Hot Take: Every level 23-24 creature should have a low or terrible save


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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This is PSA that out of bestiary 1-3 creatures(2 level 24, 4 level 23) neither of level 24 creatures have low/terrible saves and 2 out of 4 level 23 have low or lower save x'D And one of those is solar! Its really rare to fight good guys!

This has been from union of classes who rely on DCs xD

(level 23/24 are almost purely solobosses, so them having moderate or better saves is really painful for casters, but even worse for those who didn't max DCs :D

I'm mostly being facetious here, but yeah I beg mercy for those rare few who get to face enemies of that level xD)


I expect those who didn't max DC not being be competitive ( if they were, those who invested would be too good then).

For example, a magus or a war priest would be 4/5 points behind a pure spell caster.

A danava titan, for example, has 2 low saves +37 against a 45 DC. A tarrasque has a +37 reflex too, and it's a lvl 25 creature.

Seems quite ok to me ( 15% chances of critical success. If debuffed it can even be lower).

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Honestly though, Master profiency with +4 or +5 stat is actually quite decent vs terrible saves, but its not that bad vs low save either. With DC 41, the level 23 soloboss with low save still fails with roll of 6 vs it. It might be only 30% chance, but roughly one in three chance is going to happen at some point and there are quite many spells with really good failure effects.

Solobosses won't ever really fail with moderate or higher saves though vs master & +4 stat character ^^; But that is why I made this post in first place, them having at least one low (or worse) save means a lot more characters have chance to be useful xD

If you learn any interesting trivia from this thread, here is fun one: PF2e is good actually at keeping +4 stat plus master proficiency as competitive vs low saves of monsters. You obviously need better than that to stay competitive vs moderate saves and high as possible if you want chance vs high saves, but severe soloboss' low save failing with 25% chance ain't bad for multiclass archetype DC.


CorvusMask wrote:

(level 23/24 are almost purely solobosses, so them having moderate or better saves is really painful for casters, but even worse for those who didn't max DCs :D

I'm mostly being facetious here, but yeah I beg mercy for those rare few who get to face enemies of that level xD)

In my experience PCs of that level can meaningfully debuff enemies like that even with successful saves pretty reliably, Meaning at 20+ for enemies it is almost needed to keep the bosses functional as things tend to snowball fast where successful saves mean other PCs debuffs turn into failed saves or possibly just crit effects from strikes and such.

Have you been struggling with it in a real group or is it a general concern looking at the statblock or running test combats?

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The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

(level 23/24 are almost purely solobosses, so them having moderate or better saves is really painful for casters, but even worse for those who didn't max DCs :D

I'm mostly being facetious here, but yeah I beg mercy for those rare few who get to face enemies of that level xD)

In my experience PCs of that level can meaningfully debuff enemies like that even with successful saves pretty reliably, Meaning at 20+ for enemies it is almost needed to keep the bosses functional as things tend to snowball fast where successful saves mean other PCs debuffs turn into failed saves or possibly just crit effects from strikes and such.

Have you been struggling with it in a real group or is it a general concern looking at the statblock or running test combats?

Honestly, just concern at looking statblocks. Most of tables I run games for do the whole "max the legendary DC stat" thing xD That said, spellcaster players usually always have less fun when fighting vs bosses who only have moderate saves.

I'm mostly advocating it because I do like how math in 2e allows non optimal stat to be competitive, but don't like how some bestiary entries feel like monsters don't have real weaknesses.

I just don't like "high AC, High save, two moderate saves" design some monsters have going on x'D


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CorvusMask wrote:

I'm mostly advocating it because I do like how math in 2e allows non optimal stat to be competitive, but don't like how some bestiary entries feel like monsters don't have real weaknesses.

I just don't like "high AC, High save, two moderate saves" design some monsters have going on x'D

For the record I 100% agree with you at all pc levels prior to level 17ish.

Weaknesses are fun to target.

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