First Takes on the 2e Kingmaker AP


Kingmaker


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I haven't read through it all (the AP alone is 600+ pages) but from what I've seen I think I can come to some tentative conclusions.

1. The book is overall well done. It seems to follow the computer game fairly closely, which could be a plus or minus. There's a lot of content in there, so I feel confident any GM can mix and match material and still have plenty.

2. The map is problematic. The map is simply a reprint of the original AP map, hidden away in the back of the AP. The map is still not oriented with north and I don't think that they ever resolved the Stolen Lands / Brevoy / Iobaria map conflicts. On the plus side, I like how the Stolen Lands are divided into 20 sections - one for each level - with level appropriate wandering encounters for each.

3. Mivon appears to be completely ignored again (likely because it was more or less ignored in the CRPG). Again, this is a huge wasted opportunity IMHO.

4. There appears to be no Gazetteer at all in the product. I understand that we could use the 10+ year old materials from PF1, (I mean, we could have used the 1e AP in its entirety), but one major point was to flesh out those parts of the original that 10+ years of feedback had laid the groundwork for.

My honest appraisal at this point is that while the AP is well presented and organized, it falls short of the original intent of these hardback second endeavors, which is to not only present the material in a compilation, but also to expand and fill in those portions which were lacking in the original work. Instead, the new material seems to be taken almost exclusively from the CRPG. Where the CRPG filled in the missing parts well, these additions are welcome. But considering the promises throughout the dev cycle, the repeated missed dates for completion and the simple fact that this edition was less about new content and more about converting existing content (namely stat blocks, etc), the end result has to be disappointing to some degree.


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What promises made throughout the dev cycle were not met?

It seems like a couple of the things you are disappointed about aren't necessarily things that are universally considered as problems. Yes, a lot of people thought it was odd that the top of the map didn't point north, but I wouldn't say that was universal. I think that if they reoriented the map to face north, it would be weird to have a diagonal map on the pages of the AP.

Also, a lot of people wanted to interact more with Mivon, but I think it was just to be able to flesh out more of the world. I saw that far more people wanted more interaction with Brevoy (and we got a bit of that in the new AP), but I feel like the devs really want the focus to be on the new kingdom and threats to the new kingdom. Adding a political element is probably out of scope.

Anyway, I also haven't read all of it, so I may be missing some context of what's in the 2E version that's driving some of your comments. But they are saying that they've added content to the AP that wasn't in the CRPG, so there's that.

I did skim through the new version of the kingdom building rules, and that looks more compact, which could be a plus. Still, I can't ever really get a good feel about rules systems without playing them; just reading them isn't enough.

I agree that the pages look great, and I can't wait to get my physical copy.


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(Warning: I haven't really dived into the PDFs yet, but I did skim a few of them.)

My main interest is if there is enough material to be able to run an improved/revised Kingmaker AP in the PF1 system. (Particularly as I missed the chance to buy the original KM books in their hardcopy versions.)

The Bestiary for PF1 seems to cover most of the PF1 game mechanics for this update: monsters, NPCs, traps/hazards, and companions.

My main concern right now is how to convert skills, treasure, and the kingdom management system.

I'm really not familiar with PF2's skill system at all, so that's a question mark for me.

Regarding the advice on awarding treasure for a PF1 game, it appears to be a matter of "look it up in the original PF1 PDFs". But how well will that scale with the added content and potentially higher-levelled characters? Apparently the PCs can end up at character level 20+ if all the encounters are used.

And, as stated above, I haven't had a chance to see how well the Kingdom Management system converts from PF2 to PF1.


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Bellona wrote:

(Warning: I haven't really dived into the PDFs yet, but I did skim a few of them.)

Regarding the advice on awarding treasure for a PF1 game, it appears to be a matter of "look it up in the original PF1 PDFs". But how well will that scale with the added content and potentially higher-levelled characters? Apparently the PCs can end up at character level 20+ if all the encounters are used.

And, as stated above, I haven't had a chance to see how well the Kingdom Management system converts from PF2 to PF1.

Yeah, you're on your own for PF1 treasure. The skill system is a lot more compact in PF2 - there's fewer skills and the numbers don't go as high. There may be a conversion somewhere put out when PF2 came out, but I'd look at skill #s from the PF1 book as a guide and adjust by +/-5. Or, you can do what I do - listen to how the PCs decide to solve a problem and if it's good, a decent roll indicates success and a bad roll indicates failure.

One thing that stood out for me was the traps. I just glanced through the bestiary and I don't think I saw traps in them. So you may be on your own for those.

And yeah, a lot more encounters.


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Andostre wrote:


Anyway, I also haven't read all of it, so I may be missing some context of what's in the 2E version that's driving some of your comments. But they are saying that they've added content to the AP that wasn't in the CRPG, so there's that.

I did skim through the new version of the kingdom building rules, and that looks more compact, which could be a plus. Still, I can't ever really get a good feel about rules systems without playing them; just reading them isn't enough.

I agree that the pages look great, and I can't wait to get my physical copy.

Yeah, I'm a little wary of the new kingdom building rules. I've already decided to ditch the army rules for a homebrew of the old AD&D Battlesystem rules. I'm kinda shocked how easily those could be ported over.

I'm not sure what they did add that wasn't in the CRPG (which I haven't finished tbh - on the equivalent of Book 5). What I am seeing is this weird mix of stuff nearly verbatim lifted from the original AP, maps, images and all and stuff that seems to be lifted straight from the CRPG. I find it a little janky at times, but that may be me.

I am looking forward to the books, and I am looking forward to GMming this. We're doing an in-person campaign and kick off in ten days. I've been through KM as a player so I'm fine just with the updated stat blocks. But whereas the 1e KM was almost not enough info and the GM filled in the cracks, this one seems a pile of too much material and the GM will need to weed out bunches of stuff.

We'll see how it plays. That's the thing.


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Zi Mishkal wrote:
Andostre wrote:


Anyway, I also haven't read all of it, so I may be missing some context of what's in the 2E version that's driving some of your comments. But they are saying that they've added content to the AP that wasn't in the CRPG, so there's that.

I did skim through the new version of the kingdom building rules, and that looks more compact, which could be a plus. Still, I can't ever really get a good feel about rules systems without playing them; just reading them isn't enough.

I agree that the pages look great, and I can't wait to get my physical copy.

Yeah, I'm a little wary of the new kingdom building rules. I've already decided to ditch the army rules for a homebrew of the old AD&D Battlesystem rules. I'm kinda shocked how easily those could be ported over.

I'm not sure what they did add that wasn't in the CRPG (which I haven't finished tbh - on the equivalent of Book 5). What I am seeing is this weird mix of stuff nearly verbatim lifted from the original AP, maps, images and all and stuff that seems to be lifted straight from the CRPG. I find it a little janky at times, but that may be me.

I am looking forward to the books, and I am looking forward to GMming this. We're doing an in-person campaign and kick off in ten days. I've been through KM as a player so I'm fine just with the updated stat blocks. But whereas the 1e KM was almost not enough info and the GM filled in the cracks, this one seems a pile of too much material and the GM will need to weed out bunches of stuff.

We'll see how it plays. That's the thing.

Yeah, I agree. There seems to be a ton of info and I’m not even sure where to start. What are you doing for maps at the table?


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Zi Mishkal wrote:


One thing that stood out for me was the traps. I just glanced through the bestiary and I don't think I saw traps in them. So you may be on your own for those.

And yeah, a lot more encounters.

Chapter 3 of the Bestiary is titled "Hazards and Traps" and claims to contain all of the hazards and traps from the AP and the Companion Guide.

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I don't really agree with hot takes here since they seem off to me based on me having played both original 1e and and crpg and reading through this, there are lot of small tweaks but overall it really prioritizes original 1e ap over crpg.

Like, overall I would say its vast improvement over original just like Rise and Crimson were. There are few things that indeed would have been nice to have (like map expanded to show full stolen lands area and borders of neighbors or extra diplomacy options with other nations), but that is honestly out of scope of adventure. The area is already fricking massive and getting to international politics of all neighbors would be pretty tough, especially since 2e is already a thing and this ap kinda takes place in past so Brevoy's problems being solved pre 2e would be weird. This isn't really Brevoy ap and because original 1e didn't touch on them too bad, this means 2e remake really CAN'T assume its taken care of. Basically because 1e kingmaker ignored Brevoy and Mivon, I don't think 2e kingmaker can anymore incorporate them in greater manner at this point(because then it would be retroactively adding new lore to 2e timeline), though granted it would have been nice if there was extra minor events added at least.(I do wish original kingmaker had had international shenanigans with more nations than just Pitax)

New kingdom rules seem interesting enough to me considering they seem to follow 2e math it should be alright balance wise, but again it is hard to tell without testing out whether your kingdom's "build" can be a trap or such. Either way they are pretty independent from player rules so you could use them in 1e or in 5e if you wanted and they have lot of options 1e didn't such as actually sending diplomatic envoys and peacefully incorporating various NPC settlements in the area mechanically :'D

(that is my favorite addition, there are actually rules for incorporating all various small communities into your kingdom rather than just GM telling you that "nah sorry book doesn't give you anything for wanting to add bog striders". Even boggards can be recruited with right maneuvering! Plus there are even army rules for all various locals for recruiting them :D)

Other interesting observation is that in 2e paizo has been overally more chaste than in 1e(like not even about just art style, I've noticed change in language regarding npc allies. Like last "this character could also potentially become love interest" one we had was very handsome half orc in Tyrant's Grasp. Though to be fair, that might be also because 2e doesn't assume npcs could become "cohorts" that follow PCs because NPCs don't follow pc rules anymore, would affect balance way more and are weirder to level up in 2e), but in case of this AP it really works out for better because they replaced at least 4 silly looking cheesecake art for more appropriate art. Ilora Nuski actually looks badass now instead of weirdly drunk!

But yeah there are lot of small adjustments to various scenes made and lot of minor encounters, but I want to talk about big four entire adventures, or rather three of them that are CRPG adaptations.(Candlemere dungeon seems fun though)

Long analysis of new stuff:

The new intro is fairly similar to CRPG yeah, but there are lot of small tweaks to make it work better in this context, such as Tartuccio not actually acting under Pitax's orders, he is instead essentially acting on his own in hopes of gaining Irovetti's favor, this as result makes it much less obvious that Pitax is going to be major antagonist this early on. Black Tears(the assasins) also have more personality than I remember CRPG counterparts having, but I digress.

Season of Bloom is actually quite different because this ap still doesn't introduce Nyrissa before book six*, so as result this time it IS actually Lamasthu cult creating the bloom and helping it spread. Goblins are also actually innocent regarding trying to spread it around :D

*ap instead just adds more foreshadowing and tweaks moments so that players have opportunities to learn more of foreshadowing. Like with Hargulka, in original ap he is presented as just dungeon boss you never really get to talk with, in this AP you can diplomacy check audience with him and get chance to talk to him so you can actually get hints about his dreams(which if they had learned about from Stag Lord or later lamashtan cultists is pretty clear hint of wonky things happening :D. Nyrissa is still hidden mystery villain in this AP, but foreshadowing is more gradual and natural rather than her just being completely invisible to PCs.

Curse of Lantern King is also fairly different on the details. Weird shadow copies are now actual new plant fey creature type called Fetch. The location is a demiplane players are pulled into rather than first world fusing with their kingdom. Lantern King manifests an avatar to fight you(because his real power level is apparently level 29, Eldest are in 26-30 category it seems), as results you really can't kill him either which was always bit wonky (okay in crpg you can't really do it either without really specific plot shenanigans on a secret route, but it also presents you somehow actually fighting the demigod at level 20 to stand still :'D) But overall structure is similar.

Sidenote one new fun segment that is added is expanding concept of infiltrating city pre sieging it to be "So instead of siege, you can convince various factions of Pitax to side with you and liberate city from Irovetti's control" which is probably crpg inspired concept wise, but also might not be because its probably to accommodate parties not wanting to do siege war :D Either way this section doesn't really have anything to lifted from CRPG, its just same concept but actual things are different.

There is lot more things to note on fun changes and additions, I do have my own criticism though, but I don't really have lot of stuff. I admit that I might be too hyped to find stuff I usually nitpick on, but I really think there is only one major problem with the book.

(companion guide also has lot of changes from crpgs, like lot of things are changed to fit lore better and to work better in trpg but I think that is sidetracking from the ap itself a bit.)

So my main criticism is this: Information organization for plot details doesn't exist here,(I'd argue its actually worse than in 1e ap ^^;) It took me ages to figure out correct key word to find the info and I in the end found it by just "CTLR F Nyrissa" until I found clarification on it in the final chapter.

What thing that was btw?:
Well while ap clearly prefers 1e incarnation of kingmaker as primary source, it did take inspiration from Nyrissa's apology cup from CRPG. In 1e, Nyrissa had apparently been doing not much for thousands of years besides searching for Briar and being generally mad until she got inspiration to bottle a kingdom to give it as tribute to Eldest. In CRPG she was tasked to destroy thousand kingdoms and each one would create speck of dust in the cup. Here they actually combined two, she is actually ABSORBING THOUSAND KINGDOMS into the cup. Its noted if she wins that effect is same as in 1e, it leaves desert behind the area absorbed.

SO TO CLARIFY this isn't actually a plot hole. Its clarified that agent of Lantern King always moves Briar to new world after Nyrissa has failed to find it and has absorbed the previous target kingdom. However since this AP doesn't have detailed campaign summary page, I had to comb entire book until I found the single page that clarified this x'D But before I found that page I was really confused "So wait, what 999 kingdoms she absorbed" until I finally found out what was the truth.

Its actually interesting detail change, original Nyrissa failed to find Briar in same location for thousands of years until she got sudden idea about the bottle plan in her madness, she had nothing to do with Stolen Lands besides that. CRPG went with "she is behind failed kingdoms and destroying kingdoms is exact purpose". My personal homebrew change would have been "Nyrissa is reason behind all failed stolen lands kingoms, she destroyed them all in frustration because she thought they weren't good enough tributes, until one day she thought "What if I help to create a best tribute kingdom" and then have AP happen with her manipulating events to challenge her pet kingdom to be more glorious until she thought it was worthy to bottle.

The ap change actually makes original 1e plot work better: Nyrissa didn't find briar because its location is kept changing. She doesn't have thousands of years of legends in stolen lands because she isn't involved there. She is essentially Brainiac or multiversal conquer that always moves to new world to pluck a kingdom until collection is finished. Its actually really elegant solution to keep original story structure intact(aka Nyrissa has only become recently active because she has only recent decades started her plans) while changing only little bits of it and ends up making Nyrissa more threatening as a villain because her scope is larger now.

I really wish that Apology cup related stuff would have been explained on single page. Like even Nyrissa's character page doesn't spell it out she is doing world hopping :'D Just that she is stealing thousand nations. I initially was like "wait, if she is stealing them on Golarion how come on nobody is noticing kingdoms vanishing and turning into deserts?" until I went through almost 300 ctrl f Nyrissas until I got answer on this.

But yeah, I'm really happy with 2e version :3 I hope kingdom rules work well in practice


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Snake0202 wrote:


Yeah, I agree. There seems to be a ton of info and I’m not even sure where to start. What are you doing for maps at the table?

For maps I bought a chessex battlemat and some dry erase markers. I'm going to use the hell out of that. I've got some artistic skill, so I'm not worried about that. Minis (pre-painted and unpainted) I've been collecting for the past decade, so I'm good there.

The kingdom map I'm using is this one that I made back before this project was announced. I have an 11x17 print out of it as a GM aid and I went to my local office copy place (Office Depot in my case) and made a 24x36ish map which they also laminated. That cost me like $40- back in 2018. But the hexes are 1" / square. I plan on hiding the unexplored hexes with round stick on labels.

Other maps I will draw as needed. There is a rumor that Kingmaker will be out for Foundry VTT and I can't recommend that VTT enough.

Lastly, I plan on making the PC stronghold out of foamboard once the party decides on a floorplan. Or maybe LEGOs. hehe. As GM I try to keep my party's interest with a fair amount of 'wow' (and also good GM Skills).


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CorvusMask wrote:
Other interesting observation is that in 2e paizo has been overally more chaste than in 1e(like not even about just art style, I've noticed change in language regarding npc allies. Like last "this character could also potentially become love interest" one we had was very handsome half orc in Tyrant's Grasp.

Okay, the above made me go to the PDF and look up any changes made for Lily Teskertin, because I had felt a little skeevy when telling my players that her reward includes "a kiss (or perhaps a bit more)."

And yes, the 2E version removes any flirty aspects from this NPC, which I appreciate. And she's also now a capital-L "Lady" for some reason.

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Andostre wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Other interesting observation is that in 2e paizo has been overally more chaste than in 1e(like not even about just art style, I've noticed change in language regarding npc allies. Like last "this character could also potentially become love interest" one we had was very handsome half orc in Tyrant's Grasp.

Okay, the above made me go to the PDF and look up any changes made for Lily Teskertin, because I had felt a little skeevy when telling my players that her reward includes "a kiss (or perhaps a bit more)."

And yes, the 2E version removes any flirty aspects from this NPC, which I appreciate. And she's also now a capital-L "Lady" for some reason.

Yup, honestly I had forgotten that Kingmaker had lot of cheesecake art :'D I noticed Lily change here, but I didn't actually count her among the four art I mentioned because her art was just a mugshot anyway.

Anyway, I don't actually mind flirty characters in itself(like Shayliss from rise of the runelord wasn't bad because she was sexually open, it was because she was written as 1) weird kind of wish fulfillment 2) kind of cliche as she is set up for her father walking in 3) and kinda looked down upon for having "reputation"), but I think there is big difference between flirty and being presented like horny eye candy like Lily was. It also does overall make more sense to leave PC/NPC romances completely up to tables and GM and these things are really subjective, but I think it can be done well and (in another ap) certain winter wolf aggressively flirting with you on first meeting was certainly weird memorable experience that lead to interesting roleplaying stuff :'D


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My first take has been generally positive. I like the new chapter zero starting off with an influence game as its main thing. Should help a lot with merging some normal session 0 with session 1 content more seamlessly and let people flesh out their character's personality right away. I haven't read the rest of chapter 0 to tell how it plays out. I like the milestone leveling/planning to reach level 2 sooner compared to the 1e version (and more like the CRPG) since that makes some of the swingiest level 1 problems/wilderness exploration a great deal better.

I'd probably have preferred a slightly different set of companions getting the fully fleshed out treatment; hope we see some fan conversions/adaptions of the CRPG arcs for those who only got the 2-page treatment. I wish Valerie's had been more completely redone from scratch, since while the change from the crpg helps a little, I think its still fairly awkward/bad presentation.

The new kingdom stuff feels improved at least on the stats/creation end. Need to read the kingdom turn based stuff more closely/review the buildings/etc to tell if I think i will play better -- 1e version felt fun to read and theory craft, but typically didn't play well at the table. And as that part of the rules didn't superficially change much, I'm not too hopeful, but its possible subtle changes really improve it.

Kinda feel the same way with lots of the new downtime/kingdom options and the exploration/camping actions -- they feel interesting, but will they be optimized away into an unvarying routine?

Some of the organization is feeling a little off and lots of flipping back and forth between different parts of the book. Makes me wish for a Beadle & Grimms treatment -- normally I HATE their single hardcover -> multiple-softcover approach, but I think for Kingmaker I'd prefer a separate book for the maps/regions/exploration/kingdom/army rules, split out from the AP, since often you want both open at once.

Still I'm very excited, starting up as GM in early October with a group. Hoping my hardcover arrives soon so I can really dive into it. And I expect I'll need to do a fair bit of my own Foundry prep, at least for a couple of months before the official premium offering is out.


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Could some kind soul please post a URL for this new product? I am not able to find this new product on Paizo's website, using their Search function...

Thanks,
Franklin

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Its not available for purchase yet(I think they were waiting for all crowdfund participants to get their physical books shipped at least)

Sidenote, realized that there is technically one 1e content missing but not x'D Aka the song of silver bonus npcs for old aps. But that was to be expected tbh as none of them were part of ap originally and were written afterwards as bonus ones you can add if you want to.


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The PDFs and hardcopy books will be made available to non-backers on October 26.


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They've created a new discussion sub-forum for Kingmaker2E.


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NielsenE wrote:
Some of the organization is feeling a little off and lots of flipping back and forth between different parts of the book. Makes me wish for a Beadle & Grimms treatment -- normally I HATE their single hardcover -> multiple-softcover approach, but I think for Kingmaker I'd prefer a separate book for the maps/regions/exploration/kingdom/army rules, split out from the AP, since often you want both open at once.

The pdf download for the main book has a "chapter per file" option that helps a bit with this. It's not super helpful when it comes to things like the full Kingdom Building rules that require lots of jumping around inside the same "chapter" though.


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Andostre wrote:
They've created a new discussion sub-forum for Kingmaker2E.

Perhaps some mod can shift this thread over to there?


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Andostre wrote:
The PDFs and hardcopy books will be made available to non-backers on October 26.

Thank you. ;-)


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Do the rules on kingdom building have "backwards compatibility" with the first edition rules (in "Ult. Campaign")? Did they just revise them for compatibility with second edition? Or did they rebuild them completely from scratch?

Thanks,
Franklin


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Andostre wrote:

They've created a new discussion sub-forum for Kingmaker2E.

Zi Mishkal wrote:


Perhaps some mod can shift this thread over to there?

On the other hand, it's nice to have a thread dedicated to the revised KM's "PF1 version" (changes/additions, bestiary, stats, etc.) here in the original KM sub-forum. (Similar to how both the RotR and CotCT sub-forums deal with both the 3.5 and revised PF1 versions.)

I know that when I get around to actually running KM, it will be with the revised story-line (and revised stats, etc.) in the PF1 system.


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FWCain wrote:

Do the rules on kingdom building have "backwards compatibility" with the first edition rules (in "Ult. Campaign")? Did they just revise them for compatibility with second edition? Or did they rebuild them completely from scratch?

Thanks,
Franklin

Completely revised, much more streamlined. But also very different.

I would say it is a lot more manageable for the majority of groups though. I did originally create a relatively advanced spreadsheet (lovingly improved, updated and maintained by others - in particular Chemlak) but even if with that it the 1st edition was very involved to use…..


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In further review it is streamlined - more consistent. But not really easy still …… probably still needs a spreadsheet for settlements…… more consistent with PF2 rules though.


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Berhagen wrote:
Completely revised, much more streamlined. But also very different.

Have they published any conversion guides, to transfer kingdom write-ups from 1st edition over to 2nd? Or have they mentioned any intentions of doing so?

Also, for their new rules on kingdom building -- Did they provide useful write-ups for the various other "kingdoms" the PCs will interact with (i.e.: Varnhold, Fort Drelev, and Pitax) using these new game mechanics?

Thanks,
Franklin


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FWCain wrote:
Berhagen wrote:
Completely revised, much more streamlined. But also very different.
Have they published any conversion guides, to transfer kingdom write-ups from 1st edition over to 2nd? Or have they mentioned any intentions of doing so?

I think there was some fan discussion of that over in the 2E Kingmaker forum. But Paizo isn't going to put out any more products for PF1E, probably ever, because it would be a competitor to PF2E.


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Berhagen wrote:
FWCain wrote:

Do the rules on kingdom building have "backwards compatibility" with the first edition rules (in "Ult. Campaign")? Did they just revise them for compatibility with second edition? Or did they rebuild them completely from scratch?

Thanks,
Franklin

Completely revised, much more streamlined. But also very different.

I would say it is a lot more manageable for the majority of groups though. I did originally create a relatively advanced spreadsheet (lovingly improved, updated and maintained by others - in particular Chemlak) but even if with that it the 1st edition was very involved to use…..

Is the spreadsheet still available somewhere online? My searching has failed me this time.


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Andostre wrote:
I think there was some fan discussion of that over in the 2E Kingmaker forum.

Fooey.

Andostre wrote:
But Paizo isn't going to put out any more products for PF1E, probably ever, because it would be a competitor to PF2E.

I must respectfully disagree. A guide on how to convert from the old (1e) to the new (2e) would be an *asset* (not a "competitor"). Paizo should want to find as many ways as possible to wean/seduce their player base away from the older version to the newer version, from a purely fiscal point-of-view.

But this pedant is a trivial point, if Paizo isn't making any such conversion guide...

Thanks, any way. ;-)
Franklin


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Swiftbrook wrote:
Berhagen wrote:
FWCain wrote:

Do the rules on kingdom building have "backwards compatibility" with the first edition rules (in "Ult. Campaign")? Did they just revise them for compatibility with second edition? Or did they rebuild them completely from scratch?

Thanks,
Franklin

Completely revised, much more streamlined. But also very different.

I would say it is a lot more manageable for the majority of groups though. I did originally create a relatively advanced spreadsheet (lovingly improved, updated and maintained by others - in particular Chemlak) but even if with that it the 1st edition was very involved to use…..

Is the spreadsheet still available somewhere online? My searching has failed me this time.

It is found on these forums in the “community” section.


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Berhagen wrote:
Swiftbrook wrote:
Berhagen wrote:
FWCain wrote:

Do the rules on kingdom building have "backwards compatibility" with the first edition rules (in "Ult. Campaign")? Did they just revise them for compatibility with second edition? Or did they rebuild them completely from scratch?

Thanks,
Franklin

Completely revised, much more streamlined. But also very different.

I would say it is a lot more manageable for the majority of groups though. I did originally create a relatively advanced spreadsheet (lovingly improved, updated and maintained by others - in particular Chemlak) but even if with that it the 1st edition was very involved to use…..

Is the spreadsheet still available somewhere online? My searching has failed me this time.
It is found on these forums in the “community” section.

I think that this is the most recent discussion thread about the sheet. There are links in the first post, and the file itself probably has a page talking about versioning (so you can see if the latest version came out relatively recently), but if I'm wrong about those links, you can ask in the thread itself.


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As someone who got it hoping finally to have a paper copy to use to play PF1 (since the PF1 6-chapters have been out of print for forever; and because I liked the idea of all the added side quests and 7th chapter)... It does not meet that goal. The PF1 conversion guide is basically just monster/trap/NPC stat blocks. There are only 4 pages (minus 1.25 pages for images/renamed monsters chart -- so 2.75 pages of text) in the PF1 book that isn't statblocks.


  • -There's NOTHING on converting skill checks and DCs.
  • -Treasure is a paragraph that says, basically, "do it yourself".
  • -Even the statblocks have a disclaimer that says "YMMV, we are only giving a brief try".

Sadly, I have to give this an F at being a useful PF1 product. I'd have to spend way more time doing a conversion than I'd like to. Which is made all the worse because the majority of it had already existed as PF1 content!

Sure, I have access now to the PDFs of the PF1 chapters... but I run from paper. If I were happy with the unpleasant experience of reading and running an AP from PDFs, I wouldn't have bothered with this in the first place. The whole point of buying was for having books.

I guess I'll try to find a place to print the PDFs and start on a massive conversion project? Or maybe convince my players to do another AP instead of the one we all want to do. I guess at least I was able to get pawns and maps?


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It gets even worse. I've been randomly comparing PF1 original to PF2+Bestiary and there are whole monster changes, like the one big memorable monster, the Zomok. The 2e version replaces it with a Sard -- which doesn't exist at all in the PF1 Bestiary. If there's one thing missing, there's probably more.

Edit: I guess it's in the PF1 Bestiary 2. So anything that's in any of the bestiaries appear to be omitted. Carbuncle was in the original Stolen Lands bestiary chapter, but was reprinted in B3, so omitted from the Kingmaker 2e PF1 Bestiary. Still weird they changed one of the key monsters that was kind of "highlighted in the art" and very memorable ("it's a plant dragon!") with something else

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I mean, they changed monster because dungeon zomok was in is now level 19 instead of like 17 as it was in 1e. Sard is also a Tane, just like Bandersnatch, Jubjub Bird and Jabberwock are, so its still thematic monster for adventure.

Anyway, they were pretty clear from start that 1e and 5e bestiaries were just that, bestiaries of the new statblocks (or for statblocks that didn't exist in 5e, thats why we now have zomok in 5e too). Kingdom rules don't really need conversation, you can use original ap treasure for most parts and honestly as I said elsewhere, SKill DCs with some glitches do actually match up between editions. (40 is level 20 dc in 2e, 1e dcs usually go int he range of 10-40. DC for climbing really hard to climb wall in both editions is actually the same :'D )


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CorvusMask wrote:
Anyway, they were pretty clear from start that 1e and 5e bestiaries were just that, bestiaries of the new statblocks (or for statblocks that didn't exist in 5e, thats why we now have zomok in 5e too). Kingdom rules don't really need conversation, you can use original ap treasure for most parts and honestly as I said elsewhere, SKill DCs with some glitches do actually match up between editions. (40 is level 20 dc in 2e, 1e dcs usually go int he range of 10-40. DC for climbing really hard to climb wall in both editions is actually the same :'D )

Nah, I'm not buying it. I spot checked some DCs between the two and the values were pretty different, and I've seen plenty of discussion that PF2 DCs tend to go much higher.

As for "just use 1e treasure", did you miss the part where the new version has hundreds of new pages of content, including an entirely new chapter, which spreads out some of the existing content to higher levels, too? There's no 1e to look at for these.

As for "it was just going to be a bestiary":

Quote:
Play along in the new and updated encounters with this helpful conversion guide featuring back-converted stats for the entire Kingmaker campaign, plus other rules conversions, tips and tricks to run the campaign smoothly.

There's technically "tips and tricks", but there's the bare minimum. "other rules conversions" is just the traps/hazards (which are just statblocks too). I can also point out that the 5e conversion book is 45 pages longer than the PF1. They could have gone for page parity and fully supported their own game!

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Yeah 1e treasure doesn't help with everything, but it should cover most of the material that is same in both books and help giving direction. But yeah I admit missed the "tips and tricks" part in the product promise thing.

I mean, thing with 1e is that pcs can succeed at dc 40 way before level 10. And the lot of example 1e skill dc charts are valid in 2e skill examples as well(main thing that is different are dcs based on HD or charisma stats in 1e), main thing they probably change are that lot of 1e ap dcs are like 20-25 even when players have +10 skill ranks. So heightening them even in 1e is probably valid unless you want everyone in party to have chance to succeed.


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This is a walkthrough of the CG and it was based off the 1ed rules so treasure is 1ed appropriate. This.

EtG


Unfortunatly Gamebanshee hasn't done a detailed walkthrough of Kingmaker, if they did I would have had that one linked. Gamebashee do some really good walkthroughs including a rough idea of the random treasures that could be found.

EtG


The new bestiary blocks also omit the ever-so-useful "Tactics" section, except occasionally to mention pre-buffs.

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Isn't that usually better though to do whatever gm wants to do with foes? Like lot of as written tactics tend to low ball heavily in 1e by doing things like "casting multiple buffs after combat has already started"

(that said I can see that being annoying if you do like using the as written tactics to give guidance on which feats or spells to focus on primarily from statblock yeah since there is lot to sparse in 1e statblocks)


No, not at all. Following the tactics blocks gives good flavor and structure to the adventures for how they're suggested to play out for the adventure path. The tactics blocks give the entities personality, even if they were to have the same stat block. It's not about optimization or "always trying to win".

The PF2 module does give tactics there (it's not labeled or separated; it's just paragraphs in the particular room), but they're obviously not all going to be applicable. I haven't checked for morale yet (which is really important in modules 4-5).

The big boss fights in chapter 5 are a good example of where the tactics blocks are necessary. The new one doesn't even seem to note if some of his pre-buffs are included or not in the statblock, or his "always uses arcane strike" is included. So I'll have to verify all the math, defeating the purpose of the bestiary conversion...


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emky wrote:
Sadly, I have to give this an F at being a useful PF1 product. I'd have to spend way more time doing a conversion than I'd like to. Which is made all the worse because the majority of it had already existed as PF1 content!

It was never advertised as anything else than a bestiary, certainly not a full conversion guide. That is probably why it's called the "Kingmaker Bestiary - first Edition".

If you expected it to be a full conversion guide, you haven't been paying attention or have let your wishful thinking blind you to the actual announced product description.


Paizo/Game On Tabletop wrote:

Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition (Add-On)

Does your group prefer to stick with First Edition? We’ve got you covered with the hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition, a 160-page monster and NPC resource that converts the new companions, NPCs, and monsters unlocked by this campaign into old-school Pathfinder First Edition. Play along in the new and updated encounters with this helpful conversion guide featuring back-converted stats for the entire Kingmaker campaign, plus other rules conversions, tips and tricks to run the campaign smoothly. This add-on book is your ticket to playing Kingmaker in classic style.

Game On Tabletop Kingmaker link

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I think the tactics with personality for foes are rarer than the ones that are kinda meh though, though admittedly its harder to build personality into 1e statblocks themselves so that is better way to showcase that.


Looking to buy the Adventure Path from someone if has a copy from the Kickstarter I can purchase!


Topagae wrote:
Looking to buy the Adventure Path from someone if has a copy from the Kickstarter I can purchase!

Paizo is taking preorders for the official release late October. https://paizo.com/store/pathfinder/adventures/adventurePath/kingmakerap


Swiftbrook wrote:
Paizo/Game On Tabletop wrote:

Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition (Add-On)

Does your group prefer to stick with First Edition? We’ve got you covered with the hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition, a 160-page monster and NPC resource that converts the new companions, NPCs, and monsters unlocked by this campaign into old-school Pathfinder First Edition. Play along in the new and updated encounters with this helpful conversion guide featuring back-converted stats for the entire Kingmaker campaign, plus other rules conversions, tips and tricks to run the campaign smoothly. This add-on book is your ticket to playing Kingmaker in classic style.

Game On Tabletop Kingmaker link

(added bolding) Exactly. It indicated more than bestiary. And what's there is "technically" more than just bestiary, but a single paragraph per topic isn't helpful.


emky wrote:

...

It indicated more than bestiary. And what's there is "technically" more than just bestiary, but a single paragraph per topic isn't helpful.

+1


Zi Mishkal wrote:

I haven't read through it all (the AP alone is 600+ pages) but from what I've seen I think I can come to some tentative conclusions.

1. The book is overall well done. It seems to follow the computer game fairly closely, which could be a plus or minus. There's a lot of content in there, so I feel confident any GM can mix and match material and still have plenty.

2. The map is problematic. The map is simply a reprint of the original AP map, hidden away in the back of the AP. The map is still not oriented with north and I don't think that they ever resolved the Stolen Lands / Brevoy / Iobaria map conflicts. On the plus side, I like how the Stolen Lands are divided into 20 sections - one for each level - with level appropriate wandering encounters for each.

3. Mivon appears to be completely ignored again (likely because it was more or less ignored in the CRPG). Again, this is a huge wasted opportunity IMHO.

4. There appears to be no Gazetteer at all in the product. I understand that we could use the 10+ year old materials from PF1, (I mean, we could have used the 1e AP in its entirety), but one major point was to flesh out those parts of the original that 10+ years of feedback had laid the groundwork for.

My honest appraisal at this point is that while the AP is well presented and organized, it falls short of the original intent of these hardback second endeavors, which is to not only present the material in a compilation, but also to expand and fill in those portions which were lacking in the original work. Instead, the new material seems to be taken almost exclusively from the CRPG. Where the CRPG filled in the missing parts well, these additions are welcome. But considering the promises throughout the dev cycle, the repeated missed dates for completion and the simple fact that this edition was less about new content and more about converting existing content (namely stat blocks, etc), the end result has to be disappointing to some degree.

I've gone and got a different map, and done a bit of work on what is beyond the borders (to keep it straight in my mind). Depending on how far the pcs roam, Brevoy may be really important, and so good maps are necessary. Brunderton, for instance, may matter to players running Dwarves. If you want to expand the east a bit and add threats there you will need to sort your maps out.

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