paizo.com Recent Posts in What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?paizo.com Recent Posts in What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?2022-08-14T19:37:31Z2022-08-14T19:37:31ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#302022-08-17T03:13:12Z2022-08-16T18:50:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Unicore wrote:</div><blockquote> Can't the Kineticist already make their familiar a water beetle or Fire Fly? </blockquote><p>I meant specific familiars like an Imp: I don't mind space for new material like a new specific familiar.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Unicore wrote:</div><blockquote>A familiar who can scout, walk into a trap, and then be resummoned next round is not something the game currently has. </blockquote><p>I don't think instance recovery of a dead familiar is in the cards. If all it took was to multiclass into Kineticist to pick up the ability, then you'd see wizards doing multiple final sacrifices a day...
<div class="messageboard-quotee">WWHsmackdown wrote:</div><blockquote> Lol I'd be a little salty if the kineticist could do special familiar stuff before the witch </blockquote><p>That too.Unicore wrote:Can't the Kineticist already make their familiar a water beetle or Fire Fly?
I meant specific familiars like an Imp: I don't mind space for new material like a new specific familiar. Unicore wrote:A familiar who can scout, walk into a trap, and then be resummoned next round is not something the game currently has.
I don't think instance recovery of a dead familiar is in the cards. If all it took was to multiclass into Kineticist to pick up the ability, then you'd see wizards...graystone2022-08-16T18:50:55ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?WWHsmackdownhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#292022-08-17T03:12:52Z2022-08-16T16:42:16Z<p>Lol I'd be a little salty if the kineticist could do special familiar stuff before the witch</p>Lol I'd be a little salty if the kineticist could do special familiar stuff before the witchWWHsmackdown2022-08-16T16:42:16ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Unicorehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#282022-08-16T16:34:01Z2022-08-16T16:34:01Z<p>Can't the Kineticist already make their familiar a water beetle or Fire Fly? </p>
<p>A familiar who can scout, walk into a trap, and then be resummoned next round is not something the game currently has.</p>Can't the Kineticist already make their familiar a water beetle or Fire Fly?
A familiar who can scout, walk into a trap, and then be resummoned next round is not something the game currently has.Unicore2022-08-16T16:34:01ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#272022-08-16T16:25:01Z2022-08-16T16:25:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Unicore wrote:</div><blockquote> But why do Kineticists need that? At higher levels they can basically bring elemental creatures on to the material plane at will already, and those creatures can make melee attacks to provide flanking. I just think it would be cool for the kineticist familiar to be more functionally different than other familiars, by having it exist more like a summoned elemental </blockquote><p>So we waste space to make an ability slightly different than one that exist because...? I'd rather see something new and interesting for the class.
<p>There are also familiar satchels [1 action to enter], the Familiar Tattoo item, sleeves of storage... IMO, I'd rather reflavor an existing ability/item than make a new one that is basically the same thing with the word/trait 'Kineticist' attached to it.</p>
<p>IMO, if they makes something new JUST for Kineticists, I'd rather see actually new stuff like new familiars and powers/abilities. Tiny Water beetles or Fire flies? Yes please. Have an ability that allows elemental familiars to gather elements for it's element as a free action 1/day? Great! A new way to summon/unsummon familiars... meh.</p>Unicore wrote:But why do Kineticists need that? At higher levels they can basically bring elemental creatures on to the material plane at will already, and those creatures can make melee attacks to provide flanking. I just think it would be cool for the kineticist familiar to be more functionally different than other familiars, by having it exist more like a summoned elemental
So we waste space to make an ability slightly different than one that exist because...? I'd rather see something new...graystone2022-08-16T16:25:01ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Unicorehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#262022-08-17T03:12:07Z2022-08-16T15:37:16Z<p>But why do Kineticists need that? At higher levels they can basically bring elemental creatures on to the material plane at will already, and those creatures can make melee attacks to provide flanking. I just think it would be cool for the kineticist familiar to be more functionally different than other familiars, by having it exist more like a summoned elemental</p>But why do Kineticists need that? At higher levels they can basically bring elemental creatures on to the material plane at will already, and those creatures can make melee attacks to provide flanking. I just think it would be cool for the kineticist familiar to be more functionally different than other familiars, by having it exist more like a summoned elementalUnicore2022-08-16T15:37:16ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#252022-08-16T17:06:33Z2022-08-16T15:20:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Unicore wrote:</div><blockquote> I kinda think it would be cool, since the kineticist is not a caster, if they could just at will resume on and dismiss their familiar. Maybe make it three actions and overflow to make it non trivial, but then they can just not worry about it getting attacked at all. It’s essence returns to and from their gate with ease. </blockquote><p>Tattoo Transformation is the power to hide away your familiar.Unicore wrote:I kinda think it would be cool, since the kineticist is not a caster, if they could just at will resume on and dismiss their familiar. Maybe make it three actions and overflow to make it non trivial, but then they can just not worry about it getting attacked at all. It’s essence returns to and from their gate with ease.
Tattoo Transformation is the power to hide away your familiar.graystone2022-08-16T15:20:09ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Unicorehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#242022-08-16T04:45:14Z2022-08-16T04:45:14Z<p>I kinda think it would be cool, since the kineticist is not a caster, if they could just at will resume on and dismiss their familiar. Maybe make it three actions and overflow to make it non trivial, but then they can just not worry about it getting attacked at all. It’s essence returns to and from their gate with ease.</p>I kinda think it would be cool, since the kineticist is not a caster, if they could just at will resume on and dismiss their familiar. Maybe make it three actions and overflow to make it non trivial, but then they can just not worry about it getting attacked at all. It’s essence returns to and from their gate with ease.Unicore2022-08-16T04:45:14ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#232022-08-17T00:11:35Z2022-08-16T02:52:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Xenocrat wrote:</div><blockquote> Well add more features, yes. People will never stop arguing over whether they actually benefit any characters. </blockquote><p>Well at least they will until we get some actual feedback on how they are meant to be run... Right after a breakdown of Recall Info though! ;)Xenocrat wrote:Well add more features, yes. People will never stop arguing over whether they actually benefit any characters.
Well at least they will until we get some actual feedback on how they are meant to be run... Right after a breakdown of Recall Info though! ;)graystone2022-08-16T02:52:22ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Xenocrathttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#222022-08-16T10:29:28Z2022-08-16T02:24:46Z<p>Well add more features, yes. People will never stop arguing over whether they actually benefit any characters.</p>Well add more features, yes. People will never stop arguing over whether they actually benefit any characters.Xenocrat2022-08-16T02:24:46ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Ravingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#212022-08-16T02:31:31Z2022-08-16T02:24:23Z<p>You can use Extract Element on it to Gather Element when it breaks your rules. ╰༼◉Д◕༽〜┣▇▇▇═── (;´Д`)</p>You can use Extract Element on it to Gather Element when it breaks your rules. ╰༼◉Д◕༽〜┣▇▇▇═── (;´Д`)Ravingdork2022-08-16T02:24:23ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Ediwirhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#202022-08-16T01:22:30Z2022-08-16T01:22:30Z<p>I'll add the note that Rage of Elements would not be the first book to add new familiar features to benefit more characters.</p>I'll add the note that Rage of Elements would not be the first book to add new familiar features to benefit more characters.Ediwir2022-08-16T01:22:30ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?aobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#192022-08-15T23:35:18Z2022-08-15T23:00:15Z<p>Fly speed helps to give more application to share senses. Can literally give you a bird's eye view.</p>Fly speed helps to give more application to share senses. Can literally give you a bird's eye view.aobst1282022-08-15T23:00:15ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#182022-08-15T22:56:13Z2022-08-15T22:56:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shinigami02 wrote:</div><blockquote> Well even if Whispering Wind scouting doesn't work out, a Deception-Skilled Fire Familiar with Share Senses Impersonating a fire in a lit fireplace is still a valid spying mechanism. The only flaw I can see in such a plan is if your GM is really against you and rules "The familiar uses your Constitution modifier to determine its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers" doesn't extend using Con to Skilled, but even then that can be worked around. </blockquote><p>After a minute without commands, it starts acting on its own being played by the DM. So it's utility isn't reliable. It could just as easily wander off to find something more interesting to burn. There is just WAY too much table variation to make any general assumption of usefulness for familiars past passive benefits.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">RexAliquid wrote:</div><blockquote> You don't need to Command your familiar in exploration mode, just talking to it with <i>message</i> is sufficient to communicate your intentions. It <i>is</i> a sentient ball of elements afterall. </blockquote><p>Nothing ever says they stop needing to be commanded or that the minion trait stops working. Activities are still counted in actions/round: they are based on the equivalent of 1 action per 6 seconds, or alternating between 2 actions per 12 seconds. As to being sentient... Well, they don't even have an Int score so how smart they are is questionable. They can't be that smart if they need commanded every 6 seconds.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">aobst128 wrote:</div><blockquote>I don't know about that. Says you project "your" senses into your familiar.</blockquote><p>It's a lot less useful with that reading, but I guess you can use it to see places your familiar can go that you can't like seeing what's under your couch without having to lift it up.Shinigami02 wrote:Well even if Whispering Wind scouting doesn't work out, a Deception-Skilled Fire Familiar with Share Senses Impersonating a fire in a lit fireplace is still a valid spying mechanism. The only flaw I can see in such a plan is if your GM is really against you and rules "The familiar uses your Constitution modifier to determine its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers" doesn't extend using Con to Skilled, but even then that can be worked around.
After a minute without...graystone2022-08-15T22:56:13ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?aobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#172022-08-15T22:35:12Z2022-08-15T22:35:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">aobst128 wrote:</div><blockquote> Familiar scouting is so weird. Like share senses would suggest using this to spy from a distance but with the command rules, it would only allow you to spy from around a corner. I'm risking this thread turning into another familiar rules so apologies. </blockquote>•shrug• I personally don't see anything to suggest that they can scout at all. All share senses says to me is that you can borrow senses you don't normally have: for instance, a human can get scent, darkvision or tremor sense not that they are meant to be use is situations where they are in different locations. </blockquote><p>I don't know about that. Says you project "your" senses into your familiar. Doesn't say you can use your familiars senses. But even with the limitations on command, having the tool to project your eyes and ears to your familiar is a decent utility for careful dungeon crawling. Presumably, you could make perception checks from your familiars location.graystone wrote:aobst128 wrote: Familiar scouting is so weird. Like share senses would suggest using this to spy from a distance but with the command rules, it would only allow you to spy from around a corner. I'm risking this thread turning into another familiar rules so apologies.
*shrug* I personally don't see anything to suggest that they can scout at all. All share senses says to me is that you can borrow senses you don't normally have: for instance, a human can get scent, darkvision or...aobst1282022-08-15T22:35:12ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?RexAliquid (alias of KingOfAnything)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#162023-08-14T08:30:15Z2022-08-15T22:32:29Z<p>You don't need to Command your familiar in exploration mode, just talking to it with <i>message</i> is sufficient to communicate your intentions. It <i>is</i> a sentient ball of elements afterall.</p>You don't need to Command your familiar in exploration mode, just talking to it with message is sufficient to communicate your intentions. It is a sentient ball of elements afterall.RexAliquid (alias of KingOfAnything)2022-08-15T22:32:29ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Shinigami02https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#152022-08-16T18:32:39Z2022-08-15T22:30:15Z<p>Well even if Whispering Wind scouting doesn't work out, a Deception-Skilled Fire Familiar with Share Senses Impersonating a fire in a lit fireplace is still a valid spying mechanism. The only flaw I can see in such a plan is if your GM is really against you and rules "The familiar uses your Constitution modifier to determine its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers" doesn't extend using Con to Skilled, but even then that can be worked around.</p>Well even if Whispering Wind scouting doesn't work out, a Deception-Skilled Fire Familiar with Share Senses Impersonating a fire in a lit fireplace is still a valid spying mechanism. The only flaw I can see in such a plan is if your GM is really against you and rules "The familiar uses your Constitution modifier to determine its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers" doesn't extend using Con to Skilled, but even then that can be worked around.Shinigami022022-08-15T22:30:15ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#142022-08-15T23:30:57Z2022-08-15T22:20:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">aobst128 wrote:</div><blockquote> Familiar scouting is so weird. Like share senses would suggest using this to spy from a distance but with the command rules, it would only allow you to spy from around a corner. I'm risking this thread turning into another familiar rules so apologies. </blockquote><p>•shrug• I personally don't see anything to suggest that they can scout at all. All share senses says to me is that you can borrow senses you don't normally have: for instance, a human can get scent, darkvision or tremor sense not that they are meant to be use is situations where they are in different locations.aobst128 wrote:Familiar scouting is so weird. Like share senses would suggest using this to spy from a distance but with the command rules, it would only allow you to spy from around a corner. I'm risking this thread turning into another familiar rules so apologies.
*shrug* I personally don't see anything to suggest that they can scout at all. All share senses says to me is that you can borrow senses you don't normally have: for instance, a human can get scent, darkvision or tremor sense not...graystone2022-08-15T22:20:33ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?aobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#132022-08-15T21:36:50Z2022-08-15T21:36:50Z<p>Familiar scouting is so weird. Like share senses would suggest using this to spy from a distance but with the command rules, it would only allow you to spy from around a corner. I'm risking this thread turning into another familiar rules so apologies.</p>Familiar scouting is so weird. Like share senses would suggest using this to spy from a distance but with the command rules, it would only allow you to spy from around a corner. I'm risking this thread turning into another familiar rules so apologies.aobst1282022-08-15T21:36:50ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#122022-08-15T21:16:50Z2022-08-15T21:16:50Z<p>The Message activity and the Command action aren't the same thing so you wouldn't be able to have a familiar scout any farther than normal.</p>
<p>Message
<br />
[Auditory, llusion, Linguistic, Mental]
<br />
Source Core Rulebook pg. 351
<br />
1 action</p>
<p>vs</p>
<p>Minion
<br />
Source Core Rulebook pg. 634
<br />
you issue a verbal command as a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits.</p>The Message activity and the Command action aren't the same thing so you wouldn't be able to have a familiar scout any farther than normal.
Message
[Auditory, llusion, Linguistic, Mental]
Source Core Rulebook pg. 351
1 action
vs
Minion
Source Core Rulebook pg. 634
you issue a verbal command as a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits.graystone2022-08-15T21:16:50ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?aobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#112022-08-15T21:13:25Z2022-08-15T21:13:25Z<p>If message is a means by which you can command a familiar, whisper on the wind has a lot of potential for familiar scouting.</p>If message is a means by which you can command a familiar, whisper on the wind has a lot of potential for familiar scouting.aobst1282022-08-15T21:13:25ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Captain Morganhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#102022-08-17T16:03:58Z2022-08-15T21:06:44Z<p>The value of familiars in general is subject to massive table variance. Don't take this option unless you've discussed familiars in advance with your GM.</p>The value of familiars in general is subject to massive table variance. Don't take this option unless you've discussed familiars in advance with your GM.Captain Morgan2022-08-15T21:06:44ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Shinigami02https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#92022-08-16T18:31:36Z2022-08-15T20:29:04Z<p>Unless the dungeon you're in is <i>truly</i> massive an Aerokineticist might be one of the few classes that can definitely use their Familiar to scout. After all, they get as a level 1 ability a Message that needs neither line of sight nor effect, and at level 8 has a max range of <i>a mile</i>. Slap some Share Senses on your little buddy in the morning, and use message to command it from a safe place while watching through its eyes. Heck, give it Share Senses and Speech and you can take advantage of the built-in response of Message to only turn on Share Senses when there's actually something to see. And all of this should be entirely within the vanilla options of what Familiars can do.</p>
<p>Also a Pyrokineticist's Elemental Familiar, as per the wording of the feat, both "appears to be... made of [fire]" and "immune to [fire]" so you could absolutely just park it in a burning fireplace to relatively easily bug a room. Or for that matter, what does a creature made of air look like?</p>Unless the dungeon you're in is truly massive an Aerokineticist might be one of the few classes that can definitely use their Familiar to scout. After all, they get as a level 1 ability a Message that needs neither line of sight nor effect, and at level 8 has a max range of a mile. Slap some Share Senses on your little buddy in the morning, and use message to command it from a safe place while watching through its eyes. Heck, give it Share Senses and Speech and you can take advantage of the...Shinigami022022-08-15T20:29:04ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Aristophaneshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#82022-08-16T19:38:35Z2022-08-15T20:04:37Z<p>I hope there might be Kineticist options like recall familiar. As a reaction, your familiar returns to your hand and becomes a gathered element.</p>
<p>Just spitballin'.</p>I hope there might be Kineticist options like recall familiar. As a reaction, your familiar returns to your hand and becomes a gathered element.
Just spitballin'.Aristophanes2022-08-15T20:04:37ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Xenocrathttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#72022-08-15T19:57:39Z2022-08-15T19:57:39Z<p>They're trying to make this class as popular as the witch, that's its utility.</p>They're trying to make this class as popular as the witch, that's its utility.Xenocrat2022-08-15T19:57:39ZRe: Forums: Kineticist Class: What's the utility of Elemental Familiar?Dubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o10?Whats-the-utility-of-Elemental-Familiar#62022-08-15T17:43:02Z2022-08-15T17:27:22Z<p>It's pretty easy to have a familiar just do Speech+Skilled and now it's a recall knowledge you can change every day. There's some useful options that work fine for kineticists.</p>It's pretty easy to have a familiar just do Speech+Skilled and now it's a recall knowledge you can change every day. There's some useful options that work fine for kineticists.Dubious Scholar (alias of Matthew Scheele)2022-08-15T17:27:22Z