About the persistant mutagen

Rules Questions


I'm looking to use two archetypes of alchemist at the same time : construct rider and preservationist
The restriction from my GM is "you can use multiple archetypes but they must not replace the same thing"
The construct ridder replace the mutagen and say that you can never gain the mutagen or cognatogen ability, even from a discovery or another class.
The preservationist replace the persistant mutagen.

I'm wondering if those two archetype can combine.
You may say "the persistant mutagen has no interest by himself"
I'll answer "you can still use the mutagen of another alchemist in your party and benefit from the persistant mutagen considering the prerequisite to gain the effect is to be an alchemist, not having the mutagen class-feature"

Thank you :)

Liberty's Edge

FAQ wrote:

Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?

In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
posted June 2015

Persistent mutagen is a subfeature of the mutagen.

Without the mutagen ability, you can't benefit from another alchemist's mutagen, as you lack the mutagen ability, i. e. the part of your class that says what happen when you take the mutagen.

ok so the two archetype are not compatible because persistant mutagen is a subpart of the mutagen feature, which is required to benefit from the mutagen even though the text says you just need to be alchemist, right ?

Liberty's Edge


The Exchange

With the caveat that the rules on archetype stacking are a little grey, no matter how hard we try to make them absolute:

Persistent Mutagen is NOT a subfeature of mutagen. It is a unique feature, and those archetypes should stack.

Basically: if it's got its own boldface heading in the class writeup, it's a feature. If it's got an italicized heading (or no heading) it's a subfeature. A subfeature of the alchemist would be "4th-level discovery" (subfeature of discovery) or "increase to bomb damage at 5th level" (subfeature of bomb).

Yes, it is true that construct rider gets absolutely no benefit from the persistent mutagen class feature. But he still has it.

The Exchange

Patafoin wrote:
I'll answer "you can still use the mutagen of another alchemist in your party and benefit from the persistant mutagen considering the prerequisite to gain the effect is to be an alchemist, not having the mutagen class-feature"

I can see reading that in a vacuum, but it's not true as a whole. The wording is

Mutagen class feature wrote:
A non-alchemist who drinks a mutagen must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour—a non-alchemist can never gain the benefit of a mutagen, but an alchemist can gain the effects of another alchemist’s mutagen if he drinks it.

It's the same language as any other class feature (oracle's revelation, monk's flurry of blows, etc.). If you gave up the class feature, you don't have the class feature and therefore don't gain any of the advantages contained in it. Like the ability to drink another alchemist's mutagen.

It's also worth noting that when the text of the mutagen feature was published (Advanced Class Guide) it was impossible to be an alchemist without the mutagen class feature. (No alchemist archetypes.) But the more important point is that it's standard language for what you get from the class feature.

Great ! ^^
Thanks for the responses

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