I'm playing a Rune Witch in Strength of Thousands, which gives a free archetype for wizard or druid among other bonus feats. At 6th level I was prepared to take basic wizard spell casting... But I recently managed to wrap my head around the Halcyon Speaker archetype. It seems like the perfect choice for one of my teammates* and has some appeal to give me spontaneous primal options using my arcane proficiency. But the spell level progression is even slower than regular multiclass archetypes.
Most primal spell strength lies in heightened, top level slots: blasting, healing, summoning, and battle forms. By contrast the arcane list has low level options which scale plenty well with level: True Strike, Command, Illusory Object, Befuddle, and Illusory Creature all more or less work just as well at level 20 as level 1.
So I'm wondering if there are any primal spells not on the arcane list that justify delaying the slot progression for Halcyon Speaker. If not, the only advantage to going Halcyon over regular wizard multiclass is the spontaneous casting. Can anyone help me come up with some spells?
*The teammate is a pacifist anadi nymph bloodline sorcerer who multiclassed into druid to double up on their primal proficiency, but realized the primal list is really bad for the sort of tricksy playstyle they were hoping for. Halcyon Speaker lets them get those low level illusions I referenced and cast them using their primal proficiency. It is a pretty perfect fit. If anyone has tips for how to lean into this concept more, I'm all ears. They planned to take Crossblooded at 8th level but haven't picked their poached spell yet. I'm thinking there must be something higher level on the occult list that fills a gap.
Edit: I should also mention the GM approved using the free archetype for Halcyon Speaker as it is thematically appropriate, and my witch class feats are in high demand, so I probably won't take multiple casting archetypes.
Lose the Path, Grease, Fear(1), Gust of Wind all still work fine at higher levels.
Mud Pit, Swamp Call, Protector Tree can be useful
Then there are a few utility spells and buffs. Longstrider and Pest Form.
None of there are quite as strong as True Strike but they are still quite useful.
Lose the Path, Grease, Fear(1), Gust of Wind all still work fine at higher levels.
Mud Pit, Swamp Call, Protector Tree can be useful
Then there are a few utility spells and buffs. Longstrider and Pest Form.
None of there are quite as strong as True Strike but they are still quite useful.
Most of those are also on the arcane list, though, so I could use them through the wizard multiclass feats at a faster rate than Halcyon Speaker allows for. I don't know that Lose the Path or Protector Tree are worth having less slots to be filled with the other things you listed. At least not in a party where everyone else is a druid.
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Generally speaking, the only value the magaambyan attendant and halcyon speaker archetypes have for an arcane caster is through cascade casting at level 10. Once you have that feat, you can cast occult and divine spells from your halcyon slots.
Generally speaking, the only value the magaambyan attendant and halcyon speaker archetypes have for an arcane caster is through cascade casting at level 10. Once you have that feat, you can cast occult and divine spells from your halcyon slots.
And since I didn't join the Cascade Bearers for my branch, that won't do me any good. Looks like standard wizard casting it is!
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But the spell level progression is even slower than regular multiclass archetypes.
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For those who like visual representations, here are my comparisons of various archetype spellcasting progressions.
Actually, on further reflection, I could use the Halcyon Speaker to round out archetype feat slots between wizard casting feats. I'm not sure if the wizard class feats appeal enough to say no to extra slots.
Most of those are also on the arcane list, though, so I could use them through the wizard multiclass feats at a faster rate than Halcyon Speaker allows for. I don't know that Lose the Path or Protector Tree are worth having less slots to be filled with the other things you listed. At least not in a party where everyone else is a druid.Lose the Path, Grease, Fear(1), Gust of Wind all still work fine at higher levels.
Mud Pit, Swamp Call, Protector Tree can be useful
Then there are a few utility spells and buffs. Longstrider and Pest Form.
None of there are quite as strong as True Strike but they are still quite useful.
That is the nature of the arcane list. It is the largest list by far.
You can't expect that low level slots are going to be your go to spell when you get to higher level. You have high level spells for that. The nature of the game shifts for spell casters. Your slot capacity is no longer your key limit, actions are. In that situation you look at what you can get with limited action cost and it changes which spells you want in your lower level slots. So for the Primal list you are looking at:* longer terms buffs - pass without trace, longstrider
* reaction or single action spells - lose the path, air burst, air bubble-assuming GM lets it work, featherfall
Then you can look at :
* out of combat utility - summon anything (1), protector tree, alarm, pest form
* lesser control, defense or debuff options for non critical rounds because they are probably better than cantrips - fear(1), grease, gust of wind, mud pit
Actually, on further reflection, I could use the Halcyon Speaker to round out archetype feat slots between wizard casting feats. I'm not sure if the wizard class feats appeal enough to say no to extra slots.
Wizard have some reasonable feats, but none of them are really great. Maybe Scroll Savant(10) and Effortless Concentration(16) are it before level 18. Some of the rest are useful, they just aren't required. There is heaps of room for multiclassing as a Wizard. Likewise for Fighters and Clerics.
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The new(ish) Table View on Archives of Nethys is really helpful for this sort of thing - unlike the searches, I can't link the filters I've created easily, but for this I made a table with all 3rd level and under primal spells that do not appear on the arcane list, are not cantrips, and are not focus spells. It's not a huge list, but not small either - probably about ~70 spells. As you say, many of them are not hugely helpful when cast at low level slots - the ones that are seemingly helpful are also normally out-of-combat utility. I know that does decrease their usefulness for you in a party of druids - but I figured while making the list, I might as well put in most of the ones I thought helpful in case someone else had the same question. Aside from ones Gortle has mentioned, these are the ones that jumped out to me:
1st level:
- Pass Without Trace - situational, but a nice boost in the appropriate situation. YMMV as to how often it comes up.
- Purify Food and Drink - basically the same as Pass Without Trace; situational, but useful when it appears.
- Detect Poison (uncommon) - a nice divination that doesn't have any chance of failure
- Swampcall (uncommon) - a 10ft burst of difficult terrain is useful enough in some situations, but a Ref save or they become slowed down + flat-footed is very nice in many situations, and it'll continue to be useful in a 1st level slot. 3rd level version of it is a 20ft burst, which might be helpful too. It is from the same AP you're playing though - I've not read it, so I don't know if it's something that may come up in the plot, or if it's just backmatter material.
2nd level:
- Animal Messenger - just a nice utility spell, really
- Breath of Drought (uncommon) - a 10ft burst fort save that causes sickened on a failure is quite a nice source of debuffing. it's Sustained, so takes some actions, but it continues to occupy that space and anyone ending their turn makes the save again, so a little crowd control thrown in too.
- Entangle - there is a save here, but it's a big area. My experience is that throwing this sort of magic at the start of a battle with a bunch of melee-focused enemies can help seperate them, allowing for some better focus fire.
- Faerie Fire - no save or check required, and it goes a long way to countering invisibility, which is nice.
- Restoration - doesn't counteract, so allows you to use low level slots to patch up afflictions and debuffs.
- Speak with Animals - offers a new route to gain information that many antagonists might not have anticipated
3rd level:
- Life Connection - if you find you're not getting targeted often, it could be nice to cast this at the end of the previous day, and have a way to use your HP that aren't being hit to protect someone on the front lines.
- Soothing Blossom - helpful support spell for persistent damage, poisons, and diseases that scales up perfectly with level
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Arcadian: thanks! That's exactly what I needed.
Most of those are also on the arcane list, though, so I could use them through the wizard multiclass feats at a faster rate than Halcyon Speaker allows for. I don't know that Lose the Path or Protector Tree are worth having less slots to be filled with the other things you listed. At least not in a party where everyone else is a druid.Lose the Path, Grease, Fear(1), Gust of Wind all still work fine at higher levels.
Mud Pit, Swamp Call, Protector Tree can be useful
Then there are a few utility spells and buffs. Longstrider and Pest Form.
None of there are quite as strong as True Strike but they are still quite useful.
That is the nature of the arcane list. It is the largest list by far.
You can't expect that low level slots are going to be your go to spell when you get to higher level.
Dude, I know how spell slot level works. The point of the thread is to find primal only spells which are still good despite that. Stop naming spells from the arcane list.
The new(ish) Table View on Archives of Nethys is really helpful for this sort of thing - unlike the searches, I can't link the filters I've created easily, but for this I made a table with all 3rd level and under primal spells that do not appear on the arcane list, are not cantrips, and are not focus spells. It's not a huge list, but not small either - probably about ~70 spells. As you say, many of them are not hugely helpful when cast at low level slots - the ones that are seemingly helpful are also normally out-of-combat utility. I know that does decrease their usefulness for you in a party of druids - but I figured while making the list, I might as well put in most of the ones I thought helpful in case someone else had the same question. Aside from ones Gortle has mentioned, these are the ones that jumped out to me:
1st level:
- Pass Without Trace - situational, but a nice boost in the appropriate situation. YMMV as to how often it comes up.
- Purify Food and Drink - basically the same as Pass Without Trace; situational, but useful when it appears.
- Detect Poison (uncommon) - a nice divination that doesn't have any chance of failure
- Swampcall (uncommon) - a 10ft burst of difficult terrain is useful enough in some situations, but a Ref save or they become slowed down + flat-footed is very nice in many situations, and it'll continue to be useful in a 1st level slot. 3rd level version of it is a 20ft burst, which might be helpful too. It is from the same AP you're playing though - I've not read it, so I don't know if it's something that may come up in the plot, or if it's just backmatter material.
2nd level:
- Animal Messenger - just a nice utility spell, really
- Breath of Drought (uncommon) - a 10ft burst fort save that causes sickened on a failure is quite a nice source of debuffing. it's Sustained, so takes some actions, but it continues to occupy that space and anyone ending...
Also need to consider the Guidance cantrip.
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Arcadian: thanks! That's exactly what I needed.
No worries! I realised I could get a similar table up using the search function, so if you want to look through the full list, this should be an appropriate table for it :)
Thank you Arcaian and also Dot.
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But the spell level progression is even slower than regular multiclass archetypes.
...For those who like visual representations, here are my comparisons of various archetype spellcasting progressions.
Interesting, I need to take a deeper look at the captivator, that's a very swift progression.