Does Endure Elements grant energy resistance or immunity?


Rules Discussion


Several years ago, while playing Pathfinder First Edition, I speculated that I would become immune to fire and cold damage if I'm under the effect of Endure Elements spell. I didn't have the chance to actually use this tactic in the gameplay, though. So I'm curious. According to Second Edition Core Rulebook, Endure Elements would prevent me from the severe or extreme weather. Can I logically assume that, since it blocks extreme heat and cold, it also blocks fire and cold damage as well?

Radiant Oath

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It does not. Endure Elements does exactly what the text says, which is protect you from the mechanical effects of Severe/Extreme Cold and Heat.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

As above: the spell only does what it says it does, which is protect against Environmental Temperature Effects.

The highest heightened level version of Endure Elements doesn't even protect you from the highest (Incredible) level of Temperature Effects.

Endure Elements wrote:
You shield the target against dangerous temperatures. Choose severe cold or heat. The target is protected from the temperature you chose (but not extreme cold or heat).
Temperature CRB p. 517 wrote:
Often, temperature doesn’t impose enough of a mechanical effect to worry about beyond describing the clothing the characters need to wear to be comfortable. Particularly hot and cold weather can make creatures fatigued more quickly during overland travel and can cause damage if harsh enough, as shown in Table 10–13.
Table 10-13: Temperature Effects wrote:


Severe Heat | 105 degrees F to 114 degrees F | Minor (1d6-2d6) Fire Damage every hour
. . .
Incredible Heat | 145 degrees F or warmer | Moderate (4d6-6d6) Fire Damage every minute

For reference, the coldest flame I could find with a quick search:

Wikipedia wrote:
Butane ~600 degrees F

And a candle burns at ~2012 degrees F.


In addition, Resist energy can help deal with environmental damage, but won't be able to lessen the fatigue effects.

That's up to endure elements.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For what it's worth the idea that Endure Elements granted immunity to Fire and Cold damage was also completely wrong in 1E. The spell even specifically said "Endure elements doesn’t provide any protection from fire or cold damage", so it was never a tactic, just a misunderstanding.


Hmm. It seems that even the weakest fire or cold damage is much stronger than extreme or incredible temperature effect. Then can I assume that the spell Resist Energy or the ring of energy resistance would protect me from temperature effects too?


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Aenigma wrote:
Hmm. It seems that even the weakest fire or cold damage is much stronger than extreme or incredible temperature effect. Then can I assume that the spell Resist Energy or the ring of energy resistance would protect me from temperature effects too?

It would protect against the damage from extreme weather yes.

But it wouldn't protect about side effects like fatigue and etc.

Shadow Lodge

Endure Elements can protect you from the appropriate Temperature effects but will not protect you from fire damage from any other sources.
Resist Energy (Fire) or similar energy resistance from another source will protect you (at least partially) from fire damage from all sources (including Heat), but will not protect you from 'Heat' Fatigue in Mild Heat or greater environments.


Not sure if I understood it correctly or not. Can I assume that, for example, red dragons would be immune to environmental heat since they are immune to fire damage? Likewise, white dragons and skeletons would be immune to environmental cold since they are immune or resistant to cold damage?

By the way, I have learned in several films that space is a very cold place. You'll freeze to death with unprotected exposure to outer space. Also, the really deep, dark parts of the ocean are terrifyingly cold as well. Can I assume that the cold temperatures of space and ocean would be considered as temperature effects? In other words, can I assume that Endure Elements would protect me from the harmful effects of space and deep ocean?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:


Not sure if I understood it correctly or not. Can I assume that, for example, red dragons would be immune to environmental heat since they are immune to fire damage? Likewise, white dragons and skeletons would be immune to environmental cold since they are immune or resistant to cold damage?

Effects of temperature include two things. Environmental damage and fatigue building up over time. Resistance or immunity to fire or cold will apply to that environmental damage.

There isn't a rule explicitly linking energy resistance and immunity to the fatigue build up.

Is assuming that a red dragon doesn't get fatigued from high temperatures appropriate and logical? Yes.

Is it appropriate because of a rule explicitly saying that not having a problem from fire damage implies that? Not really, no. But appropriate anyway, because creature statblocks don't tend to mechanically spell out their comfortable temperature range.

Is there an implied rule that a ring of fire resistance would also serve the purpose of Endure Elements? No.

Quote:
In other words, can I assume that Endure Elements would protect me from the harmful effects of space and deep ocean?

Not any effects other than temperature, but severe or extreme cold effects from those environments, with an appropriate level of Endure Elements, sure.

Shadow Lodge

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Aenigma wrote:

...

By the way, I have learned in several films that space is a very cold place. You'll freeze to death with unprotected exposure to outer space.
...

Technically speaking, space isn't actually cold: It's basically a vacuum, which means you'll retain your body heat quite well as there is nothing around you for Conduction or Convection to occur. On a practical level, keeping cool is a much bigger issue in space exploration than heating is.


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Indeed. Space measures as cold because very little mass is available to transfer energy to a thermometer.

But most of the particles floating around in space are moving at a very high speed (high temperature).

And like Taja mentioned, once something in space has a high temperature, lowering that temperature is rather difficult. Heat can't be destroyed.


Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Aenigma wrote:

...

By the way, I have learned in several films that space is a very cold place. You'll freeze to death with unprotected exposure to outer space.
...

Technically speaking, space isn't actually cold: It's basically a vacuum, which means you'll retain your body heat quite well as there is nothing around you for Conduction or Convection to occur. On a practical level, keeping cool is a much bigger issue in space exploration than heating is.

Taja is right.

There's so little mass in space for heat transfer to occur that you wont have to worry about getting cold. Many other things will cause your death first.

Keep in mind, heat transfer can occur in 1 of 3 ways.

1) Conduction - direct contact between two objects
2) Convection - flow of a fluid (liquid or gas) around an object
3) Radiation - this one is a lot less obvious to most people, and it's not ionizing radiation like you might imagine or be worried about from nuclear weapons. The warmth you feel on sunny day from being in direct sunlight is probably the best example of heat from radiation, although it's hard to divorce it from the other things happening.

In space, conduction and convection are negligible because there's basically nothing for your body to interact with. So it only leaves your body to radiate heat.

Keep in mind, all objects radiate heat (unless you're at absolute zero). But it's a very slow loss of heat.

Exposure to vacuum and lack of oxygen are way more of a concern than heat loss. Also keep in mind exposure to vacuum can cause liquids to freeze as it transitions from a liquid to a gas because of the difference in pressure causes a rapid temperature change due to vaporization.

Keep in mind that temperature change only applies to things that experience a rapid phase change due to exposure to vacuum.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I wasn't going to go into actual heat loss in space, since I figure it's one of those things where it will be treated as though it would freeze you at plenty of tables if it comes up, just like how a lot of people treat lava as something you could easily splash or sink into.


Yeah. More of a question for Starfinder too.


HammerJack wrote:
I wasn't going to go into actual heat loss in space, since I figure it's one of those things where it will be treated as though it would freeze you at plenty of tables if it comes up, just like how a lot of people treat lava as something you could easily splash or sink into.

Yeah, this is a funny one.

Lava, mostly (there are a lot of different kinds of lava) is very very very dense. While it's technically a liquid, it's so dense you wont sink into it and it has an extremely high viscosity (resistance to flow). So you wont easily displace it. Falling into lava would be a lot like falling onto solid rock. Followed (or really happening as you fall) by burning to death as temperatures would likely be enough to start causing your body to combust.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
Table 10-13: Temperature Effects wrote:


Severe Heat | 105 degrees F to 114 degrees F | Minor (1d6-2d6) Fire Damage every hour
. . .
Incredible Heat | 145 degrees F or warmer | Moderate (4d6-6d6) Fire Damage every minute

Ugh. They really must have thought about almost all the other world and put Celcius there also. Most TTRPG publishers are actually considerate enough nowadays to do it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Errenor wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Table 10-13: Temperature Effects wrote:


Severe Heat | 105 degrees F to 114 degrees F | Minor (1d6-2d6) Fire Damage every hour
. . .
Incredible Heat | 145 degrees F or warmer | Moderate (4d6-6d6) Fire Damage every minute
Ugh. They really must have thought about almost all the other world and put Celcius there also. Most TTRPG publishers are actually considerate enough nowadays to do it.

Oh. They did. I was too lazy to type it all out. ;)


Blake's Tiger wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Table 10-13: Temperature Effects wrote:


Severe Heat | 105 degrees F to 114 degrees F | Minor (1d6-2d6) Fire Damage every hour
. . .
Incredible Heat | 145 degrees F or warmer | Moderate (4d6-6d6) Fire Damage every minute
Ugh. They really must have thought about almost all the other world and put Celcius there also. Most TTRPG publishers are actually considerate enough nowadays to do it.
Oh. They did. I was too lazy to type it all out. ;)

Really? I see AoN did it. But in the book I have access to there's no ºC. Did they add it in the last errata maybe?


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Errenor wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Table 10-13: Temperature Effects wrote:


Severe Heat | 105 degrees F to 114 degrees F | Minor (1d6-2d6) Fire Damage every hour
. . .
Incredible Heat | 145 degrees F or warmer | Moderate (4d6-6d6) Fire Damage every minute
Ugh. They really must have thought about almost all the other world and put Celcius there also. Most TTRPG publishers are actually considerate enough nowadays to do it.
Oh. They did. I was too lazy to type it all out. ;)
Really? I see AoN did it. But in the book I have access to there's no ºC. Did they add it in the last errata maybe?

The temperature in Celsius is an addition done by AoN. Every printing of the core book only has the temperature in Fahrenheit.

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:
Exposure to vacuum and lack of oxygen are way more of a concern than heat loss.

Yeah, this is the big one. The surrounding vacuum will cause your respiratory system to work in reverse, actively pulling oxygen out of your blood through your lungs, resulting in unconsciousness within 15-20 seconds. That's assuming your lungs were empty at the moment you went on your spacewalk, as air held in your lungs would explosively expand due to the pressure differential, likely rupturing them.

If you did this in full sunlight, you would also get a very, very bad sunburn, but that would be a problem for Future You, if there is such a person.


Losonti wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Exposure to vacuum and lack of oxygen are way more of a concern than heat loss.

Yeah, this is the big one. The surrounding vacuum will cause your respiratory system to work in reverse, actively pulling oxygen out of your blood through your lungs, resulting in unconsciousness within 15-20 seconds. That's assuming your lungs were empty at the moment you went on your spacewalk, as air held in your lungs would explosively expand due to the pressure differential, likely rupturing them.

If you did this in full sunlight, you would also get a very, very bad sunburn, but that would be a problem for Future You, if there is such a person.

Yeah, pro tip if you're ever exposed to hard vacuum of space, try to exhale beforehand.

If you hold air in your lungs it will damage your lung tissue, and because oxygen is a gas and will flow into areas of less pressure the gas will leave your lungs regardless, you will not be able to hold it in. But attempting to do so will cause the soft tissues to expand and rupture until you cannot hold it in.

Of course, assuming you don't have a space suit protecting your body from vacuum the blood inside your body will start to turn to gas because of the pressure difference inside to outside. It doesn't happen super fast, but will happen. Of course, you'll be dead from a lack of oxygen first.

So you're going to have a really bad time, but it wont be because "space is cold".


Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Aenigma wrote:

...

By the way, I have learned in several films that space is a very cold place. You'll freeze to death with unprotected exposure to outer space.
...

Technically speaking, space isn't actually cold: It's basically a vacuum, which means you'll retain your body heat quite well as there is nothing around you for Conduction or Convection to occur. On a practical level, keeping cool is a much bigger issue in space exploration than heating is.

Ehhh background space temperature is something less than 3 kelvins, which is something less than 3 degrees above absolute 0.

i'd say that is actually pretty effing "cold".

that said, without matter, the only way for heat to transfer (either way) is radiation, so it's not as fast as movies/comics depict.

still, for long exposure you do need thermal protection, both against losing heat (and freezing to death) and gaining heat (and burning to death), depending where you are compared to the sun. Good thing that space suits come with those^^.


Because the human body generates heat as part of the biological process, you honestly could get by with a thin (heat) reflective material to keep from getting cold in space. However, you'll need some good systems to keep from overheating in space.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Aenigma wrote:

...

By the way, I have learned in several films that space is a very cold place. You'll freeze to death with unprotected exposure to outer space.
...

Technically speaking, space isn't actually cold: It's basically a vacuum, which means you'll retain your body heat quite well as there is nothing around you for Conduction or Convection to occur. On a practical level, keeping cool is a much bigger issue in space exploration than heating is.

Correct, space is a vacuum. A vacuum does not conduct heat. The biggest problem astronauts have is overheating, they have to get rid of the excess heat. Being in sunlight will cook you in only a few minutes, just like being in a low power microwave. Touching a surface that has been in shadow for long enough will suck the heat out of your glove and cause you frostbite because all the heat energy has radiated into space over time.

Shadow Lodge

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shroudb wrote:
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Aenigma wrote:

...

By the way, I have learned in several films that space is a very cold place. You'll freeze to death with unprotected exposure to outer space.
...

Technically speaking, space isn't actually cold: It's basically a vacuum, which means you'll retain your body heat quite well as there is nothing around you for Conduction or Convection to occur. On a practical level, keeping cool is a much bigger issue in space exploration than heating is.

Ehhh background space temperature is something less than 3 kelvins, which is something less than 3 degrees above absolute 0.

i'd say that is actually pretty effing "cold".

that said, without matter, the only way for heat to transfer (either way) is radiation, so it's not as fast as movies/comics depict.

still, for long exposure you do need thermal protection, both against losing heat (and freezing to death) and gaining heat (and burning to death), depending where you are compared to the sun. Good thing that space suits come with those^^.

The issue is that the average mass density of the cosmos is estimated to be the equivalent of less than 5 protons (yes, we are talking sub-atomic particles here) per cubic meter, so calling space 'cold' is kinda like calling a stadium 'hot' because there is a single lit candle in it.

A true vacuum doesn't actually have a temperature, as this term just doesn't apply when there is no matter. Space does have some matter in it, but it's still really, really, really, really, really, really empty, so it would probably interact with you like a dropping a grain of sand in a lake: Regardless of the grain's starting temperature, it just doesn't have to mass to significantly impact the lake's temperature.

If a fantasy character's body was magically safeguarded against a (near or total) vacuum environment, he'd probably sweat like crazy as his body attempts to dump excess (self generated) body heat: Presuming his magic does not protect his secretions, this might actually work for while as his sweat will instantly vaporize in a vacuum (taking some heat with it), but he'll dehydrate really quickly without additional magics...

Once he deals with this, then he can worry about cosmic rays and other radiation sources cooking his cells...

Space: No part of it wants you there...


Yeah, Taja you touch on an important point that many people aren't aware of.

Temperature is a measure of the average energy of the particles around the measuring device. When you're talking about measuring the temperature of an atmosphere or a solid object it makes sense.

When you're talking about trying to measure the temperature of virtually nothing...it doesn't make very much sense.

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