paizo.com Recent Posts in Evaluating the impulsespaizo.com Recent Posts in Evaluating the impulses2022-08-15T00:29:35Z2022-08-15T00:29:35ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesDubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#422022-08-16T19:00:55Z2022-08-16T19:00:55Z<p>Water isn't better fire. Tidal hands is better than blazing wave as printed, sure. But that's not enough to say water is better than fire. Fire has a lot of party support in combat that water doesn't. Water breathing is situational, party-wide concealment is not.</p>
<p>Edit: It appears that I missed that Solar Detonation has the Incapacitate trait. That's... just awful, seriously. Why? Just change the crit fail to blinded 1 round, dazzled 1 minute (which is weaker than Glitterdust, which is not incap) then.</p>Water isn't better fire. Tidal hands is better than blazing wave as printed, sure. But that's not enough to say water is better than fire. Fire has a lot of party support in combat that water doesn't. Water breathing is situational, party-wide concealment is not.
Edit: It appears that I missed that Solar Detonation has the Incapacitate trait. That's... just awful, seriously. Why? Just change the crit fail to blinded 1 round, dazzled 1 minute (which is weaker than Glitterdust, which is not...Dubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)2022-08-16T19:00:55ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesmanbearscientisthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#412022-08-17T00:56:39Z2022-08-16T18:49:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Dubious Scholar wrote:</div><blockquote> And the last part for water.</blockquote></blockquote><p>I'm surprised to hear you relatively okay with fire, but antagonistic against better fire.
<p>And that's what water is, for the most part. Better fire. I rest my case on Blazing Wave vs. Tidal Hands.</p>
<p>Tidal Hands is level 1 rather than 4, an arguably better damage type, and far more flexible in its area. This pattern repeats with Winter's Clutch and Slippery Sheet. </p>
<p>Water gets more, better, earlier. They have a joke of a level 18 feat, but they will do dramatically more damage as-written throughout the course of a campaign. And I don't know about you, but I've found far use for waterbreathing then torches throughout my 2E campaigns.</p>Dubious Scholar wrote:And the last part for water.
I'm surprised to hear you relatively okay with fire, but antagonistic against better fire. And that's what water is, for the most part. Better fire. I rest my case on Blazing Wave vs. Tidal Hands.
Tidal Hands is level 1 rather than 4, an arguably better damage type, and far more flexible in its area. This pattern repeats with Winter's Clutch and Slippery Sheet.
Water gets more, better, earlier. They have a joke of a level 18 feat, but they...manbearscientist2022-08-16T18:49:44ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesErrenorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#402022-08-16T18:35:59Z2022-08-16T18:35:59Z<p>IGNEOGENESIS 18: can you make a 5-square line (25ft) from you or 5-square column with you or someone adjacent on top of it?</p>IGNEOGENESIS 18: can you make a 5-square line (25ft) from you or 5-square column with you or someone adjacent on top of it?Errenor2022-08-16T18:35:59ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesErrenorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#392022-08-16T18:51:31Z2022-08-16T17:58:50Z<p>What is the third effect of the SOOTHING BREEZE I wonder...</p>What is the third effect of the SOOTHING BREEZE I wonder...Errenor2022-08-16T17:58:50ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesDubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#382022-08-16T16:24:33Z2022-08-16T16:24:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">rayous brightblade wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Dubious Scholar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Ferocious Cyclone:
</p>
A big linear wind blast. Averages 38.5 damage and increases by 5.5 every... 3 levels. Remember what I said about the last one that scaled this way? This tops out at 49.5. But this is only two actions, so I think it's okay? The push, as usual, isn't very relevant I feel. Now, my real suggestion here is thematic. Make this a fortitude save. You don't dodge this, you withstand it. Also, maybe make it a double wide line. </blockquote>This is already a double wide line, the area is a 10 ft wide 60ft line. Most lines are 5ft wide. </blockquote><p>Hah, whoops. Missed that width when reading it. Then my only real suggestion is to make this one a fortitude save I guess. ...and not do +3 scaling.rayous brightblade wrote:Dubious Scholar wrote:Ferocious Cyclone:
A big linear wind blast. Averages 38.5 damage and increases by 5.5 every... 3 levels. Remember what I said about the last one that scaled this way? This tops out at 49.5. But this is only two actions, so I think it's okay? The push, as usual, isn't very relevant I feel. Now, my real suggestion here is thematic. Make this a fortitude save. You don't dodge this, you withstand it. Also, maybe make it a double wide line.
This is...Dubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)2022-08-16T16:24:33ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesrayous brightbladehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#372022-08-16T16:12:40Z2022-08-16T16:12:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Dubious Scholar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Ferocious Cyclone:
</p>
A big linear wind blast. Averages 38.5 damage and increases by 5.5 every... 3 levels. Remember what I said about the last one that scaled this way? This tops out at 49.5. But this is only two actions, so I think it's okay? The push, as usual, isn't very relevant I feel. Now, my real suggestion here is thematic. Make this a fortitude save. You don't dodge this, you withstand it. Also, maybe make it a double wide line. </blockquote><p>This is already a double wide line, the area is a 10 ft wide 60ft line. Most lines are 5ft wide.Dubious Scholar wrote:Ferocious Cyclone:
A big linear wind blast. Averages 38.5 damage and increases by 5.5 every... 3 levels. Remember what I said about the last one that scaled this way? This tops out at 49.5. But this is only two actions, so I think it's okay? The push, as usual, isn't very relevant I feel. Now, my real suggestion here is thematic. Make this a fortitude save. You don't dodge this, you withstand it. Also, maybe make it a double wide line.
This is already a double wide...rayous brightblade2022-08-16T16:12:40ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesDubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#362022-08-16T05:18:23Z2022-08-16T05:18:23Z<p>Yep. Which is why I call out the free gathers playing nice with Haste - you can then use your extra action to stride or strike, which are more generally useful I feel. You can Gather, Strike, Stride, 2-action Overflow for your turn, for instance.</p>
<p>I want to add one caveat to all this... or reiterate it I guess. I have something of a target for damage I was aiming for with suggestions. I tried to be consistent but I probably wasn't (I have some concerns if I pushed the numbers high enough on three action overflows compared to two and such). It's a conservative target, and I know I've seen people pushing for higher damage amounts than I've suggested here. I'm not entirely sure if this is enough damage to make blasts feel good or not overall, but I'm pretty sure anything less than this is bad.</p>
<p>I'm kind of annoyed Earth doesn't really have a single damaging impulse I like as printed before Shattered Mountain Weeps. I need to actually see Boomerang in play to make a final call (this is on my todo list), but I'm comfortable with Tidal Hands and Blazing Wave as early damage options for their elements (I would take Tidal Hands as my basic damage impulse on basically any build with water, in fact - I feel the flexibility and size of its AoE, plus the damage as printed, are absolutely worth the actions expended)</p>Yep. Which is why I call out the free gathers playing nice with Haste - you can then use your extra action to stride or strike, which are more generally useful I feel. You can Gather, Strike, Stride, 2-action Overflow for your turn, for instance.
I want to add one caveat to all this... or reiterate it I guess. I have something of a target for damage I was aiming for with suggestions. I tried to be consistent but I probably wasn't (I have some concerns if I pushed the numbers high enough on...Dubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)2022-08-16T05:18:23ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesPossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#352022-08-16T03:51:50Z2022-08-16T03:51:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Xenocrat wrote:</div><blockquote> The free gather abilities for earth and fire are compatible with haste, which the 19th level ability conflicts with. </blockquote><p>The 19th level ability doesn't really conflict with Haste, being Hasted past 19th just means that you can use your extra action to stride, strike, or gather.Xenocrat wrote:The free gather abilities for earth and fire are compatible with haste, which the 19th level ability conflicts with.
The 19th level ability doesn't really conflict with Haste, being Hasted past 19th just means that you can use your extra action to stride, strike, or gather.PossibleCabbage2022-08-16T03:51:50ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesXenocrathttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#342022-08-16T03:45:41Z2022-08-16T03:45:41Z<p>The free gather abilities for earth and fire are compatible with haste, which the 19th level ability conflicts with.</p>The free gather abilities for earth and fire are compatible with haste, which the 19th level ability conflicts with.Xenocrat2022-08-16T03:45:41ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesPossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#332022-08-16T10:31:32Z2022-08-16T03:18:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gaulin wrote:</div><blockquote> For earth at least I would say gather, overflow ability, gather, earth Shield would be a good use. </blockquote><p>Unfortunately, the two action overflow abilities earth gets are either pretty bad or are purely defensive.Gaulin wrote:For earth at least I would say gather, overflow ability, gather, earth Shield would be a good use.
Unfortunately, the two action overflow abilities earth gets are either pretty bad or are purely defensive.PossibleCabbage2022-08-16T03:18:46ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesGaulinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#322022-08-16T03:07:16Z2022-08-16T03:07:16Z<p>For earth at least I would say gather, overflow ability, gather, earth Shield would be a good use.</p>For earth at least I would say gather, overflow ability, gather, earth Shield would be a good use.Gaulin2022-08-16T03:07:16ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesPossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#312022-08-16T02:57:21Z2022-08-16T02:57:21Z<p>With Furnace Form and also Rebirth in Living Stone you get a free gather, and once you get permanently quickened at level 19 it appears that there should be some sort of strategy where "gathering twice in one turn" is desirable but I can't figure out what it is.</p>With Furnace Form and also Rebirth in Living Stone you get a free gather, and once you get permanently quickened at level 19 it appears that there should be some sort of strategy where "gathering twice in one turn" is desirable but I can't figure out what it is.PossibleCabbage2022-08-16T02:57:21ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesshroudbhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#302022-08-16T02:41:24Z2022-08-16T02:41:24Z<p>A note on early Furnace form (pre-16):</p>
<p>the free gather can actually be useful in a dual element setup with water.</p>
<p>You start in fire, go into furnace mode, get your free 20 feet fly movement, use cycling blast to get the fire blast and the extra damage on it, cycle to water.
<br />
Now, you have your reaction to reduce damage primed and ready. If you get hit, use the reaction (overflow) and next turn you regather fire for free.
<br />
also, in exploration mode is basically full on flight mode for fire since you can keep casting it and fiery form gives fly 40.</p>A note on early Furnace form (pre-16):
the free gather can actually be useful in a dual element setup with water.
You start in fire, go into furnace mode, get your free 20 feet fly movement, use cycling blast to get the fire blast and the extra damage on it, cycle to water.
Now, you have your reaction to reduce damage primed and ready. If you get hit, use the reaction (overflow) and next turn you regather fire for free.
also, in exploration mode is basically full on flight mode for fire...shroudb2022-08-16T02:41:24ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesXenocrathttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#292022-08-16T00:15:26Z2022-08-16T00:15:26Z<p>Glad to see the Get in the Sea meme get some love in 2022.</p>Glad to see the Get in the Sea meme get some love in 2022.Xenocrat2022-08-16T00:15:26ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesDubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#282022-08-16T19:24:32Z2022-08-15T23:56:42Z<p>And the last part for water.</p>
<p>Water
<br />
Level 1:
<br />
Deflecting Wave:
<br />
A damage reduction reaction is cool. But as an overflow this is useless. Remove overflow and adjust the numbers if needed.</p>
<p>Tidal Hands:
<br />
I like the option of dual cones or a single big cone. The range on dual cones is short but it's flexible. Damage is fine, at 7 average, increasing by 3.5 every two levels. It's an AoE telekinetic projectile basically for one additional action.</p>
<p>Water Dance:
<br />
Donate movement to allies or zip along yourself. Not as useful on yourself (a fairly minor speed gain, and none at all for elves out of the water), but protects against reactions partially. The scaling makes this better over time, I'll complain about +3 all day long but it's more forgivable here I suppose</p>
<p>Winter's Clutch:
<br />
Cold damage equal to your level as an aura. The difficult terrain is interesting but I'm not sure how to grade it. Honestly the raw damage here is solid and you uh... you may want to find party members with cold resistance until you can exclude them with Aura Shaping (and a 30' cold field indefinitely is a nice way to open any fight - this offers no saves whatsoever)</p>
<p>Level 4:
<br />
Return to the Sea:
<br />
Utility, gives anyone a swim speed, but can't do it for a party until it upgrades. The benefit of ignoring underwater penalties to bludgeoning and slashing mean your ranged strikes can hit and is a useful benefit for party martials. No overflow trait, you can keep this going all day effortlessly. Not always useful, but trivializes aquatic combat if it is.</p>
<p>Veil of Mists:
<br />
Illusory disguise for 10 minutes, then 10m before you can use it again? I find the short duration awkward, otherwise this is basically just the same as the spell. Requires more creativity to abuse perhaps. Not much else to say, though I feel level 4 impulses are somewhat narrower for water than other elements.</p>
<p>Level 6:
<br />
Slippery Sleet:
<br />
Large area, long range... and only 10 damage average and 2.5 scaling for a 3 action overflow leaves much to be desired in the raw damage area. However, the area becomes difficult terrain and uneven ground, forcing most creatures to be flat footed until your next turn. The impact on movement and AC this brings mean it doesn't need as much raw damage, so it's probably fine as is? More testing required on if that's really enough... maybe bump some more damage in or increase the size of the area.</p>
<p>Standing Surf:
<br />
The last of the walls. Wall of Water is... useful against some things and much less so others. Being shorter is a problem, as is the extreme action cost with 3+overflow+sustain, so I think something needs to change here.</p>
<p>Level 8:
<br />
Lowland Fog:
<br />
This is great, until something attacks and then it just... doesn't do anything anymore? This should not cost 3+overflow I think. Shave off an action or two and it becomes interesting combat utility.</p>
<p>Torrent in the Blood:
<br />
Another focus healing alternative, but this one has a critical gap - you can't heal yourself with it because you can't include yourself in a cone. It should change to include you in it I think, but otherwise the healing is acceptable, the poison/disease cure is a good rider, etc.</p>
<p>Level 12:
<br />
Drowning Sphere:
<br />
It's not overflow which is helpful, and the sphere can be the source of melee blasts. I think this is probably fine as is. It's a much better option than Standing Surf for battlefield control.</p>
<p>Glacial Prison:
<br />
Oof. I do not like this. It sounds cool, but it's a lot of actions to eat 1-4 actions from an enemy, except attacking them removes the freeze so if that happens before their turn the failure doesn't even matter? I'd address that for sure. Possibly just make it stunned for one round instead of this whole petrified but it doesn't actually count stuff? Does a petrified enemy have the AC of an unattended object (5 lol) and eat critical damage? Because then I don't care, abuse delay and let a barbarian shatter them. (...do they shatter?). This has a few too many questions so yeah, just use stunned instead.</p>
<p>Level 14:
<br />
Barrier of Boreal Frost:
<br />
Oh hey there was another wall. This is... bad. 3+overflow, sustained, can't use the very useful dome mode of the spell... not feeling it. If the dome was available I could see using this for the unique application of summoning up a cage on enemies.</p>
<p>Sea Glass Guardian:
<br />
The last kinetic aura, and another damage source without saves for water. This does 8-16 damage as punishment for hitting you or allies in the aura, and you can choose the damage type when casting it. The problem is that your level 1 aura does 14-20 damage, even if only once, but punishes just being in the area. Of course, if a boss hits the tank three times this hits harder, so it's a trade off and I'd probably take both and choose based on the fight. I think this is fine as is.</p>
<p>Level 18:
<br />
Ride the Tsunami:
<br />
So, average of 44 damage, 60' cone. This needs to hit harder. The pushing is cute but unreliable. Repositioning as part of this is really useful, but I wouldn't really consider it for budgeting power - you're probably trying to be in a good spot to unload from before you use this, right?</p>
<p>Usurp the Lunar Reins:
<br />
The absolute biggest gap between how cool it sounds and how useless it is. If I want difficult terrain I've got Slippery Sleet already. Negating difficult terrain at 18 isn't a huge deal. This needs to be significantly reworked. My first pass at this would be to raise water level 10' in a 30' burst, holding it there, and it's greater difficult terrain (or difficult terrain if you swim, but the swim DC is class DC? Someone do the math if that's too much?). And then it's doing some amount of constant bludgeoning damage from debris being tossed around the raging waters. Basically no upfront damage but massive battlefield control to pin down enemies and such. Considering the size enemies can be at this level, possibly allow it to summon forth even larger amounts of water or grow in area when sustained?</p>
<p>Overall... I'm iffier on water as a whole. It has some desires to do battlefield control, but has the worst level 18 impulse, both walls are bad. It has good auras, and the usual issues on blasts. I feel like it has the most narrow utility compared to other elements - it takes more control effects where they'd get things with both in and out of battle uses. So I'd take a real look at that and what can be done?</p>And the last part for water.
Water
Level 1:
Deflecting Wave:
A damage reduction reaction is cool. But as an overflow this is useless. Remove overflow and adjust the numbers if needed.
Tidal Hands:
I like the option of dual cones or a single big cone. The range on dual cones is short but it's flexible. Damage is fine, at 7 average, increasing by 3.5 every two levels. It's an AoE telekinetic projectile basically for one additional action.
Water Dance:
Donate movement to allies or zip along...Dubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)2022-08-15T23:56:42ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesDubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#272022-08-16T18:50:25Z2022-08-15T22:08:10Z<p>Part 3, Fire. In which we visit the Boneyard every round for kicks.</p>
<p>Fire
<br />
Level 1:
<br />
Burning Jet:
<br />
Movement that doesn't trigger reactions. Straight line is a minor limitation most of the time, and you can't go airborne until 6th level. But at 10 this is pseudo-flight. The problem is the action cost... you're not really able to do aerial combat with this, it just lets you shrug off stuff in exploration. But for a first level feat that seems alright. No issues here.</p>
<p>Eternal Torch:
<br />
Continual Flame, basically. Note that this is actual hurting fire. If you want to be mean, this doesn't require a willing target, so set a spark orbiting someone and blackmail them to make it go away instead of burning their house down if they try to sleep. Anyways, evil options aside, this is... fairly minor utility except for fun interactions with one later option.</p>
<p>Flame Eruption:
<br />
So, this seems like it wants to be a 5' burst based on later text, which improves it slightly, primarily by doubling the effective hazardous terrain damage this can do. The damage is bad. 3.5 average, +3 scaling (stop it). Needs a bit more base damage and should just be +2 scaling, even if that means it goes to the same 2d4 and d4 the others do. But the hazardous terrain is interesting. Make this a 5' burst like the second paragraph implies and it's big enough to sometimes hit two things, sometimes force some hot feet, and bigger monsters are going to hate taking, effectively, your level in fire damage as they can't avoid walking over it twice. So yeah, bad as is, potential to be good, like most of the blasts I've gone over.</p>
<p>Warming Nimbus:
<br />
Gives protection against fire and cold damage, which are the most common energy types. Aura Shaping probably doesn't matter much since so many things that use them are resistant already. Good but situational. But I think it's fine for what it is, I just don't expect it to be taken except by dedicated gates or if a campaign has a lot of fire damage around.</p>
<p>Level 4:
<br />
Blazing Wave:
<br />
Now this I like. 12.5 average damage, scaling 1d6 every two(!) levels. This is basically the damage output of Telekinetic Projectile to everything in a 30' cone. Which makes it a good bit more damaging than Electric Arc (11 damage average here because of that +4 flat damage, but scales slower) and a 30' cone is enough to hit more than two enemies a lot of the time. Prone on crit fail is cute. This is solid and I have no complaints.</p>
<p>Desert Shimmer:
<br />
Permanent concealment for you, damage to enemies? I dislike seeing +3 scaling on the damage here, again. But this is fine, and Aura Shaping makes it great because your allies will get the benefit of concealment without drawbacks too... eventually. I think everyone wants Aura Shaping pretty much though, every element has some really nice aura for it. I don't know if making the scaling +2 is too much damage here but I doubt it with what water has, so just do that and I'm happy.</p>
<p>Level 6:
<br />
Crawling Fire:
<br />
Okay... this basically creates some second you that you can use as the source of blasts. Useful for things like cones and such, but it can be attacked just like you too. It isn't an overflow, and has no max distance though. So you can use this to dramatically increase your attack range (well, it only moves forward 40' a turn, but) and get rid of it to escape. I'm not sure I'd take it personally but it's unique and works fine, so no issues from the playtest perspective I feel.</p>
<p>Wandering Smoke:
<br />
Move through enemies, terrain, no reactions. And can be used on allies. The user gets concealment at the end and it's one-way, for a bit of protection. Smoke sight lasts a full minute though so your party could abuse this with smoke sticks. Overall I think this is fine.</p>
<p>Level 8:
<br />
Kindle Inner Flames:
<br />
Speed boost your party, bonus to reflex and acrobatics, and a one-time damage bonus to strikes. It's not overflow, either. Seems reasonable to me as a whole, if perhaps not always useful.</p>
<p>Solar Detonation:
<br />
Damage starts at 16.5 average and scales horribly with a +4 for 5.5 more. This finishes at 6d10 for 33 average. I don't like +4 scaling, I don't like +2 heightened either, not on blasts. They benefit from more granular damage increases. But this dazzles or blinds the enemies caught in it, which is a fair trade from raw damage, even if it only lasts a round (unless they crit fail, in which case it's a minute of blindness and sucks to be them - that pretty much takes a lot of enemies out of the fight entirely). I think I would switch this to 4d6 with another d6 every two levels - this then ranges from 14 to 35 damage, it's strictly a half-fireball. It may need to be a bit higher, start at 5d6 or even 6d6. But the dazzled/blind rider is potent even if it's a one-time deal... although there's an issue that it doesn't stack well with Desert Shimmer and that with Aura Shaping probably is just better, and you use Blazing Wave for your damage. So this may need to do something other than dazzled/blind. Difficult.</p>
<p>Level 12:
<br />
Architect of Flame:
<br />
A significantly weaker wall of flame. No 20 scaling hurts too. I don't think I'd ever take this, though not being sustained is a plus. I'm just not excited, and making it extra tall while even shorter (I assume it means to reduce length and not make this some 60' by 20' inferno) is unappealing. I question the need for the damage to drop this much mainly.</p>
<p>Furnace Form:
<br />
Initially this is just a way to empower a few strikes, and get some resists. The free action gather element is basically pointless since this isn't overflow, you can't overflow before your next turn afterwards, and then it ends. But once this empowers at 16 it all changes, because this lets you go wild. And, as noted for earth, this allows Haste to work on you while getting a free gather still, unlike the level 19 class feature.</p>
<p>Level 14:
<br />
Arrive in Conflagration:
<br />
This is a way to escape while hurting enemies. Or well, it would be if the damage was worth mentioning. Also +3 scaling but honestly, it's bad and stays bad. I would definitely boost that and make it +2 and such. The other issue is needing an open flame... did you take Eternal Torch? If you gave your allies some torches on their gear, this lets you warp to any of them. It lets you do all sorts of fun things with that. Light a rock on fire and throw it over a pit, etc. I'd fix the damage and that's all that needs to happen? Or possibly even remove it and make this not overflow, that's fine too.</p>
<p>Horrid Ignition:
<br />
The only impulse that's just an alternate elemental blast basically, but 3d6 persistent fire is nothing to sneeze at. This isn't even overflow. This gets the bonuses of all your other strike empowering stuff too (Fire has a lot of that, actually). And it enfeebles as a bonus, no save, which reduces most creatures accuracy a notch. No need to change anything here.</p>
<p>Level 18:
<br />
All Shall End in Flames:
<br />
KABOOOM. The emanation mode is cute, remember emanations can include you or not at your discretion. Since this has no persistent damage like Shattered Mountain, it needs to hit harder than 38.5 scaling to 44. Add some dice please, this is eating four of my actions. Now, the real trick is that phoenix rebirth shenanigan. But the problem is - you have to make a save against yourself, which is a gamble and I'm kind of iffy on that. I'd say you just take the damage rolled, or may choose to? At least that. The trick here is that at 19, you can do this every turn. And then you're dead between turns as long as it kills you, you revive, gather, explode again, etc. Unless something stops you with a reaction you immolate everything nearby endlessly while racking up frequent dier (dyer? who knows) perks with the Boneyard. Oh yeah, this id a Death effect, so... some stuff is randomly immune to it? But does it really need that trait? Monsters don't go to dying anyways, it's just so it kills the PC using it, isn't it? Needs another look for multiple reasons.</p>
<p>Ignite the Sun:
<br />
So this is Flaming Sphere's big brother. It's +1d6 to outgoing damage for your party (well, for you, for any other martials, and for spellcasters slinging fire, which is a lot). It's the ultimate light source. But it's only 14 damage on average, and that's before the reflex save. For comparison, Flaming Sphere is 11d6. Now, I don't know how much this needs to go up. It does half on success instead of none. It does damage to everything it passes through (30' flight), and it keeps. getting. bigger, up to a 50' burst (I do not think it should be enlarged to that point as a practical matter, that's a 100' across ball of flame, you've set the entire map on fire). ...thinking about it, this is an incredibly flexible AoE actually, I might give it just one more d6? Maybe one more at 20 too? That's 21 damage with basic reflex every round for every enemy plus 1d6 per time they're hit? Someone with experience playing at 20 would need to chime in on that. There's real potential here. Oh, also, this should count as actual sunlight I think. Make those vampires sparkle.</p>
<p>So overall, fire impulses have the usual mix of good and bad blasts (or rather, it has one really good one and the rest need help), a lot of good ways to boost your blast damage (and party strikes). The mobility options are... weaker generally, though Arrive in Conflagration has some options if you get clever about it. Boosting strikes is a unique identity for the element, and that's good. Fix the blast damage and I have no complaints.</p>Part 3, Fire. In which we visit the Boneyard every round for kicks.
Fire
Level 1:
Burning Jet:
Movement that doesn't trigger reactions. Straight line is a minor limitation most of the time, and you can't go airborne until 6th level. But at 10 this is pseudo-flight. The problem is the action cost... you're not really able to do aerial combat with this, it just lets you shrug off stuff in exploration. But for a first level feat that seems alright. No issues here.
Eternal Torch:
Continual...Dubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)2022-08-15T22:08:10ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesXenocrathttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#262022-08-15T16:41:53Z2022-08-15T16:41:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Errenor wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Don't know where best to put it and not sure it deserves its own topic, but this bothers me a little:
</p>
evaluating the name of the IGNEOGENESIS feat I see that it should mean 'fire creation'. But the feat doesn't have anything to do with fire and even volcanoes really.
<br />
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/igneo </blockquote><p>It's named after igenous rocks, which form from magma that comes to the surface and then. I think they were going for the idea that it extrudes from the earth in a semi-liquid state, sets into the shape you choose, then freezes that way.Errenor wrote:Don't know where best to put it and not sure it deserves its own topic, but this bothers me a little:
evaluating the name of the IGNEOGENESIS feat I see that it should mean 'fire creation'. But the feat doesn't have anything to do with fire and even volcanoes really.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/igneo
It's named after igenous rocks, which form from magma that comes to the surface and then. I think they were going for the idea that it extrudes from the earth in a semi-liquid...Xenocrat2022-08-15T16:41:53ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesVerzenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#252022-08-15T17:18:19Z2022-08-15T16:13:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Dubious Scholar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I mean, yes, I did say Tremor needed to do more damage there. If it was a one-action overflow it would be fine of course, but that's true of so many of the damaging ones. So far only Aerial Boomerang and Shattered Mountain have enough output to be just fine as is I think.</p>
<p>On Aerial Boomerang - do you think end of next turn would be better for when it returns? It allows you to better control it, instead of it just almost always striking the same line a second time, but it also forces you to consider it when moving that turn. </blockquote><p>I think it should only require 1 action to do Aerial boomerang and deal 1d4+con in both directions. It technically deals 2 actions total because you're using your gather element, but it deals about the same as electric arc at that point.
<p>It's a slight bump up in damage potential and I think the chances of it hitting 4 enemies total is fairly slim to be better than electric arc.</p>
<p>Electric arc is 6.5 dmg against two enemies. So 6.5 dmg per enemy.</p>
<p>This would deal 6.5 dmg if it hits two enemies as well, but has more range and I think that would be fairly balanced. With the actions only costing 1 action, it would also allow me to move into a different position and fire an elemental blast as well and that kind of turn FEELS good to me. (Fire elemental blast. Use aerial boomerang. Move away)</p>
<p>I'd also be open to aerial boomerang returning and giving you a free gather element as well simply because.. it's a boomerang. It returns to you. </p>
<p>But I do not think taking two actions to throw it feels good since it takes a total of 3 actions, really. </p>
<p>2 to throw, 1 to gather. So if I am to use it's secondary return part as effectively as possible, I have to do this on two separate turns and I think requiring two turn set ups just feels bad.</p>Dubious Scholar wrote:I mean, yes, I did say Tremor needed to do more damage there. If it was a one-action overflow it would be fine of course, but that's true of so many of the damaging ones. So far only Aerial Boomerang and Shattered Mountain have enough output to be just fine as is I think.
On Aerial Boomerang - do you think end of next turn would be better for when it returns? It allows you to better control it, instead of it just almost always striking the same line a second time, but...Verzen2022-08-15T16:13:34ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesDubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#242022-08-15T16:06:07Z2022-08-15T16:06:07Z<p>I mean, yes, I did say Tremor needed to do more damage there. If it was a one-action overflow it would be fine of course, but that's true of so many of the damaging ones. So far only Aerial Boomerang and Shattered Mountain have enough output to be just fine as is I think.</p>
<p>On Aerial Boomerang - do you think end of next turn would be better for when it returns? It allows you to better control it, instead of it just almost always striking the same line a second time, but it also forces you to consider it when moving that turn.</p>I mean, yes, I did say Tremor needed to do more damage there. If it was a one-action overflow it would be fine of course, but that's true of so many of the damaging ones. So far only Aerial Boomerang and Shattered Mountain have enough output to be just fine as is I think.
On Aerial Boomerang - do you think end of next turn would be better for when it returns? It allows you to better control it, instead of it just almost always striking the same line a second time, but it also forces you to...Dubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)2022-08-15T16:06:07ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesRexAliquid (alias of KingOfAnything)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#232022-08-15T14:39:20Z2022-08-15T14:39:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Errenor wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Don't know where best to put it and not sure it deserves its own topic, but this bothers me a little:
</p>
evaluating the name of the IGNEOGENESIS feat I see that it should mean 'fire creation'. But the feat doesn't have anything to do with fire and even volcanoes really.
<br />
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/igneo </blockquote><p>If the rock you are moving is molten, the ability would be creating igneous rocks.Errenor wrote:Don't know where best to put it and not sure it deserves its own topic, but this bothers me a little:
evaluating the name of the IGNEOGENESIS feat I see that it should mean 'fire creation'. But the feat doesn't have anything to do with fire and even volcanoes really.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/igneo
If the rock you are moving is molten, the ability would be creating igneous rocks.RexAliquid (alias of KingOfAnything)2022-08-15T14:39:20ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesVerzenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#222022-08-15T14:33:46Z2022-08-15T14:33:46Z<p>The 1st level impulses should deal slightly more damage than the strongest cantrips</p>
<p>Let's use electric arc as the base.</p>
<p>Tremor should deal 1d4+con in a 5 ft burst instead of 2d4. 1d4+con = 6.5 dmg on avg per target. 2d4 = 5 dmg on avg per target. Furthermore, each lvl 1 overflow impulse should cost 1 action. Why 1 action? So I can gather elements, attack, then use my overflow in one turn. It would be just like attacking with a bow and using electric arc which literally anyone can do at level 1.</p>
<p>It shouldn't take a full round to do slightly less damage, albeit to a slightly bigger area than electric arc deals and still not get a chance to attack.</p>
<p>That gameplay is pretty undertuned.</p>The 1st level impulses should deal slightly more damage than the strongest cantrips
Let's use electric arc as the base.
Tremor should deal 1d4+con in a 5 ft burst instead of 2d4. 1d4+con = 6.5 dmg on avg per target. 2d4 = 5 dmg on avg per target. Furthermore, each lvl 1 overflow impulse should cost 1 action. Why 1 action? So I can gather elements, attack, then use my overflow in one turn. It would be just like attacking with a bow and using electric arc which literally anyone can do at...Verzen2022-08-15T14:33:46ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesGaulinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#212022-08-15T17:37:28Z2022-08-15T14:22:13Z<p>I do like some things about tremor, but there are some issues. The damage is low, yeah. This is offset by the aoe, difficult terrain and prone on crit failure (or that's the justification for the damage at least). In the playtesting I've done it can be problematic - the 5ft burst makes it difficult to use if you have melee allies (or yourself) trying to flank enemies, the difficult terrain can be moved or stepped out of pretty easily unless the enemy is cornered, and again the damage is low (and considering for quite a while it's the only damaging earth overflow ability it would be nice to do decent damage) and only hits earthbound enemies. </p>
<p>If earth had a good overflow damage ability early it wouldn't bother me, people could just take it as a utility/control/chip damage feat, but as is for those who want to see half decent damage it is lackluster.</p>I do like some things about tremor, but there are some issues. The damage is low, yeah. This is offset by the aoe, difficult terrain and prone on crit failure (or that's the justification for the damage at least). In the playtesting I've done it can be problematic - the 5ft burst makes it difficult to use if you have melee allies (or yourself) trying to flank enemies, the difficult terrain can be moved or stepped out of pretty easily unless the enemy is cornered, and again the damage is low...Gaulin2022-08-15T14:22:13ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesVerzenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#202022-08-15T14:26:42Z2022-08-15T14:17:34Z<p>It also takes 3 actions compared to Scatter scree 2.</p>
<p>With Scatter scree, I can attack with a bow for 1d8 damage + 1d4+3 using a fighter.</p>
<p>And if I hit one target, that's 10 damage using all 3 actions, twice as much as using 3 actions to deal 5 damage, for example.</p>It also takes 3 actions compared to Scatter scree 2.
With Scatter scree, I can attack with a bow for 1d8 damage + 1d4+3 using a fighter.
And if I hit one target, that's 10 damage using all 3 actions, twice as much as using 3 actions to deal 5 damage, for example.Verzen2022-08-15T14:17:34ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesVerzenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#192022-08-15T14:14:53Z2022-08-15T14:14:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Unicore wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Verzen wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Dubious Scholar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Part 2, covering earth.</p>
<p>Earth:
<br />
Level 1:
<br />
Geologic Attunement:
<br />
Okay, I've been corrected on this because I missed the difficult terrain part. This is good, for basically the reasons as the Air version. Tremorsense is neat, but without Aura Shaping it's limited. Turning off makes more sense when it also turns off the difficult terrain for you. Big difference is that this doesn't give difficult terrain in three dimensions, but that doesn't mean I don't like it.</p>
<p>Stepping Stones:
<br />
A clever mobility trick. Instant stairs or bridge, scales up with level. I think the size is perhaps a little conservative, and would start it one notch higher maybe, but.</p>
<p>Stone Shield:
<br />
A big old defense bonus. The hardness is very good. I think losing the gathered element is too much though as a penalty for the block? Maybe? ...I feel like spending two actions to recover from blocking is too harsh. I'd say you lose the shield but not the gathered element, personally (i.e. you keep hold of some fragments, enough to reform it again next turn)</p>
<p>Tremor:
<br />
So. 5 damage at level 1, 2.5 more every two levels. Same as Aerial Boomerang. A 5' burst is easy to place, may or may not hit two enemies. This is basically a slightly better Scatter Scree. The crit failure prone is cute, but won't happen a ton. I'm not sure the damage on this one holds up as well as Aerial Boomerang though, since it only gets the one hit in. This fails to do enough damage on account of the action cost. Easiest fix is to bump up the die to a d6, which would make it 7 damage, +3.5 per two, on par with Telekinetic Projectile. Alternatively, have it do something on a failed save, maybe flat-footed on fail, prone on crit fail. The higher chance of useful condition would make up for the damage easily.</p>
<p>Level 4:
<br />
Dust Storm:
<br />
Another aura. Standard concealment effects. Moving stuff 5' but not further from you is really iffy, I'd remove the restriction. As is though, I don't see this being useful</blockquote></blockquote>... </blockquote><p>Crit fails happen 5% of the time.
<p>Scatter scree is also 2d4 if we assumed one of the dice always landed on a 4. And at higher level, assumed the dice landed on a 7.. somehow.</p>Unicore wrote:Verzen wrote: Dubious Scholar wrote:Part 2, covering earth.
Earth:
Level 1:
Geologic Attunement:
Okay, I've been corrected on this because I missed the difficult terrain part. This is good, for basically the reasons as the Air version. Tremorsense is neat, but without Aura Shaping it's limited. Turning off makes more sense when it also turns off the difficult terrain for you. Big difference is that this doesn't give difficult terrain in three dimensions, but that doesn't mean I...Verzen2022-08-15T14:14:53ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: Evaluating the impulsesUnicorehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1b?Evaluating-the-impulses#182022-08-15T13:51:48Z2022-08-15T13:51:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Verzen wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Dubious Scholar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Part 2, covering earth.</p>
<p>Earth:
<br />
Level 1:
<br />
Geologic Attunement:
<br />
Okay, I've been corrected on this because I missed the difficult terrain part. This is good, for basically the reasons as the Air version. Tremorsense is neat, but without Aura Shaping it's limited. Turning off makes more sense when it also turns off the difficult terrain for you. Big difference is that this doesn't give difficult terrain in three dimensions, but that doesn't mean I don't like it.</p>
<p>Stepping Stones:
<br />
A clever mobility trick. Instant stairs or bridge, scales up with level. I think the size is perhaps a little conservative, and would start it one notch higher maybe, but.</p>
<p>Stone Shield:
<br />
A big old defense bonus. The hardness is very good. I think losing the gathered element is too much though as a penalty for the block? Maybe? ...I feel like spending two actions to recover from blocking is too harsh. I'd say you lose the shield but not the gathered element, personally (i.e. you keep hold of some fragments, enough to reform it again next turn)</p>
<p>Tremor:
<br />
So. 5 damage at level 1, 2.5 more every two levels. Same as Aerial Boomerang. A 5' burst is easy to place, may or may not hit two enemies. This is basically a slightly better Scatter Scree. The crit failure prone is cute, but won't happen a ton. I'm not sure the damage on this one holds up as well as Aerial Boomerang though, since it only gets the one hit in. This fails to do enough damage on account of the action cost. Easiest fix is to bump up the die to a d6, which would make it 7 damage, +3.5 per two, on par with Telekinetic Projectile. Alternatively, have it do something on a failed save, maybe flat-footed on fail, prone on crit fail. The higher chance of useful condition would make up for the damage easily.</p>
<p>Level 4:
<br />
Dust Storm:
<br />
Another aura. Standard concealment effects. Moving stuff 5' but not further from you is really iffy, I'd remove the restriction. As is though, I don't see this being useful without a way to negate the</blockquote>... </blockquote><p>Tremors isn't as bad as it is being made out to be. Scatter Scree requires two contiguous spaces, which means no diagonals. That limits the opportunity for it to actually hit two enemies and it makes the difficult terrain half as useful as tremors. Tremors also gets to knock prone on a critical failure which is a very good crit rider. All for 1.5 less average damage than Scatter Scree?
<p>If Gathering your element gets made half as interesting as another action (like you can stride half your speed or get some other passive ability while you spend the action to do it, I think Tremors is fine as it is. If gather element stays exactly the same and the damage on overflow impulses increases by 2, it is fine. With a 10ft emanation of difficult terrain from your aura (which I assume you would get started on round 1), you can easily steal an action or even two that you hit with this ability if you have positioned yourself well. I probably wouldn't bother using it unless I was in a position where I was pretty confident that the extra difficult terrain was enough to really cost a full action, which makes it a little situational, but that is mostly just because your earth blasts are nearly the same range and hit so hard, that it takes action denial, or severe pressure to act defensively to consider doing something else with your actions, at least for the first several levels.</p>Verzen wrote:Dubious Scholar wrote:Part 2, covering earth.
Earth:
Level 1:
Geologic Attunement:
Okay, I've been corrected on this because I missed the difficult terrain part. This is good, for basically the reasons as the Air version. Tremorsense is neat, but without Aura Shaping it's limited. Turning off makes more sense when it also turns off the difficult terrain for you. Big difference is that this doesn't give difficult terrain in three dimensions, but that doesn't mean I don't like
...Unicore2022-08-15T13:51:48Z