Elemental defense


Kineticist Class

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Anyone else miss this ability?

What would a pf2e version look like?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think the playtest version of this is the first level aura feats that create an area of difficult terrain. I would like part of that to be tied to the gather element action and innate instead of something they have to choose. Then it would get modified by higher level aura feats rather than superseded.


Due how PF2 works for AC and resistances the only space that the game have to Kineticist have some elemental defense is via Impulse.

These we have Stone Shield that works like rise shield/shield cantrip giving +2 circunstance to AC and Shield Block ability. It's a very good defensive ability because also gives Hardness 6 at level 1, making it a bit stronger than any level 1 shield. But it's level progression is impressive! +3 to hardness every 2 levels make's it have the best hardness of the game. Almost twice of the hardness of a sturdy shield (Sturdy Shields ends with Hardness 20, Shield cantrip ends with Hardness 25 but this Impulse ends with absurd 39 hardness!!!)! Also don't have the 10 minute cooldown of Shield cantrip allowing to be recasted in the next turn without restrictions. It's so good that's probably is wrong.
But all this advantage ends when we remember how bad is the action economy of the Kineticist. Basically being impossible to use it at same time with any Overflow Impulse. Yet is useful for Kineticists dedicated to use Earth Elemental Blast and auras only. Could be a good option for Dedicated Earth Kineticists with Stoke Element.

Another defensive Impulse option is Deflecting Wave. It's don't require the usage of action what's makes it imune to action economy problems, but requires that you stays in Water "stance" in order to cast it and don't work if you are flat-footed against the agressor. This Impulse gives the Kineticist a damage resistance equals to level against bludgeoning, slashing or double if the damage is acid or fire. Unfortunately it doesn't protect agains piercing damage (so no arrow/bullets and spears like protection). It's a good solution for Kineticists that want to use 2-actions Overflow Impulses but don't work for 3-action versions (because they break you gathered element) and works only whiles you have Water Gather Element at hand.

These are the currently Elemental Defenses in the class in PF2. That unfortunately also suffer too much from from the action economy hell and are earth and water only.


It's basically their resistance/immunity class feature.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:

Due how PF2 works for AC and resistances the only space that the game have to Kineticist have some elemental defense is via Impulse.

These we have Stone Shield that works like rise shield/shield cantrip giving +2 circunstance to AC and Shield Block ability. It's a very good defensive ability because also gives Hardness 6 at level 1, making it a bit stronger than any level 1 shield. But it's level progression is impressive! +3 to hardness every 2 levels make's it have the best hardness of the game. Almost twice of the hardness of a sturdy shield (Sturdy Shields ends with Hardness 20, Shield cantrip ends with Hardness 25 but this Impulse ends with absurd 39 hardness!!!)! Also don't have the 10 minute cooldown of Shield cantrip allowing to be recasted in the next turn without restrictions. It's so good that's probably is wrong.
But all this advantage ends when we remember how bad is the action economy of the Kineticist. Basically being impossible to use it at same time with any Overflow Impulse. Yet is useful for Kineticists dedicated to use Earth Elemental Blast and auras only. Could be a good option for Dedicated Earth Kineticists with Stoke Element.

Another defensive Impulse option is Deflecting Wave. It's don't require the usage of action what's makes it imune to action economy problems, but requires that you stays in Water "stance" in order to cast it and don't work if you are flat-footed against the agressor. This Impulse gives the Kineticist a damage resistance equals to level against bludgeoning, slashing or double if the damage is acid or fire. Unfortunately it doesn't protect agains piercing damage (so no arrow/bullets and spears like protection). It's a good solution for Kineticists that want to use 2-actions Overflow Impulses but don't work for 3-action versions (because they break you gathered element) and works only whiles you have Water Gather Element at hand.

These are the currently Elemental Defenses in the class in PF2. That unfortunately also suffer too...

2 actions for a shield block is incredibly bad, actually.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
It's basically their resistance/immunity class feature.

Literally not the same.

At all.


It's an elemental defense

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
It's an elemental defense

Technically correct in the vonacular, but not in the context


At that point why is any version of burn trying to be entertained but the true original version. It's not really burn because it's not the same.

2e kineticist isn't a kineticist because it isn't 1e version.

It all makes sense now.


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Verzen wrote:
2 actions for a shield block is incredibly bad, actually.

But its better than the 2 actions to 1 equip a spare shield, and 2, raise a shield, becouse you don't need to spend gold for either shield. sure, its worse against smaller hits that wouldn't break the shield, but much better against the bigger hits due to the higher hardness. Plus, you get +2 to fort saves, which is very useful.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:

At that point why is any version of burn trying to be entertained but the true original version. It's not really burn because it's not the same.

2e kineticist isn't a kineticist because it isn't 1e version.

It all makes sense now.

Lmao

So why can't earth get assume earths mantle at level 1 and have it progress over time? That way characters could build for it.

Why can't fire get a built in damage shield? Water get concealment? Air get a special reaction or something and they all improve over time? Why can't that occur?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Pronate11 wrote:
Verzen wrote:
2 actions for a shield block is incredibly bad, actually.
But its better than the 2 actions to 1 equip a spare shield, and 2, raise a shield, becouse you don't need to spend gold for either shield. sure, its worse against smaller hits that wouldn't break the shield, but much better against the bigger hits due to the higher hardness. Plus, you get +2 to fort saves, which is very useful.

In terms of action economy, it's still worse. You're spending your precious gather element for a big boom to block damage. Any creature could effectively prevent you from using an aoe by just attack you.


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Verzen wrote:
Pronate11 wrote:
Verzen wrote:
2 actions for a shield block is incredibly bad, actually.
But its better than the 2 actions to 1 equip a spare shield, and 2, raise a shield, becouse you don't need to spend gold for either shield. sure, its worse against smaller hits that wouldn't break the shield, but much better against the bigger hits due to the higher hardness. Plus, you get +2 to fort saves, which is very useful.
In terms of action economy, it's still worse. You're spending your precious gather element for a big boom to block damage. Any creature could effectively prevent you from using an aoe by just attack you.

Then just get hit. You have that choice. You aren't forced to block. at worst, you have +2 to fort saves verses a normal shield, and at best you can prevent a bunch of damage. there is no downside other than one 1st level feat, and you have a bunch of those.


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Verzen wrote:
2 actions for a shield block is incredibly bad, actually.

Not exactly. If are ignoring that if it was a Shield Cantrip is would simply unable to recast it. So it's already better than a Shield Cantrip. If was a shield you would risk broken it being unable to use it again. So if you consider it use a Gather Element action again to being able use a Stone Shield again isn't bad.

Also as I said Stone Shield cannot be used in conjunction with Overflow impulses. So this build is for Earth Element Blasts only, and Element Blasts suffers MAP, só loose a second Blast or a Stoke Element as trade to rise a Shield Block again isn't a big problem.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:
Verzen wrote:
2 actions for a shield block is incredibly bad, actually.

Not exactly. If are ignoring that if it was a Shield Cantrip is would simply unable to recast it. So it's already better than a Shield Cantrip. If was a shield you would risk broken it being unable to use it again. So if you consider it use a Gather Element action again to being able use a Stone Shield again isn't bad.

Also as I said Stone Shield cannot be used in conjunction with Overflow impulses. So this build is for Earth Element Blasts only, and Element Blasts suffers MAP, só loose a second Blast or a Stoke Element as trade to rise a Shield Block again isn't a big problem.

Shield cantrip allows 1 action to "raise a shield"

I simply think that the action economy is far too restrictive with stone shield for it to be any fun.


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Verzen wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Verzen wrote:
2 actions for a shield block is incredibly bad, actually.

Not exactly. If are ignoring that if it was a Shield Cantrip is would simply unable to recast it. So it's already better than a Shield Cantrip. If was a shield you would risk broken it being unable to use it again. So if you consider it use a Gather Element action again to being able use a Stone Shield again isn't bad.

Also as I said Stone Shield cannot be used in conjunction with Overflow impulses. So this build is for Earth Element Blasts only, and Element Blasts suffers MAP, só loose a second Blast or a Stoke Element as trade to rise a Shield Block again isn't a big problem.

Shield cantrip allows 1 action to "raise a shield"

I simply think that the action economy is far too restrictive with stone shield for it to be any fun.

yes, but what happens when you block with the shield cantrip? how many actions is it to raise the shield again? I think you'll find that stone shield is much better from the action economy front. 2 actions vs 3,000. and again, you don't need to block. one action for 2 ac and +2 to fort saves is very, very good on its own.


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Pronate11 wrote:
Verzen wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Verzen wrote:
2 actions for a shield block is incredibly bad, actually.

Not exactly. If are ignoring that if it was a Shield Cantrip is would simply unable to recast it. So it's already better than a Shield Cantrip. If was a shield you would risk broken it being unable to use it again. So if you consider it use a Gather Element action again to being able use a Stone Shield again isn't bad.

Also as I said Stone Shield cannot be used in conjunction with Overflow impulses. So this build is for Earth Element Blasts only, and Element Blasts suffers MAP, só loose a second Blast or a Stoke Element as trade to rise a Shield Block again isn't a big problem.

Shield cantrip allows 1 action to "raise a shield"

I simply think that the action economy is far too restrictive with stone shield for it to be any fun.

yes, but what happens when you block with the shield cantrip? how many actions is it to raise the shield again? I think you'll find that stone shield is much better from the action economy front. 2 actions vs 3,000. and again, you don't need to block. one action for 2 ac and +2 to fort saves is very, very good on its own.

Better than a shield cantrip, even if you don't block with either.


It's not real a elemental defense but others "defensive" abilities from other elements are:

Wings of Air: Stays of range is one of the best ways to protect yourself and stay of range flying make's you imune to all non-flying melee creatures. OK, isn't far from perfect because it's situational (you need to be in a open area or in high ceiling place and mostly opponents cannot do ranged attack (yet if they can players with AoO will like they trying) or fly) but it's still a good strategy.

LvL 10 and 16 Clear As Air: Grants that you char will be concealed. So grants you CD 5 failure flat checks as pseudo defense that cannot be canceled by mostly eyes abilities (most of them already see you Concealed so don't make difference, the real problem are saves that ignore this) and at level 16 due the difficult of Counteract checks being based on your level it will difficult to some opponent see and focus on you, only See Invisibility that's still see you Concealed.

Verzen wrote:
Shield cantrip allows 1 action to "raise a shield"

Stone Shield too. It's a rare only 1-action Impulse.


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Well at level 1 Earth gets a shield, water gets a (limited damage types) Resistance reaction, and while they're a bit more of a stretch Fire gets Aura of Fire/Cold Resist and Air gets either "never worry about Fall Damage again" or Aura of Enemy-only Difficult Terrain.

EDIT: And apparently this thread blew up since I first opened it...

EDIT 2: And at higher level there's the various Wall impulses, they're mostly pretty good defenses.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Shinigami02 wrote:

Well at level 1 Earth gets a shield, water gets a (limited damage types) Resistance reaction, and while they're a bit more of a stretch Fire gets Aura of Fire/Cold Resist and Air gets either "never worry about Fall Damage again" or Aura of Enemy-only Difficult Terrain.

EDIT: And apparently this thread blew up since I first opened it...

EDIT 2: And at higher level there's the various Wall impulses, they're mostly pretty good defenses.

Not the same.

I am talking about this

Defense: A geokineticist’s defensive wild talent is flesh of stone.

Flesh of Stone
Element(s) earth; Type defense (Su); Level —; Burn 0

Your skin hardens like stone, dampening the impact of most attacks. You gain DR 1/adamantine. This DR increases by 1 for every 2 kineticist levels you possess beyond 2nd. By accepting 1 point of burn, you can increase the DR by 1 until the next time your burn is removed, to a maximum DR equal to your kineticist level. Whenever you accept burn while using an earth wild talent, the energy surging through you causes your damage reduction to change from DR/adamantine to DR/— for 1 round.

You can dismiss and restore this effect as an immediate action.

or

Defense: A pyrokineticist’s defensive wild talent is searing flesh.

Searing Flesh
Element(s) fire; Type defense (Su); Level —; Burn 0

Your body becomes painfully hot. Whenever a creature hits you with a natural attack or an unarmed strike, that creature takes 1 point of fire damage per 4 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 1 point of fire damage). A creature in a grapple with you takes double this amount of damage at the end of each of its turns.

Weapons that strike you also take this damage, though the damage is unlikely to penetrate the weapon’s hardness. By accepting 1 point of burn, you can increase this damage by 1 point per 4 kineticist levels you possess until the next time your burn is removed. You can increase the damage in this way up to seven times.

Whenever you accept burn while using a fire wild talent, the surging flame causes your searing flesh to deal double its current amount of damage for 1 round (a creature in a grapple with you takes a total of four times as much damage as normal). You can dismiss or restore this effect as an immediate action.

But built in a way for PF2E in some way.

Some passive that deals with your element that's always active.


I think you won't see this in 2e Kineticist.

Flesh to Stone is a immediate action switcher that's enable/disables DR and I also we won't see burn mechanics like this. I think that the designers don't want this because is like a must have action. Instead they prefer to do this as reactions.

Searing Flesh is basically now the Desert Shimmer aura.

Sczarni

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YuriP wrote:

I think you won't see this in 2e Kineticist.

Flesh to Stone is a immediate action switcher that's enable/disables DR and I also we won't see burn mechanics like this. I think that the designers don't want this because is like a must have action. Instead they prefer to do this as reactions.

Searing Flesh is basically now the Desert Shimmer aura.

They can do something similar. Not that 'exact' mechanism but like.. for example

Earth could be Assume Earths Mantle at level 1 and it gradually gets better.

Fire could be a damage shield of 1 fire damage or so.

etc etc


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Unicore wrote:
Better than a shield cantrip, even if you don't block with either.

But also Shield cantrip almost never provokes AoO. But both Stone shield and element restoration does.


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Errenor wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Better than a shield cantrip, even if you don't block with either.
But also Shield cantrip almost never provokes AoO. But both Stone shield and element restoration does.

it also gives +2 to fort saves and +2 to your fort DC's


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Errenor wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Better than a shield cantrip, even if you don't block with either.
But also Shield cantrip almost never provokes AoO. But both Stone shield and element restoration does.

Here you have a point. (The Impulse trait having concentrate and manipulate traits makes it worse and more limited than a spell)

I hope they fix this in the final version.
But at last for not much long ranged attacks it's still useful.


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Having elemental defense be a thing would be great. Mainly because it would remove a lot of duplicate effects and needless action costs.

But they are not likely to do that. At the very least it would be great if auras of the same element were not mutually exclusive by being effectively the same thing but better.


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It would be nice if you could have multiple auras up at once, at least if they are the same element. It would also be nice if auras could be up all the time, out of combat too, instead of only lasting to the end of the encounter.


YuriP wrote:

I think you won't see this in 2e Kineticist.

Flesh to Stone is a immediate action switcher that's enable/disables DR and I also we won't see burn mechanics like this. I think that the designers don't want this because is like a must have action. Instead they prefer to do this as reactions.

Searing Flesh is basically now the Desert Shimmer aura.

Flesh to Stone is literally just Barbarian reaistance. That's it, nothing more nothing less. Are you saying that Barbarian's getting resistance is so broken they should get a damage nerf?

Yes, Dessert Shimmer Aura would be the old Searing Flesh.

Air used to get passive concealment vs ranged physical attacks due to the winds pushing away projectiles. Literally just remove invisibility and give them a DC 5 flat check to be hit by physical ranged attacks.

Water was a passive floating armor/shield. Oh look its the thing that earth is now getting, except because its water, you can just say that it a +2 circumstance to AC. No need to worry about hardness scaling too high.

You are worried about them being passives? Make them only active while your element is gathered, now you can increase the power of overflow since it cost your defenses until your next turn.

***************

About universal, that gate is weird and throws way too many wrench into the balance of the class. I swear it feels like a bunch of stuff is balanced around that and chain blast.


Can you get the stone shield through the kineticist dedication?


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Martialmasters wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Better than a shield cantrip, even if you don't block with either.
But also Shield cantrip almost never provokes AoO. But both Stone shield and element restoration does.
it also gives +2 to fort saves and +2 to your fort DC's

By rules those are technically already the same thing:

Core Rulebook pg. 448 wrote:
Sometimes you'll need to know your DC for a given saving throw. The DC for a saving throw is 10 + the total modifier for that saving throw.

I assume it's just reminder text in this case.


HumbleGamer wrote:
Can you get the stone shield through the kineticist dedication?

If they remove manipulate trait, probably yes. It's a good alternative to Shield cantrip for 2H chars.

If they don't so no.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
HumbleGamer wrote:
Can you get the stone shield through the kineticist dedication?

Technically yes but shield block takes 2 actions then instead of 1.


A character using furry of blows may benefit from having a good shield block per round ( a Monk with wholeness of body and this shield block might resist for several rounds alone).


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Okay I felt like I had an actual decent idea.

So people want elemental defense back, con to matter and gather to not suck. How about this ?

Elemental defense lvl 1 feature:

Your constant exposure to the elemental realms has granted you (un)natural defenses.

Starting at first level you gain the following benefits:

You can choose to use your constitution modifier instead of your dexterity modifier when using light or no armor.

In addition whenever you have an element gathered, you gain the following benefits depending on the element gathered:

Earth:
You gain DR equal to X of Z

Fire:
Enemies that hit you with any melee weapon or attempts a melee action with the strike trait against you take fire damage equal to X of Z

Air: Enemies that attempts to hit you with a ranged spell or attack takes a - X penalty to their attack rolls

Water: you gain fast healing equal to X of Y.

So that's the baseline idea. Con now matters, armor issues are mitigated and gather now adds a cool buff, making it more akin to panache or conflux spells than a sheer reload.

Further feats could improve the numerical values or add additional effects.

Different gates could behave differently. Dedicated could get a higher value, dual could maybe have 2 effects active with a reduced value, and universal have the benefit of choosing between the baselines ?

It feels like a way to solve multiple issues at once, or am I trippin' ?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Lollerabe wrote:

Okay I felt like I had an actual decent idea.

So people want elemental defense back, con to matter and gather to not suck. How about this ?

Elemental defense lvl 1 feature:

Your constant exposure to the elemental realms has granted you (un)natural defenses.

Starting at first level you gain the following benefits:

You can choose to use your constitution modifier instead of your dexterity modifier when using light or no armor.

In addition whenever you have an element gathered, you gain the following benefits depending on the element gathered:

Earth:
You gain DR equal to X of Z

Fire:
Enemies that hit you with any melee weapon or attempts a melee action with the strike trait against you take fire damage equal to X

Air: Enemies that attempts to hit you with a ranged spell or attack takes a - X penalty to their attack rolls

Water: you gain fast healing equal to X of Y.

So that's the baseline idea. Con now matters, armor issues are mitigated and gather now adds a cool buff, making it more akin to panache or Cascade than a sheer reload.

Further feats could improve the numerical values or add additional effects.

Different gates could behave differently. Dedicated could get a higher value, dual could maybe have 2 effects active with a reduced value, and universal have the benefit of choosing between the baselines ?

It feels like a way to solve multiple issues at once, or am I trippin' ?

I'd support this.


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YuriP wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Can you get the stone shield through the kineticist dedication?

If they remove manipulate trait, probably yes. It's a good alternative to Shield cantrip for 2H chars.

If they don't so no.

Except it doesn't work for 2H characters, because it's still Gathered Element, and as per Gather Element, any time you have element Gathered, your hand is occupied.


You are right. I forgot about this need to have the element at hand


Bump for the suggestion.


Lollerabe wrote:

Okay I felt like I had an actual decent idea.

So people want elemental defense back, con to matter and gather to not suck. How about this ?

Elemental defense lvl 1 feature:

Your constant exposure to the elemental realms has granted you (un)natural defenses.

Starting at first level you gain the following benefits:

You can choose to use your constitution modifier instead of your dexterity modifier when using light or no armor.

In addition whenever you have an element gathered, you gain the following benefits depending on the element gathered:

Earth:
You gain DR equal to X of Z

Fire:
Enemies that hit you with any melee weapon or attempts a melee action with the strike trait against you take fire damage equal to X of Z

Air: Enemies that attempts to hit you with a ranged spell or attack takes a - X penalty to their attack rolls

Water: you gain fast healing equal to X of Y.

So that's the baseline idea. Con now matters, armor issues are mitigated and gather now adds a cool buff, making it more akin to panache or conflux spells than a sheer reload.

Further feats could improve the numerical values or add additional effects.

Different gates could behave differently. Dedicated could get a higher value, dual could maybe have 2 effects active with a reduced value, and universal have the benefit of choosing between the baselines ?

It feels like a way to solve multiple issues at once, or am I trippin' ?

That actually sounds like a really good solution to me. I'd totally be down for that.


So long as that doesn't mean universalist gets all 4 when they gather all 4 with that feat.


Thanks for the feedback.

No, the idea would be that the universalists could choose the effect, if they for what reason had more than 1 element gathered.
Not benefit from multiple. That would be dual gates thing.

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