" use of these spells.


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If extradimensional spaces can cut you off still, then Rope Trick should work to stop it (at least while you sleep).

If you worship Desna you could port over the Swallowtail Bracers from Wrath of Righteous. That item not only gives you immunity from nightmare, but it also bounces the spell back to the caster.

Anything that gives protection against illusions and mental effects would also work.

Could port the Dream Shield spell.
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Sending has very few ways to be stopped and it mostly involve general anti-magic stuff or being in a place where it won't reach. The good thing is that it requires you are familiar with the target, so you can only get annoyed by friends and family.


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Nightmare requires that the caster know the person by name. If the caster isn't actually in contact, then changing your name could break the connection.


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Temperans wrote:
The good thing is that it requires you are familiar with the target, so you can only get annoyed by friends and family.

... and personal enemies, of course.


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Starfinder Superscriber
Quote:

If it is a player doing it, I recommend GMs bring the hammer down with Desna pretty quickly.

No. If a player is behaving in a way that the group has already resolved as a group "that's not the kind of story we want to participate in", it needs to be resolved by speaking to the player.

Having gods come down and banhammer someone, while funny and appropriate from an in-game perspective, will teach the offending player that the behavior while sanctionable in-game is still appropriate in-game if they're willing to deal with the consequences and that they're not jeopardizing their opportunity to participate by engaging in them.

Doing otherwise sends the message that while you don't agree with Player Y's behavior and neither do the powers that be in-game, you are powerless as a GM to permanently stop them and Player X who is bothered by it should just get over it (or worse, retaliate in-game and participate in PvP)

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