There's no reason to not take the universal gate.


Kineticist Class

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

I think the whole class only has 2 level 2 feats.

I strongly suspect the reason that the playtest has only 2 new feats you can take at level 2 is to see what Archetypes people are going to try to pair this with, to see if it breaks anything.

Also the level 1 feats/impulse powers are very good, especially for power-starved universal, so if not archetyping taking a level 1 power is reasonable.


Kind of pointless for dedicated though because they can just take all four of their level 1 feats at level 1.


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Guntermench wrote:
Kind of pointless for dedicated though because they can just take all four of their level 1 feats at level 1.

True, though I suspect quite a few builds are also going to want Elemental Weapon and/or Flexible blasts.

But honestly, for literally any melee kineticist I want medium armor, so Sentinel at level 2 is looking pretty much mandatory.


I'm also just amazed they made it 6th level. It's a 1st level feat you can use somewhat more often at half power. I guess because half of 1 is 1 in terms of damage?

But at 6th you start getting a second Overflow option so why have it in a more congested spot?


Thaago wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Kind of pointless for dedicated though because they can just take all four of their level 1 feats at level 1.

True, though I suspect quite a few builds are also going to want Elemental Weapon and/or Flexible blasts.

But honestly, for literally any melee kineticist I want medium armor, so Sentinel at level 2 is looking pretty much mandatory.

Yeah, any Str build is going to spent feats on armor proficiencies.


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It's not even just the feats. Universal gets a lot more raw utility, too.

- Just gather. Gathered fire sheds light like a torch (and can probably be used to ignite and/or cook things). Gathered water is fresh and drinkable and can probably be used to clean stuff. Gathered air could reasonably be used for cantrippy wind/breeze effects, and you could certainly argue that you should be able to breathe it if you have to.
- A bunch of different class features. Adapt Element, Extract Element, Pure Adaptation, Elemental Resistance and Elemental Immunity all benefit from the flexibility that Universal brings.
- A couple of the general feats. Voice of Elements and Command Elemental, in particular.


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graystone wrote:
Thaago wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Kind of pointless for dedicated though because they can just take all four of their level 1 feats at level 1.

True, though I suspect quite a few builds are also going to want Elemental Weapon and/or Flexible blasts.

But honestly, for literally any melee kineticist I want medium armor, so Sentinel at level 2 is looking pretty much mandatory.

Yeah, any Str build is going to spent feats on armor proficiencies.

The question I ask myself is... Should it be this way?


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No, it shouldn't. The class should have medium armor by default.


Sentinel seems pretty mediocre because you don't get your first proficiency boost from armor until level 13. So "any other means of getting medium armor proficiency" is better. Like "be a versatile human" or "ask your GM if we can start at level 3".

Since if you start with a Dex of 12 (totally doable with a Str 16 Con 18 build), you can get Dex 16 before you get expert light armor, then you just retrain out of the medium armor proficiency. I think this works better than "spending feats on Sentinel."


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It probably should for consistency, I think every class but Monk(and Bard maybe) that has an option for a STR build has at least medium proficiency. But they seem to have just ported over the proficiencies from 1e, simple weapons and light armour and that might be some lightly armour flavour they're trying to keep.


Anyone else take and Elemental Wisp familiar on their dedicated gate kineticist? Only a +1 damage bump, but it applies to everything thing you do and doesn't cost actions.


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The wisp might be a good call.


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Thaago wrote:
No, it shouldn't. The class should have medium armor by default.

One alternative solution to armors would be down level of Assume Earth’s Mantle to 1 and turn it in something similar to Drakeheart Mutagen . This would solve the AC problem for STR melee without break the thematic.


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YuriP wrote:
Thaago wrote:
No, it shouldn't. The class should have medium armor by default.
On alternative solution to armors would be down level of Assume Earth’s Mantle to 1 and turn it in something similar to Drakeheart Mutagen . This would solve the AC problem for STR melee without break the thematic.

That would solve it for earth kineticists anyways. Water could have ice armor or something.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:

It's not even just the feats. Universal gets a lot more raw utility, too.

- Just gather. Gathered fire sheds light like a torch (and can probably be used to ignite and/or cook things). Gathered water is fresh and drinkable and can probably be used to clean stuff. Gathered air could reasonably be used for cantrippy wind/breeze effects.
- A bunch of different class features. Adapt Element, Extract Element, Pure Adaptation, Elemental Resistance and Elemental Immunity all benefit from the flexibility that Universal brings.
- A couple of the general feats. Voice of Elements and Command Elemental, in particular.

I didn't think of that. I was stuck with like, attack impulse feats.

Scarab Sages

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aobst128 wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Thaago wrote:
No, it shouldn't. The class should have medium armor by default.
On alternative solution to armors would be down level of Assume Earth’s Mantle to 1 and turn it in something similar to Drakeheart Mutagen . This would solve the AC problem for STR melee without break the thematic.
That would solve it for earth kineticists anyways. Water could have ice armor or something.

hmm, that sounds familiar.


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I think as far as subclasses go, there's a lot of room to make each dedicated element more interesting and potent than the more versatile dual and universalists. Extra damage is a little plain. Passive benefits would be fun. Water could get a bonus to speeds, earth could get athletics support, fire could get better reflex like flame oracle. It could also be tied to a unique gather action that might be exclusive to dedicated element. Dual could pick one and universalist doesn't get one.


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I think having sketched out a few kineticists, universal gate is the one I can't figure out how to build a character around. Then again, I hate preparing spells so "pick a 1st, 8th, and 14th level impulse out of all of them" is just unfun.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think having sketched out a few kineticists, universal gate is the one I can't figure out how to build a character around. Then again, I hate preparing spells so "pick a 1st, 8th, and 14th level impulse out of all of them" is just unfun.

They are really starved for feats especially considering that most of the time you can't use them simultaneously. So either you don't have feats for some elements at all and specialize (why are you universalist then?) or you have like one or two in all elements and need to juggle them around all the time with all the action costs. Maybe this actually works, I don't know yet. Let's see.

Dark Archive

What if you always start with one Gate and other Gates are simply added as class feats? By level 12 you could be a single Gate user with 5 feats to refine it, or a 6 Gate monster with little control, or anything in between. That would also solve the problem of the Dedicated bonus impulses all being 1st level.


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Maybe, but they're already a ton of feats.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:
Thaago wrote:
No, it shouldn't. The class should have medium armor by default.
One alternative solution to armors would be down level of Assume Earth’s Mantle to 1 and turn it in something similar to Drakeheart Mutagen . This would solve the AC problem for STR melee without break the thematic.

Okay new idea for the Elemental Defense kind of idea.

Air gets a speed boost, still kind of like the idea of implementing some Fair Winds stuff. Possibly Cover or Greater Cover against ranged attacks. IF so then maybe Dedicated gets Greater Cover and Dual gets regular Cover? If so maybe have them start at regular and Lesser and scale up to Greater and regular at 10th or so? Also maybe give immunity to gas/stench based attacks?

Earth gets Assume Earth's Mantle at 1st, with just the armor someoneable at will and worn for as long as they want, scaling to gain the other abilities over the next 13 levels. Maybe also throw in some Resistance to Physical damage (bypassed by Adamantine?) maybe equal to 1/4th or 1/2th character level? Perhaps Dedicated gets 1/2th and Dual gets 1/4th?

Fire gets an aura of damage and has a damage shield. Say a 10ft aura, scaling in size at the same times Shape Aura does, that does 1 fire damage per round to creatures other than you in the aura at the start of their turn or when they enter the aura, and taking Shape Aura allows allies to not take the damage. Also anyone within the closer half of your aura that attacks you takes 1d6 fire damage. So within 5ft of you at 1st level. Have the damage from starting/entering your aura, and the d6 for attacking you scale as you level. Maybe every 2 or 3 levels. Perhaps Dedicated gets 1/2th level and Dual gets 1/3rd or 1/4th. Not sure on the exact levels.

Water gets an aura like fire's, same dimensions, same increases in area, but not damaging. Anyone other than yourself, and with Shape Aura your allies, have Difficult Terrain in your aura. If they get within 5ft of you, or within the closer half of your aura as your aura increases beyond 10ft, they become Slowed 1. Hmm for the Dedicated/Dual switch maybe Dedicated gets Greater Difficult Terrain eventually?

These are some ideas. Not sure exactly what to do about Universalist though. Dedicated and Dual both pick an element or two and could easily have those abilities at all times, even when not Elementally Gathered. One more powerful ability or two weaker abilities can work. But can't go much weaker for a Universalist to take 4 or 6. Unless Universalist gained the weaker benefits for them when they have the element gathered and nothing when not gathered.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I would probably limit to just Air, Earth, and Warer.

Air: +AC vs Range
Earth: Temp HP (think ablative armor)
Water: +AC while moving


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
SaveVersus wrote:

I would probably limit to just Air, Earth, and Warer.

Air: +AC vs Range
Earth: Temp HP (think ablative armor)
Water: +AC while moving

Why limit to just those 3 elements? What does Fire, currently often considered the weakest element in the current playtest, get then?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Doesn't have to be those three specifically, but I wouldn't give every element a "defensive"... uhh, element.

I know that helps dedicated gates, but if they could split and limit the number of options, they could focus on making them synergize so omni gated people could be a beast in burst moments.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think a lot of what people were looking for was something that was like the old Elemental Defense where every element had something going for them. In 1e they got them at 2nd level and they increased generally as you leveled with greater increases from Burn, but we don't have Burn in 2e. In 1e everyone started with 1 element and could branch out to a 2nd at 7th, and could then spend a feat to grab the Elemental Defense of the 2nd Elemental Defense.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ryuujin-sama wrote:
I think a lot of what people were looking for was something that was like the old Elemental Defense where every element had something going for them. In 1e they got them at 2nd level and they increased generally as you leveled with greater increases from Burn, but we don't have Burn in 2e. In 1e everyone started with 1 element and could branch out to a 2nd at 7th, and could then spend a feat to grab the Elemental Defense of the 2nd Elemental Defense.

Yeah, I don't have a dog in this fight because I didn't play a Kineticist in 1e.

But from a design perspective, it just feel unimaginative if every element is just like every other one.

They already have Elemental Resistance at level 3. They could easily add an "Elemental Shield" Feat which could springboard off Elemental Resistance. Give it the Overflow trait and you get some boost based on the element spent... but that's where you start to get iffy.

Your example for Air, +AC from ranged attacks, is very easy to imagine. Metal could give you an AC reaction, like a shield. That's easy to imagine too. The problem starts when you try and shoehorn the other elements into this "defensive" perspective.
Take Fire, for instance; the easiest thing to imagine is that it burns the opponent, but that's not really defensive. That's more "reactively offensive."
The example I gave for Water, +AC when you move, isn't really thematic. It's the "idea of water" (water flow around things), but doesn't have much else to do with it.
The only thing I can think of for Wood is a Naruto-style Substitution Jutsu thing and that isn't thematically wood either.

So I suggested limiting what elements get what in order to 1) keep things collectively thematic, instead of varying levels of thematic to "in the spirit of" and 2) to entice and reward players for expanding their Gates.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

In 1e not all Elemental Defenses were defensive in the way you are thinking.

Air had a 20%, base, miss chance vs ranged attacks. Scaling by 5% a level or by 5% per point of Burn invested in it, to a maximum of 75%. I think for 2e various levels of cover vs ranged would work better.

Earth had DR/adamantine equal to half their level, and could invest Burn 1 for 1 to up this to their level. So resist Physical bypassed by Adamantine. Maybe have it scale like Barbarian's Raging Resistance of 3+Con mod.

Fire dealt 1 damage per 4 levels, minimum 1, and could pump that with Burn up to 7 times to 8 damage every 4 levels. This damage is done to those hitting them with unarmed or natural attacks. In 2e I would have this effect all melee attacks directed at you. Damage should probably be better than 1/4th level but maybe not as good as twice level. Maybe implement damage dice instead of a flat number.

Water granted either a +4 armor bonus or +2 shield bonus. Either bonus increased by +1 every 4 levels. It could also be pumped up an additional 50% with Burn 1 for 1. The scaling goes too high for 2e but could just provide an item or circumstance bonus to their unarmored AC.


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One thing about the elemental defenses in PF1 is that they weren't balanced against each other, but the whole element was supposed to be. Like fire had the most damage and overall combat utility, but had weak defense and utility. Aether had the weakest offense, but incredible utility and a very strong defense, etc.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
SaveVersus wrote:

Doesn't have to be those three specifically, but I wouldn't give every element a "defensive"... uhh, element.

I know that helps dedicated gates, but if they could split and limit the number of options, they could focus on making them synergize so omni gated people could be a beast in burst moments.

Call it, "elemental incarnation" then

Earth and metal are defensive.

Fire and water more offensive.

Wood, and air is more utility based.

Maybe my air incarnation allows me to literally push people around as a free action on my turn, fort to resist it.

Wood allows me to immobilize with entangling vines.

Fire allows me to burn things that attack me are are near me.

Water provides an aoo if someone strikes me.

Earth provides DR. Metal provides status bonus to AC.

Or something like that.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Verzen wrote:

Call it, "elemental incarnation" then...

Yeah, something like that.

Dual and Omni gates could mix and match what they like.

I wouldn't know how to hammer defenses from 1e into 2e though; too much crunch.


The more I think about it, the more I think dual gate is the power option, since "cycling blast" is a tremendous help to action economy since you potentially have a lot of non-overflow abilities that cost two actions. So you can keep offensive pressure on every turn (potentially attacking and overflowing in the same turn which doesn't invoke MAP).


PossibleCabbage wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I think dual gate is the power option, since "cycling blast" is a tremendous help to action economy since you potentially have a lot of non-overflow abilities that cost two actions. So you can keep offensive pressure on every turn (potentially attacking and overflowing in the same turn which doesn't invoke MAP).

The list of qualifying abilities is here.


Could you not also use cycling blast to gather then blast, then overflow every round? This would prevent you from using defensive stuff that overflows when you use it (like stone shield) but it would be pretty decent pressure.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Could you not also use cycling blast to gather then blast, then overflow every round? This would prevent you from using defensive stuff that overflows when you use it (like stone shield) but it would be pretty decent pressure.

My understanding is because it is an impulse.

You need a element already gathered to use it.

Wich is weird given it's wording


Martialmasters wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Could you not also use cycling blast to gather then blast, then overflow every round? This would prevent you from using defensive stuff that overflows when you use it (like stone shield) but it would be pretty decent pressure.

My understanding is because it is an impulse.

You need a element already gathered to use it.

Wich is weird given it's wording

The wording implies you need an element already anyway.


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Yes, cycling blast requires having an element gathered. It allows for dual/universal kineticists to get a free attack if they want to switch elements while still gathered, which to be fair is really great; there are a lot of good aura/control/buffing moves that are not overflow. Things like an air-earth activating their aura turn 1, then swapping to the higher damage element for an attack, etc.

But it doesn't do anything to help overflow moves, those still need a regular gather (or extract) afterwards.


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Right. The language that is confusion is: "In either order, you can
make an Elemental Blast and Gather an Element; you must gather
a different element than the one you currently have gathered."

In either order doesn't mean you can gather an element if you don't already have one gathered (impulse trait prevents that) - it just means you can gather to change your element first if you want the free blast to be the new element, rather than the old.

It's a flexible either/or element free attack if you are already planning to otherwise waste a gather to swap elements, when you already had an element gathered and it would hurt to do it again.

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