Is trained to legendary class DC really that out of the question?


Kineticist Class

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Squiggit wrote:

Selective proficiency sounds like an annoying solution, not a fan.

Martialmasters wrote:
I am more amiable you the notion of only a single element reaching legendary even though I still hold that it breaks the checks and balances paizo has built for their system.

How can it break the system when it's only even relevant for a handful of levels?

The average player's kineticist will spend the vast majority of the campaign with the exact same proficiency as a caster.

Tbh to some extent this whole conversation about class DC almost feels like a distraction, because it's going to be so rarely relevant for most games. It's six levels, and four of those are backloaded where many campaigns might not even reach.

Kineticists being fractionally worse at exactly levels 7 or 8 is not some secret balance lynchpin.

That's the exact issue

If they capped at expert in martial proficiencies I would have no leg you stand on.


Themetricsystem wrote:

Blasts not getting to Legendary prof is a FAR bigger problem than the Class DC only hitting Master IMO.

Just kill the Elemental Immunity Class Ability altogether in exchange for Blast Legend. With gaining Resistance equal to your Character level as-is that's plenty powerful and if people REALLY want to be able to get Immunity you can just print a level 18 Class Feat that offers this as an option among the manifold other Feats you have to choose from.

I disagree with this as well.

Meg has been largely done. They are a little under inventor. Given our kit and options. Q huge damage buff isn't needed. This playtest it's pretty obvious they are not intended to be equivalent of a barbarian or fighter.


Martialmasters wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Selective proficiency sounds like an annoying solution, not a fan.

Martialmasters wrote:
I am more amiable you the notion of only a single element reaching legendary even though I still hold that it breaks the checks and balances paizo has built for their system.

How can it break the system when it's only even relevant for a handful of levels?

The average player's kineticist will spend the vast majority of the campaign with the exact same proficiency as a caster.

Tbh to some extent this whole conversation about class DC almost feels like a distraction, because it's going to be so rarely relevant for most games. It's six levels, and four of those are backloaded where many campaigns might not even reach.

Kineticists being fractionally worse at exactly levels 7 or 8 is not some secret balance lynchpin.

That's the exact issue

If they capped at expert in martial proficiencies I would have no leg you stand on.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing here. that becouse the kineticist is behind in dc during 6 levels, if you want to make it equal, you would have to be behind in attack for 10 levels? 15 levels actually, as you are behind by 1 for 10 levels too.


Pronate11 wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Selective proficiency sounds like an annoying solution, not a fan.

Martialmasters wrote:
I am more amiable you the notion of only a single element reaching legendary even though I still hold that it breaks the checks and balances paizo has built for their system.

How can it break the system when it's only even relevant for a handful of levels?

The average player's kineticist will spend the vast majority of the campaign with the exact same proficiency as a caster.

Tbh to some extent this whole conversation about class DC almost feels like a distraction, because it's going to be so rarely relevant for most games. It's six levels, and four of those are backloaded where many campaigns might not even reach.

Kineticists being fractionally worse at exactly levels 7 or 8 is not some secret balance lynchpin.

That's the exact issue

If they capped at expert in martial proficiencies I would have no leg you stand on.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing here. that becouse the kineticist is behind in dc during 6 levels, if you want to make it equal, you would have to be behind in attack for 10 levels? 15 levels actually, as you are behind by 1 for 10 levels too.

?

Master martial master class

Expert martial legendary class

I'd be for this being an option on character creation I guess.


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I still don't see why Legendary|Master is fine but not Master|Legendary and also start at expert or something.


Guntermench wrote:
I still don't see why Legendary|Master is fine but not Master|Legendary and also start at expert or something.

Have you not paid attention to every class in this game aside from fighter/gunslinger that only manage better because they were limited to a single martial weapon group.

And don't bring up the level 19 fighter feature please. This class isn't a fighter. It's a pretty poor argument.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Martialmasters wrote:
Pronate11 wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Selective proficiency sounds like an annoying solution, not a fan.

Martialmasters wrote:
I am more amiable you the notion of only a single element reaching legendary even though I still hold that it breaks the checks and balances paizo has built for their system.

How can it break the system when it's only even relevant for a handful of levels?

The average player's kineticist will spend the vast majority of the campaign with the exact same proficiency as a caster.

Tbh to some extent this whole conversation about class DC almost feels like a distraction, because it's going to be so rarely relevant for most games. It's six levels, and four of those are backloaded where many campaigns might not even reach.

Kineticists being fractionally worse at exactly levels 7 or 8 is not some secret balance lynchpin.

That's the exact issue

If they capped at expert in martial proficiencies I would have no leg you stand on.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing here. that becouse the kineticist is behind in dc during 6 levels, if you want to make it equal, you would have to be behind in attack for 10 levels? 15 levels actually, as you are behind by 1 for 10 levels too.

?

Master martial master class

Expert martial legendary class

I'd be for this being an option on character creation I guess.

Except there is no class with legendary class dc. there is only legendary spell casting dc. as you are very fond of doing, unless you can show me where the devs value class dc the exact same way as spell dc, this is all conjecture. I believe that class dc is not as inherently valuable as spell dc, while you do. I don't believe we can change each others minds at this point.


Pronate11 wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Pronate11 wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Selective proficiency sounds like an annoying solution, not a fan.

Martialmasters wrote:
I am more amiable you the notion of only a single element reaching legendary even though I still hold that it breaks the checks and balances paizo has built for their system.

How can it break the system when it's only even relevant for a handful of levels?

The average player's kineticist will spend the vast majority of the campaign with the exact same proficiency as a caster.

Tbh to some extent this whole conversation about class DC almost feels like a distraction, because it's going to be so rarely relevant for most games. It's six levels, and four of those are backloaded where many campaigns might not even reach.

Kineticists being fractionally worse at exactly levels 7 or 8 is not some secret balance lynchpin.

That's the exact issue

If they capped at expert in martial proficiencies I would have no leg you stand on.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing here. that becouse the kineticist is behind in dc during 6 levels, if you want to make it equal, you would have to be behind in attack for 10 levels? 15 levels actually, as you are behind by 1 for 10 levels too.

?

Master martial master class

Expert martial legendary class

I'd be for this being an option on character creation I guess.

Except there is no class with legendary class dc. there is only legendary spell casting dc. as you are very fond of doing, unless you can show me where the devs value class dc the exact same way as spell dc, this is all conjecture. I believe that class dc is not as inherently valuable as spell dc, while you do. I don't believe we can change each others minds at this point.

Any spell like ability that utilizes class DC is about the same as a actual spell.

Kineticist spell like abilities are akin to cantrips/spells.

Other than that I agree with your last statement.


Martialmasters wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
I still don't see why Legendary|Master is fine but not Master|Legendary and also start at expert or something.

Have you not paid attention to every class in this game aside from fighter/gunslinger that only manage better because they were limited to a single martial weapon group.

And don't bring up the level 19 fighter feature please. This class isn't a fighter. It's a pretty poor argument.

That's when a class would get Legendary in class DC so it seems kinda relevant.


Eh, fighters are the exception. I was already against gunslinger stepping on it.


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Martialmasters wrote:
Eh, fighters are the exception. I was already against gunslinger stepping on it.

So its not that it can't happen, its just that you don't like it.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Fighter and gunslinger don't rely on their class DC nearly as much as kineticist does. They aren't shooting torrent of water or lightning clouds, their DC is tied to much less class defining abilities.


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I think we might be overestimating how much the kineticist relies on their class DC. Something like 24 impulses use it, but there are over 90 kineticist feats to choose from.


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Currently playing a level 17 Gunslinger - I have my class DC only come up with Critical Weapon hits. Not when I use my class feats...

As said elsewhere, it isn't fun playtesting a kineticist and doing 25% of my damage (which is already lower than every other class based on action economy) since my class DC isn't scaling well


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Temperans wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Eh, fighters are the exception. I was already against gunslinger stepping on it.
So its not that it can't happen, its just that you don't like it.

I mean let's be realistic here. If paizo wanted to shatter the checks and balances they built they could give kineticist d12 for everything, require only con for everything, have legendary in every proficiency they have.

Everything everyone in here is subjective takes and theory.

We could I guess start every single post and reply with "imo" but after a while it seems rather pointless.

I try to keep my opinions and perspectives within the confine of established system metrics as much as possible and try to state when it's not.

Some people in here are just people who want to break the game for their own sense of power fantasy that they don't get out of a balanced system.

It's been that way for pretty much every playtest as well.

So in the end, assume what everyone says outside of a raw referenced correction as a opinion.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Martialmasters wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Eh, fighters are the exception. I was already against gunslinger stepping on it.
So its not that it can't happen, its just that you don't like it.

I mean let's be realistic here. If paizo wanted to shatter the checks and balances they built they could give kineticist d12 for everything, require only con for everything, have legendary in every proficiency they have.

Everything everyone in here is subjective takes and theory.

We could I guess start every single post and reply with "imo" but after a while it seems rather pointless.

I try to keep my opinions and perspectives within the confine of established system metrics as much as possible and try to state when it's not.

Some people in here are just people who want to break the game for their own sense of power fantasy that they don't get out of a balanced system.

It's been that way for pretty much every playtest as well.

So in the end, assume what everyone says outside of a raw referenced correction as a opinion.

You know, I was on bored with you, until you decided to label everyone who had a different opinion on something literally unprecedented " people who want to break the game for their own sense of power fantasy". We do not know the exact mechanical impact of having legendary class dc, as its never been done before. You can claim that its equivalent to spell dc, but that is just your opinion. claiming that those who see differently don't care about balance is a bad faith argument. I have faith in Piazo, if they see legendary class dc as equal to spell dc, cool, I'll respect that, and assume they did the math for it. But you nor I are piazo devs. labeling the others opinions as "breaking the game" isn't going to get anyone anywhere.


Pronate11 wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Eh, fighters are the exception. I was already against gunslinger stepping on it.
So its not that it can't happen, its just that you don't like it.

I mean let's be realistic here. If paizo wanted to shatter the checks and balances they built they could give kineticist d12 for everything, require only con for everything, have legendary in every proficiency they have.

Everything everyone in here is subjective takes and theory.

We could I guess start every single post and reply with "imo" but after a while it seems rather pointless.

I try to keep my opinions and perspectives within the confine of established system metrics as much as possible and try to state when it's not.

Some people in here are just people who want to break the game for their own sense of power fantasy that they don't get out of a balanced system.

It's been that way for pretty much every playtest as well.

So in the end, assume what everyone says outside of a raw referenced correction as a opinion.

You know, I was on bored with you, until you decided to label everyone who had a different opinion on something literally unprecedented " people who want to break the game for their own sense of power fantasy". We do not know the exact mechanical impact of having legendary class dc, as its never been done before. You can claim that its equivalent to spell dc, but that is just your opinion. claiming that those who see differently don't care about balance is a bad faith argument. I have faith in Piazo, if they see legendary class dc as equal to spell dc, cool, I'll respect that, and assume they did the math for it. But you nor I are piazo devs. labeling the others opinions as "breaking the game" isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

I said some, because why bother naming people, and many others even if they agree with the ones that actually have that perspective, don't actually share it themselves. So I didn't actually label anyone.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If the feats that use class DC stay the exact same from play test to final release, they could scale to legendary and get an extra+1 boost and still not really be worth taking more than one, maybe two of for specific situations.

They are so limited in what defenses they can target by element and the damage is so low it is really only the auxiliary effects and the ability to threaten large groups of enemies into scattering that gives them much value.

The thing is, the developers know this. They know people want more out of overflow abilities. But they also know the limits of what dials can be turned up in conjunction with each other. The more hyper focused the feedback is on accuracy alone, the more likely you end up with exactly what we have, but slightly more accurate.

I think the developers are capable of doing much better


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I feel like "I caused an earthquake, so now the ground is difficult" or "I caused a volcano to errupt, so walking there is going to hurt you" or "I caused a sandstorm so now you can't see what's going on in there" is more key to the fantasy of the kineticist than "I caused an earthquake so you fell down" or "I made a volcano erupt so you are dazzled" or "I caused a sandstorm so I can move people around."

Let the Kineticist play more with the battlefield and the need to land effects with DC is less. Like your ability to spam walls at high levels is AMAZING.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If the AoE were wide enought (not long range but wide AoE) then the make the battle field control more than just "this is hard to walk in" than damage does become less important for that ability. However, the entire class shouldn't revolve around that type of abilities.

Abilities that target a single character absolutely need the DC. Suffocating enemies, causing them to burst into flames, impaling them, freezing them, entangling them, throwing them against each other (not uplift literally throwing them for damage), staggering (slowed or stunned), creating actual natural disasters (like the actual earthquake spell and not just more difficult terrain), etc.

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