Thaumaturge questions


Rules Discussion


So we were discussing whether or not you can pick one-handed weapons with the two handed trait as an implement. Like Bastard sword or Katana. It seems that you can.

Handedness in PF2 is determined by the number of hands being used to wield the weapon. So if you're using a jezail in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon and you can't use any options that require you to be using a firearm one-handed until you're back to wielding it in one hand. If you use a dagger in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities that require a two-handed weapon, as laid out on pages 279-280 of the CRB. When determining the handedness of a weapon, the two questions are just "What's the minimum number of hands required to wield this" and "How many hands am I currently using to wield it?"
So you would either get the thaumaturge class benefits by wielding the sword one handed or get the two-handed sword benefit by wielding it two-handed but not both.

Implement's empowerment.
The power of your implement can also be turned to the more common task of combat, its power adding to and amplifying the effects of runes and other magical
empowerments. When you Strike, you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you’re holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per
weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don’t gain the benefit of implement’s empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.

So you can have two one handed weapons out, one being your implement and one being a regular one handed weapon and still get the benefits? Alternatively, if I have two one handed weapons and I attack with my non-implement weapon, I can still get the benefit of exploit vulnerability and implements empowerment with the weapon that isn't my implement, right? Mostly I want to have a gun as my implement, but attack with my melee weapon. The trick works with multiple enemies. I get into melee with enemy number 1 and enemy 2 is to the right/left/up/down from number 1 is now 10 feet from me. When He takes his turn and tries to flank me or get into position, I now shoot one handed my gun, most likely slide pistol.


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DoubleGold wrote:
So you would either get the thaumaturge class benefits by wielding the sword one handed or get the two-handed sword benefit by wielding it two-handed but not both.

That is pretty much how I am seeing it too. And for the same reasons.

Choosing the Bastard Sword as a weapon implement is valid since it is a 1-handed weapon in its default state. And as long as you use it 1-handed, then it continues to be a 1-handed weapon and is still valid.

Once you use it 2-handed, it stops being a 1-handed weapon and is no longer valid as a weapon implement. So I would probably run that as that the abilities that it gets from being an implement are suppressed - just like if the weapon had runes that were incompatible with a 2-handed weapon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You don't really gain anything by using the two-handed trait on the bastard sword anyway, as a thaumaturge. Going from 1d8 to 1d12 adds 2 damage per weapon die on average. You would lose Implement's Empowerment, though, which costs 2 damage per die, so it's basically a wash, on average.


The only weapon you'd be potentially gaining on is the Jezail as it gains the fatal aim d12 trait, but you're really gambling cause you turn your d8s into d12s and gain an extra d12 for the fatal 2 handed thing if you crit.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It would be interesting to see the math breakdown, but I suspect that losing 2 damage per die on every hit is not worth it just to boost your crits, though I suppose that might change if you have a way to get true strike or something.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Another Thaumaturge question: do you get the Implement's Empowerment bonus damage on unarmed strikes?

Implement's Empowerment wrote:
The power of your implement can also be turned to the more common task of combat, its power adding to and amplifying the effects of runes and other magical empowerments. When you Strike, you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you're holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.

The Strike action includes unarmed strikes. However, unarmed strikes are not weapons, so do you have any "weapon damage dice" to boost on an unarmed strike?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Weapon damage die is just a generic term used to describe the mechanic.

Handwraps of mighty blows, for instance, specifically references the weapon damage die of the attacks they modify.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think the way handwraps are written is a good indicator that you're right. If that's the case, though, I have to say that it's a frustrating choice for the generic term to use, given that elsewhere the designers went to great lengths to explicitly say that unarmed strikes are not weapons.

Dark Archive

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Dennis Muldoon wrote:
I think the way handwraps are written is a good indicator that you're right. If that's the case, though, I have to say that it's a frustrating choice for the generic term to use, given that elsewhere the designers went to great lengths to explicitly say that unarmed strikes are not weapons.

It is a confusing area at times.

The number of people I've talked to who think you also gain the additional damage on any dice added from the Deadly trait is way too high as well.

A bit of extra caution needed to be taken with the language here.

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