Things that might be a bit overtuned.


Kineticist Class

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So! there has been a lot of discussion of the current version of the classes failings, as well as things that people are happy with as is, So I thought I might start a topic for things that might be a bit too good, either in comparison to other things offered at the same level, or just maybe a bit too good for the game in general.

The first thing that comes to mind for me is Rock Rampart. A free wall of stone whenever i want it? With no overflow or action cost? I feel like this might provide a little too much battlefield control in enclosed spaces where you can just indefinitely segment an encounter into effortless chunks.

The other one is chain blast. Now don't get me wrong, chain blast is really cool but it sits in a kind of troublesome spot for damage. As is chain blast, when active is a very rewarding situational 3 action feat. The problem is its also the best way to use your blasts for damage, by a large margin. if you expect even a small amount of your combats to leave have chain blast online you should take it because its just that explosive. and being this good with the blasts as mediocre as they are right now means that any improvements to the base blasts that are not distinct actions of their own could easily push chain blast's output into utterly busted


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Hahaha, what?

Air kineticists get to spend 3 actions+overflow+sustain (seriously wtf) for a half size Wall of Wind, the weakest of walls, while earth gets 2 actions, not overflow, for Wall of Stone? (yes yes, also sustained, but at two actions not overflow you can just blast>wall to block off the enemies after... then repeat. God that seems so abusable with some tactical delays on your party. ...I want to way buff Celestial Palisade but you're right, that seems broken)


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As much as I am loathe to admit it, chain blast might be too good.


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Dubious Scholar wrote:

Hahaha, what?

Air kineticists get to spend 3 actions+overflow+sustain (seriously wtf) for a half size Wall of Wind, the weakest of walls, while earth gets 2 actions, not overflow, for Wall of Stone? (yes yes, also sustained, but at two actions not overflow you can just blast>wall to block off the enemies after... then repeat. God that seems so abusable with some tactical delays on your party. ...I want to way buff Celestial Palisade but you're right, that seems broken)

Celestial palisade is never going to compete with wings of air, which is probably the most overturned impulse of them all ( but I hope we don’t lose it, it is so much fun!). It feels like air took a hit on their wall spell because nothing will trump flying…but awkwardly, palisade is much better for a character that always will be flying. It makes beating them in the air pretty challenging… but the first level aura does a pretty good job of keeping things away anyway.


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Wings of Air is really good. That said, they already gave the Sprite ancestry a pretty silly amount of flight ability at 9 anyways (with bonus 4th level invisibility as an innate spell... every. hour. at 13)

I don't think it's too good though. Rangers can already get a fly speed via focus spell at level 7, Sorcerers can at 6, etc.

For sustained effects, an impulse is basically exactly the same as a focus spell since you throw it out at the start of a fight and move on (well, not quite the same, but the gap is much less)


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Is chain blast too good? Or is it right where the kineticist spending two actions blasting should be?

I feel like it is, and barrage blast is there too for a level 4 ability. The problem is damaging save impulses need stoke element to even possibly keep up and they need that damage to consistently apply to them, not get confused in how they apply to only one instance of damage.

I don’t think the kineticist with chain blast is generally over powered though


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The chance to miss on the first Chain Blast and entirely waste two actions that you precommitted is not that low. I’m not sure it’s good enough for a feat investment given the frequency of situations you’d want it (4-5 enemies within your first range increment but not within a reasonable substitution overflow AOE).


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I hope chain blast goes if only bc peppering damage on multiple enemies that fails when one hit doesn't land is less appealing than that page space being used for a modest aoe that applies to all kineticist.


Xenocrat wrote:
The chance to miss on the first Chain Blast and entirely waste two actions that you precommitted is not that low. I’m not sure it’s good enough for a feat investment given the frequency of situations you’d want it (4-5 enemies within your first range increment but not within a reasonable substitution overflow AOE).

Yeah I've been wondering about this whenever i hear people talking about how amazing it is. Hitting 5 people with your full blast damage sounds great, but one miss and you feel like you wasted 1/2 extra actions. Off hand i don't think any 'make multiple attacks at full MAP' are dependent on the previous ones hitting, even if they lose some bonus effects. If you've got good luck and some hero points its godly, if your luck sucks its probably feels terrible to have 'wasted' your entire turn on it. I'm sure there is room for a 'high' risk/reward ability so idk about replacing it, but I don't feel its broken or anything(having not yet used it myself of course).


Dead Phoenix wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
The chance to miss on the first Chain Blast and entirely waste two actions that you precommitted is not that low. I’m not sure it’s good enough for a feat investment given the frequency of situations you’d want it (4-5 enemies within your first range increment but not within a reasonable substitution overflow AOE).
Yeah I've been wondering about this whenever i hear people talking about how amazing it is. Hitting 5 people with your full blast damage sounds great, but one miss and you feel like you wasted 1/2 extra actions. Off hand i don't think any 'make multiple attacks at full MAP' are dependent on the previous ones hitting, even if they lose some bonus effects. If you've got good luck and some hero points its godly, if your luck sucks its probably feels terrible to have 'wasted' your entire turn on it. I'm sure there is room for a 'high' risk/reward ability so idk about replacing it, but I don't feel its broken or anything(having not yet used it myself of course).

Similar abilities would be swipe, penetrating shot and stab and blast. Not exactly the same mechanics but if you miss on your roll, the actions are wasted


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I sure hope chain blast sticks around. My current issue with it is that it's essentially a better AOE than your other overflow options. That could be alleviated by simply buffing overflows and chain blast might fit in a little more neatly. I don't know, what's better?; up to 5 attacks on some mooks with the chance of ending on a miss, or a reasonably scaled at will AOE on 5 mooks. Chain blast also has the benefit of not hitting your allies, unless you really want to.


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aobst128 wrote:
I sure hope chain blast sticks around. My current issue with it is that it's essentially a better AOE than your other overflow options. That could be alleviated by simply buffing overflows and chain blast might fit in a little more neatly. I don't know, what's better?; up to 5 attacks on some mooks with the chance of ending on a miss, or a reasonably scaled at will AOE on 5 mooks. Chain blast also has the benefit of not hitting your allies, unless you really want to.

again, the issue is chain blast is balanced around your blasts being kind of ass, if there is any way to make your blasts actually good, then chain blast would quickly get out of control,


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Spamming earth walls is just so much fun though. I feel like control is a hard thing to overtune especially when the theme of your character is "I control earth and stone."

Like "the person who is best at walls" was also the 1e Kineticist.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Spamming earth walls is just so much fun though. I feel like control is a hard thing to overtune especially when the theme of your character is "I control earth and stone."

Like "the person who is best at walls" was also the 1e Kineticist.

I like the combo ability to sustain your wall and then add steps on one side for your allies to use too.


Kekkres wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
I sure hope chain blast sticks around. My current issue with it is that it's essentially a better AOE than your other overflow options. That could be alleviated by simply buffing overflows and chain blast might fit in a little more neatly. I don't know, what's better?; up to 5 attacks on some mooks with the chance of ending on a miss, or a reasonably scaled at will AOE on 5 mooks. Chain blast also has the benefit of not hitting your allies, unless you really want to.
again, the issue is chain blast is balanced around your blasts being kind of ass, if there is any way to make your blasts actually good, then chain blast would quickly get out of control,

Yeah, I've been thinking of that too. Apologies, I didn't actually finish reading your first post. If we do get a damage booster on blasts, I could see chain blast being done away with or rebalanced. 3 targets max would be my guess.


If a meaty single target blast is too much for the sake of balance then I definitely see at will earth walls and at will party flight being beyond the pale for the scope of the class as far as stepping on a casters toes


Yeah the wall of stone is way too good, all the other walls in the class are 3 actions and overflow, except that one for some reason, and it's already considered the best wall in the game on the spell form.

Flinging Updraft becomes basically a better spell lvl 9 collective transposition at a character lvl 10, pretty fun feat though.


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On the subject of Chain Blast, it's a bit more useful to water and earth because you don't have agile, making the baseline comparison more helpful, but the short range makes it a bit more difficult to get a full chain going without adding on a range increment (much more for earth and water, admittedly).


Xenocrat wrote:
On the subject of Chain Blast, it's a bit more useful to water and earth because you don't have agile, making the baseline comparison more helpful, but the short range makes it a bit more difficult to get a full chain going without adding on a range increment (much more for earth and water, admittedly).

I think that's a decent balance point for the short range blasts vs the long range ones for chain blast. Fire is likely to have all 5 targets in range, air will always have every target in range. Water and earth have to be a bit luckier but have better damage to compensate.


Earth and Water can just target the party Barbarian for a range boost.


Guntermench wrote:
Earth and Water can just target the party Barbarian for a range boost.

Good point. They can take it.


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I'm not sure that the earth wall impulse being better than the other elements' wall impulse is a problem. Just like how air is the best at movement and enabling movement, earth should probably be the best at blocking and impeding movement. Earth already is dealing with the most limited AoE attacks (a 5' burst, a 30' line, and a 5' square+adjacent are what you get before level 18) so I think "the earth wall is better than the non-earth walls" is reasonable and also there should be an impulse that creates cover on demand before level 14.


aobst128 wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Earth and Water can just target the party Barbarian for a range boost.
Good point. They can take it.

And they're easier to hit!


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Is Earth wall too good? Or are the other walls too weak?

It seems to me that the problem isn't that Earth Wall is broken, but that the other walls required way too many actions for what little they do.


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Earth Wall is great. It's one of the abilities that doesn't feel like it's being balanced against cantrips.

Honestly though the only thing that made me think "wow that's really strong" is the potential omni-gate has with elemental resistance. Especially since the resistance applies to everything that comes from a creature with the appropriate trait, rather than just abilities with the trait itself, makes them really good at f!$$ing with elementals and dragons.

Granted it's kind of encounter/campaign specific, but probably the most noteworthy combination the class has.


Chain Blast is very good because it's basically because it's a Penetrating Shot that can hit up to 5 creatures, that don't have friendly fire risk neither need that the creatures are in same line or in a little burst area.

About the 2-action lost risk this isn't a great problem if you are playing in a turret situation. If you don't use Chain Blast and use Impulse Blast instead you will have a first no-MAP Strike then a second MAP -4/-5 Strike but if you try to use your 3º action to Impulse Blast you have to deal with MAP -8/-10 that's hardly hits anything except oozes. You still can use your 3º action to do other thing like Stride or Stoke Element but it's not like your 3º actions is too useful when you are already in 3º MAP.
So if your first Chain Blast hit miss you still can use Elemental Blast as MAP -4/-5. But if it hit (and it have a good chance to hit once you usually focus the 1º blast in the lesser AC creature) you are already profiting, your second blast already is no-MAD. Anything beyond that is advantage.

This ability in the end still best then abilities like Double Shot because it don't have any initial penalty and the MAP doesn't jump to 10 in the end when you miss. And it's incomparable with Overflow Impulse that have an area that dependeds from opponents and allies locations and will consume you gathered element.

The other good thing about Chain Blast is that Universalist can control damage/distance. If the targets a far from 60 ft use air, if is far from 30 use fire, otherwise use water.

About Earth Wall I agree with Temperans. It's not like they are too good. Earth walls are used for battle field control only, they don't do damage. The main problems is that the other walls that are too bad.

And the Wings of Air is by far the most OP flying ability of the game. Not only because it's spamable unlimited flying without waste spellslots or stop to refocus but because it's don't requires fly action. Any impulse action (even not air) can sustain you in the air, and you can goes up without any restriction. And after lvl 14th the entire party can fly around freely!

I'm already seeing an entire lvl 14 5 PC party flying V around! (kkkkkk)

"What's this? A bird? A magical flying machine? No it's just a bunch of flying adventurers flying around" ;D


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It does require an Air Impulse every round to keep flying without using a Fly Action, and all the extra things it adds are not added to the version your allies get, so they will still have to spend an Action Flying each round.


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Point of clarity, you can't really "spam" the earth wall when it's "sustained up to 1 minute"

You could at most maintain two walls at once, right?

As a GM I do hate wall of stone with a passion, but I would hardly consider that spamming.


Ryuujin-sama wrote:
It does require an Air Impulse every round to keep flying without using a Fly Action, and all the extra things it adds are not added to the version your allies get, so they will still have to spend an Action Flying each round.

Yep but still a fantastic Impulse just 1 level higher then fly spell, unlimited uses, and that can be shared freely.

A spellcaster need to cast 5 fly to do same thing in lvl 14. And will require lvl 7 spellslot if want to fly more than 5 minutes.


YuriP wrote:
Ryuujin-sama wrote:
It does require an Air Impulse every round to keep flying without using a Fly Action, and all the extra things it adds are not added to the version your allies get, so they will still have to spend an Action Flying each round.

Yep but still a fantastic Impulse just 1 level higher then fly spell, unlimited uses, and that can be shared freely.

A spellcaster need to cast 5 fly to do same thing in lvl 14. And will require lvl 7 spellslot if want to fly more than 5 minutes.

The party version might be a problem, but the basic version is on par with focus spells that already exist. Ranger is probably the best case there, getting 1 minute of flight starting at level 7... off a level 4 feat. Sorcerer has more limited flight on one of the bloodlines (the better one is a level 10 feat). Sprites get it as an ancestry feat they can activate every hour at 9.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah I won't say it isn't a great Impulse that would be taken at 8th, or 10th at the latest, on any character that gets Air Impulses. I wouldn't say it is broken or OP, but it is powerful. It gets more consistent flight earlier than most options, but by the time you can spread the flight around you might have been able to pick up Flight at will through some other method. Since permanent/near-permanent flight is not entirely consistent on when it arrives.


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Slippery Sleet seems pretty strong from the Water Element. Uneven Ground is incredibly powerful, even if short lasting, given the potential to waste a lot of the enemy's actions, on top of being difficult terrain and being in a large area, specially at 6th level. It seems more like a PF1e battlefield control ability than PF2e.


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The problem of Slippery Sleet is that it's damage is less than a cantrip and is a 3-action Overflow. Also Uneven Ground is subject to friend fire. So isn't too good if you have melee allies too close needing to pass in that area. Also the fixed balance DC is low for lvl 6 and don't progress. A median level 6 creature have +13.65 in acrobatics. Meaning is about 5% to chance to an opponent to really loose some action.

Sorry but it's far from good, specially for a 3-action overflow.


Most creatures are not trained in acrobatics, so they roll raw Dex.

I would not say that is OP, but it's a very strong option.


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Nop, about 56% of creatures are proficient in Acrobatics. It's basically a coin toss.


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YuriP wrote:
Nop, about 56% of creatures are proficient in Acrobatics. It's basically a coin toss.

Then you add into that creatures that have other forms or movement [like a shark not having acrobatics] and the number of creatures that have to worry about it are even less.


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graystone wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Nop, about 56% of creatures are proficient in Acrobatics. It's basically a coin toss.
Then you add into that creatures that have other forms or movement [like a shark not having acrobatics] and the number of creatures that have to worry about it are even less.

It's a complex thing to figure out. Because how common they are to encounter can vary.

Like one might encounter a lot of things with Acrobatics for balance in the mountains but fewer in the plains. Plus some campaigns might be undead focused. A plain count by itself isn't super telling of one side is more populated with very commonly encountered things.


cheezeofjustice wrote:
graystone wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Nop, about 56% of creatures are proficient in Acrobatics. It's basically a coin toss.
Then you add into that creatures that have other forms or movement [like a shark not having acrobatics] and the number of creatures that have to worry about it are even less.

It's a complex thing to figure out. Because how common they are to encounter can vary.

Like one might encounter a lot of things with Acrobatics for balance in the mountains but fewer in the plains. Plus some campaigns might be undead focused. A plain count by itself isn't super telling of one side is more populated with very commonly encountered things.

True, but I was picking out things that normally wouldn't have to walk along the ground: for instance fish and ghosts don't have acrobatics but also don't have to worry about ice in the ground. There are also creatures like Frost Trolls that have no acrobatics but specific immunities to ice terrain.

This means that any listing of just acrobatics is going to miss these exception meaning that the number of creatures that don't have to worry about a 15 DC acrobatics check is going to be higher. And, of course, it can also be skewed because of the particulars of the game you're playing and what terrain is there.


Things have to have acrobatics or athletics in case someone wants to grab it.


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Would be nice if Shape Aura or some built in ability allowed a Water Kineticist to be immune to their own Slippery Sleet as well as making their allies immune to it, so they could just drop in where they need without worrying about messing up their own party.


Ryuujin-sama wrote:
Would be nice if Shape Aura or some built in ability allowed a Water Kineticist to be immune to their own Slippery Sleet as well as making their allies immune to it, so they could just drop in where they need without worrying about messing up their own party.

Eh, if you want to ruin your opponent's footing, Air and Earth already have auras for that. Halving the speed of every enemy within 30' is powerful.


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The Earth Aura fails to create difficult terrain in situations like "on the second floor" and "on a boat" while the Air one does not, which is unfortunate in the former case. This is one of these "guess where you'll be fighting" choices that I don't like making at low levels.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
The Earth Aura fails to create difficult terrain in situations like "on the second floor" and "on a boat" while the Air one does not, which is unfortunate in the former case. This is one of these "guess where you'll be fighting" choices that I don't like making at low levels.

I'm in the same boat as you. I always avoid situational feats, anything that depends on terrain or type of enemy (unless it's a specific type of enemy that other wise you can't deal with, like incorporeal or the like) or even alignment. I am glad there's specific wording on being able to gather fire underwater or gather air in a vacuum, that's a really great distinction.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well if you are Water only you can't really grab the Air or Earth auras. That said if you are in a party of Lizardfolk with Terrain Advantage the Water aura can make some enemies flatfooted to your allies, situationally. Only up to 3 contiguous squares and it doesn't work on your turn since you place the difficult terrain at the end of your turn and they go away at the start of your turn. Obviously a party of Lizardfolk with Terrain Mastery would benefit more from the Air aura.

A Lizardfolk might be able to pick up the Changeling Heritage, unless it is more limited on what Ancestries can pick it, and maybe go for the Snow May ancestry feat which lets them ignore the Uneven Ground from Slippery Sleet, or the Difficult Terrain of snow. Undine heritage on the other hand can gran some cold resist but I think ignoring the Uneven Ground is more useful.

I do feel like there were more feats in Ancestries/Heritages to ignore uneven ground/difficult terrain from snow or icy terrain but I can't seem to figure out where they are.


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After some actual play, the only thing that i would say it is actually overpowered is Wings of Air. Permanent fly for oneself at 8 and then for the party at 14 is too much. I would make it so it has a 1 hour CD at level 8, then becomes just permanent at 14 (no need to use the actions, like, whats the point anyway) and then a 1 hour CD for allies. Baing able to refresh it out of combat every 5 minutes or so and starting every combat with its effects is stupid.

Clear as Air is not overpowered per se on a Kineticist, but it will definitely be on other classes through multiclass, unless multiclassing for overflow abilities is severely capped. Level 10 onwards it gives you automatic flat-footed for your first attack and permanent concealed, on top of being a permanent invisibility out of combat. All of that for 1 action per turn.

Wall of Stone (lite) is looking pretty spicy as well, but not sure if it is overpowered or not.

YuriP wrote:
The problem of Slippery Sleet is that it's damage is less than a cantrip and is a 3-action Overflow. Also Uneven Ground is subject to friend fire. So isn't too good if you have melee allies too close needing to pass in that area. Also the fixed balance DC is low for lvl 6 and don't progress. A median level 6 creature have +13.65 in acrobatics. Meaning is about 5% to chance to an opponent to really loose some action.

Agreed, I used it today during my playtesting. The 3 action cost plus the 1 round duration kills the feat.


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roquepo wrote:
After some actual play, the only thing that i would say it is actually overpowered is Wings of Air. Permanent fly for oneself at 8 and then for the party at 14 is too much. I would make it so it has a 1 hour CD at level 8, then becomes just permanent at 14 (no need to use the actions, like, whats the point anyway) and then a 1 hour CD for allies. Baing able to refresh it out of combat every 5 minutes or so and starting every combat with its effects is stupid.

Does it need a full hour cooldown? I'm pretty sure I saw other Impulses that had a 10 minute cooldown that only started after the Impulse ended, might be a good compromise for Wings of Air that brings it in line with Focus Spells.

Just bringing it down to once every other ten minutes really restricts it, simply because you cannot assume it will be active at the start of combat.


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I don't see much problem with unlimited fly because usually the movement are pretty same of land speed. So it's more useful during encounters or some specific situations to pass over barriers and hazards and this already can be done using spells, some focus spells and ancestry feats.

The main thing I think is too good is the ability to ignore the fly action merging it with any Impulses. But I understand in a class where we have Overflow abilities that force to use one action to fly will kill the Overflow. Maybe if just Overflow Impulses to able to merged with fly feels more fair.

The other strange OP is the free party fly at lvl 14. This is fantastic good. Is very action economic (you can make everyone fly with 2-action) and can give devastating advantages in many situations. Only the most melee classes like Barbarian that could refuse the advantage of fly over it's opponents. Also I don't remember to see any spell doing something like this.


Djinn71 wrote:
roquepo wrote:
After some actual play, the only thing that i would say it is actually overpowered is Wings of Air. Permanent fly for oneself at 8 and then for the party at 14 is too much. I would make it so it has a 1 hour CD at level 8, then becomes just permanent at 14 (no need to use the actions, like, whats the point anyway) and then a 1 hour CD for allies. Baing able to refresh it out of combat every 5 minutes or so and starting every combat with its effects is stupid.

Does it need a full hour cooldown? I'm pretty sure I saw other Impulses that had a 10 minute cooldown that only started after the Impulse ended, might be a good compromise for Wings of Air that brings it in line with Focus Spells.

Just bringing it down to once every other ten minutes really restricts it, simply because you cannot assume it will be active at the start of combat.

I don't know, honestly. It would make it so you at least have to guess when to use it sometimes, but chances are that for most situations you would have it precasted with 1 minute or more of duration if you just use it on CD, so for all purposes it would be almost the same.

YuriP wrote:
I don't see much problem with unlimited fly because usually the movement are pretty same of land speed. So it's more useful during encounters or some specific situations to pass over barriers and hazards and this already can be done using spells, some focus spells and ancestry feats.

Half of the bestiary at those levels just can't deal well enough (or at all) with a flying PC that fights at range to suppose a meaningful threat. It is a problem if it costs 0 actions and no resources.

Also, the impulse part is 100% neccesary. WIthout it you would be falling to the ground every other turn.


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I'll just point out that it's not like Ranger can't already be flying every fight starting at level 7 with the APG.


Dubious Scholar wrote:
I'll just point out that it's not like Ranger can't already be flying every fight starting at level 7 with the APG.

I'm not against fly being that accesible, the issue is that Wings of air costs effectively 0 actions and resources. Ranger needs to expend 1 action at the beginning of combat and 1 of their focus points (if they spend more, they can't regain 2 until level 12).

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