You, in real life, gain 20 levels of Commoner, and a free Variant Multiclass (don't trade feats for it). Which VMC do you pick?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Bonus: Which Alternate Capstone would you choose, since you can get one even if the class you took 20 levels in doesn't have one to trade?

For me, it'd have to be Oracle. I'd choose the Consumed Curse, so I can go at least 15 days without food and water, though probably less because that's just how long I can go before suffering physical damage from not eating/drinking. Still, the money I'll save from not having to buy as much food and water will be tremendous.

And being able to resist poisons and diseases by rolling twice and taking the better result, when we are living in a pandemic, would be amazing.

Life Mystery would be pretty good, and hopefully I can help my mom out with some of the Revelations, or maybe with them and feats enhancing them.

For the Alternate Capstone, I'd select "With This Sword", and have the item be the bracelet my mom made me. Since it is now an artifact, I can wear it at all times without fear of it breaking (it has broken before), and I can give it 100,000 gp worth of healing based spells to go with my healing theme from the Life Mystery.


Pffft.... Paladin. Being able to actually sense OBJECTIVELY evil things would be a huge game changer in the real world.

If we assume objective evil doesn't exist like it does in the pathfinder setting, I'd go for VMC Witch soley for the ability to use Regenerative Sinew.


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Saving money form not eating is not going to be really helpful. While it may seem like a lot of money in reality it is not. The only people who spend a significant amount of money on food is those with no income. A wealthy person may spend a lot on food, but as a percentage of income it is actually much lower than someone who is poor. The amount of money you save on not eating is not going to be enough to change your lifestyle.

In the real world detect evil is not going to be that useful because the vast majority of people are not high enough to register and there are no monsters. Lay on hand would be fairly good but being limited to only 3rd level mercies makes paladin only good for something like an EMT.

Bard would be a great choice. Getting a +10 to all knowledge skills and the ability to take 20 once per day would be incredibly useful. Versatile performance would give you more skills. Inspire competence would also be a very useful ability. You would be able to answer all but the most difficult questions at will and be able to answer 1 incredibly difficult question per day without putting in a single skill point or using any feats. Knowledge is power and power translates into wealth. You would end up very wealthy

Sorcerer with the right bloodline looks fairly good. I would probably go with Rakshasa. Being able to use Alter Self at will and being able to stay in the form as long as you like is hard to beat. Then throw in being able to read people’s minds, Silver Tongue and the feat deceitful makes this hard to beat. You would become the world’s greatest spy.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Saving money form not eating is not going to be really helpful. While it may seem like a lot of money in reality it is not. The only people who spend a significant amount of money on food is those with no income. A wealthy person may spend a lot on food, but as a percentage of income it is actually much lower than someone who is poor. The amount of money you save on not eating is not going to be enough to change your lifestyle.

In the real world detect evil is not going to be that useful because the vast majority of people are not high enough to register and there are no monsters. Lay on hand would be fairly good but being limited to only 3rd level mercies makes paladin only good for something like an EMT.

Bard would be a great choice. Getting a +10 to all knowledge skills and the ability to take 20 once per day would be incredibly useful. Versatile performance would give you more skills. Inspire competence would also be a very useful ability. You would be able to answer all but the most difficult questions at will and be able to answer 1 incredibly difficult question per day without putting in a single skill point or using any feats. Knowledge is power and power translates into wealth. You would end up very wealthy

Sorcerer with the right bloodline looks fairly good. I would probably go with Rakshasa. Being able to use Alter Self at will and being able to stay in the form as long as you like is hard to beat. Then throw in being able to read people’s minds, Silver Tongue and the feat deceitful makes this hard to beat. You would become the world’s greatest spy.

While it isn't exactly no income, I live on disability (I'm on the Autism spectrum), and so does my mom that I live with (she's physically disabled due to a handful of conditions, although we suspect she is also on the spectrum). Not having to pay for food most days would literally get us out of the hole we are in.


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This is entirely too close to "I have real-life issues, and here's my fantasy of how I would solve them". The time you're spending fantasising about it is time you're not spending addressing the issue in real life.


Not having to pay for food would allow you to move into a better place and give you more disposable income. Having hundreds of millions of dollars would allow to you own multiple mansions and have a staff of servants to wait on your every whim. It would also allow you to pursue any form of leisure or entertainment you desire. It would also allow you to get the best medical care in the world for your mother. Even if they cannot fix her disabilities having enough money may be able to mitigate some of the issues. Having a chauffeur and personal assistant to help them move around would really help someone with mobility issues.


Bard VMC would make real life hilariously easy. Consider the implications of Bardic Knowledge and Loremaster for a second, with the ability to take 20 on any knowledge-based matter (engineering, history, laws, politics, religion), with a minimum of a +10 bonus… as a standard action. Consider what that would mean for academia, politics, negotiating, and so on.

Oh, and as a bonus, you can, e.g., sing your way out of trouble—and if that failed, to sing people into panic.


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(OMG I just lost a long post -_- so annoyed!)

Yeah there are better ways to make money than eating less. The Witch VMC can give you the Regenerative Sinew hex, which would - among other things - give you the ability to regrow people's limbs and organs. You could charge money for this, and since you can do it to up to 14,400 people in a day (that's how many rounds per day) you could make $14,400/day by charging them $1 each. Now obviously you need to eat and sleep, and you're probably not spending dvery second of your work-time just spamming your hex, so if we say 1/minute for 8 hours that' still 480 patients per day, charge them ~100 bucks each and you've made ~5 grand. Not bad for a day's work.

Or if you don't want to be so openly magical, just take the ~40 skill ranks you got from Commoner and pump them into Knowledge: Engineering or something and get yourself a degree. You're now the world's leading authority on mechanical engineering, or History, or whatever.

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
This is entirely too close to ...

These kinds of questions pop up all the time. It's not like spending an hour fantasizing about this is going to stop someone from living a real life. Let people have their fantasy in a fantasy RPG forum.


Well this got real. I just wanted to see what people would like to be able to do if they were given this buff, and my answer to these types of questions is almost always "fix my mom", and I always try to answer the questions I give for stuff like this.

I was unaware of the Regenerative Sinew Hex, or I would have said that. However, I do believe that I wouldn't be able to protect myself if the big pharmacy companies and/or hospitals started getting angry enough to hire a hit man to deal with me taking all their customers, so I don't think I'd be willing to start a business with it.

And before you think I'm being paranoid, I live in the USA, where healthcare is about helping people SECOND, and being a business first. I am not being paranoid enough actually.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Not having to pay for food would allow you to move into a better place and give you more disposable income. Having hundreds of millions of dollars would allow to you own multiple mansions and have a staff of servants to wait on your every whim. It would also allow you to pursue any form of leisure or entertainment you desire. It would also allow you to get the best medical care in the world for your mother. Even if they cannot fix her disabilities having enough money may be able to mitigate some of the issues. Having a chauffeur and personal assistant to help them move around would really help someone with mobility issues.

I'll be honest, I somehow skipped the paragraph you talked about Bard and the wealth I could get with it. I read all the other paragraphs though, so I really don't know what happened.

That would be way better, so I think I'd go for Bard.

MrCharisma wrote:
Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
This is entirely too close to ...
These kinds of questions pop up all the time. It's not like spending an hour fantasizing about this is going to stop someone from living a real life. Let people have their fantasy in a fantasy RPG forum.

I barely spent 5 minutes thinking about it, because I wanted to see other's answers, but don't like to be a hypocrite and thus gave an answer myself. But yeah, like you said, it is just about having fun with fantasy. Doesn't stop us from living our lives.


first lets put up the fact a level 20 commoner would still have a lot of hp, saves and bab compared to almost any other person on the planet.

now a life orcale could get you a pass off of any one poison or disease with "delay affliction" that has 3 uses and last for 13~ 14 hours each so you can just wait one out until cured or treated etc. along with channel and energy body to heal up damage.

but i must say summoner vmc is a lot better.

you get 3x day summon monster IX that take a full round (6 seconds) and last 18 rounds (108 seconds) and with one of them you can have an eidolon that is equal to one a level 16 summoner could bring but with half the pool points - it's still a beast to be reckoned with. (the aspect is not that great but still an option).

the summon monster by itself can get you a host of spell casting summons who can alter reality in ways that non of the other vmc can. while a wish from a Glabrezu might not end well. the Astral Deva can do so much more (remove disease at will. 7/day cure light wounds, 1/day heal not including the offensive abilities... )


The summoners powers are all pretty much combat related. Modern weaponry is pretty dangerous even for someone with the HP of a 20th level character. Other than becoming a mercenary it does not really allow you to do much. The only way for you to earn money would be by putting yourself in danger. The other thing is that none of the abilities would be of any use for managing your money. Chances are you would end up like a lot of professional athletes that earn a lot of money and end up losing it all.

The VMC bard would be an expert in all knowledges. I was bored so went ahead and tied actually building this character. I ended up with a +20 in all knowledge skills, and two of them were around +45, and one with a +33. The character also had perform oratory at +33, which gave him a +33 on diplomacy and sense motive. Using the +45 for KS: Engineering and KS: Local I end up with a tech genius that is an expert lawyer. The diplomacy and sense motive makes him into businessman that no one can beat. This guy would be able to rule the world.


I think the idea of the Summoner was to summon a literal Angel to heal people around you and cast spells and just generally be an all-round great guy, not to take it into a combat zone for ~6 minutes per day.

The other thing to remember about VMC Bard is that Versatile Performance kinda relies on having a decent CHA-score. You're still using your own stats, so it'll depend on what you think your scores are. Of course you'd still effectively get more skill-ranks, but it may not pump them up super high.

Although that reminded me: A 20th level Commoner still gets five +1s to their ability scores, so (assuming you get to pick them) you could also tailor yourself to be a bit smarter or stronger or whatever ...


Even with extremely low charisma, (let's say your stats are rolled and you're at a -3 CHA modifier), you're still looking at +17 in diplomacy and sense motive both, before skill focus.

With Skill Focus and the split skill focus variants you're looking at a base +27 in the skill of your choice. Before any other modifiers.

That's in the realm of talking hostile enemies into giving in to even dangerous requests.

While rolling straight nat 1s.


The build I did was based on a human with 10 in every starting stat. I put the +2 for being human into INT as well as all the bonuses for level to get skill levels. I also used the alternative racial trait focused study. The rest of the skills were used to for things like scholar and other non-combat boost to skills. Putting 20 ranks into a skill and taking skill focus gets a decent bonus even with a 10 stat. The additional trait allowed me to make a few skills including perform class skills.

In all honesty if this was myself the stats would be higher and the class would be expert not commoner.


I need to look over the various VMCs but my initial want is anything that lets me cast prestidigitation.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
In the real world detect evil is not going to be that useful because the vast majority of people are not high enough to register and there are no monsters.

Hey, if I am suddenly a level 20 commoner with semi-Paladin powers, who is to say there aren't any monsters? Or that people aren't level 5 or higher with really, really low hit point totals? Or that the auras people emit won't be powerful enough to detect?

Quote:
Lay on hand would be fairly good but being limited to only 3rd level mercies makes paladin only good for something like an EMT.

How I choose to use my healing gifts or how useful they would be is not really relevant towards my desire to USE those powers. Not sure this thread was meant to be 'critique everyone else's choices' but rather which would you choose.


MrCharisma wrote:

(OMG I just lost a long post -_- so annoyed!)

Yeah there are better ways to make money than eating less. The Witch VMC can give you the Regenerative Sinew hex, which would - among other things - give you the ability to regrow people's limbs and organs. You could charge money for this, and since you can do it to up to 14,400 people in a day (that's how many rounds per day) you could make $14,400/day by charging them $1 each. Now obviously you need to eat and sleep, and you're probably not spending dvery second of your work-time just spamming your hex, so if we say 1/minute for 8 hours that' still 480 patients per day, charge them ~100 bucks each and you've made ~5 grand. Not bad for a day's work.

Math error: That's 50 grand, no 5 grand.

And $100 is insanely cheap for limb replacement. That's less than a prosthetic! Specialize in limb replacement, work for one of the major medical facilities. You're not competition as they have no ability to replace limbs in the first place--the only competition is the prosthetic companies.

Charge each patient $1000, at 400/day and a typical work week you'll replace 100,000 limbs/year and you'll be making $100 million/year--that should take care of most anything else you might need. There are enough lost limbs in the developed world (people that can afford to travel to you) to keep this up forever. You could also work faster at first and make a few billion dealing with the backlog. They can put people in wheelchairs and wheel a couple of lanes of them past you, they can saturate your ability to do it.

Edit: I noticed it also does organs. Now you've got some doctors upset because their transplant business is gone.


Loren Pechtel wrote:
Math error: That's 50 grand, no 5 grand.

Oh good catch.

Loren Pechtel wrote:
And $100 is insanely cheap for limb replacement.

Yeah that's the point. You could offer insanely cheap limb replacement and still make 5 grand a day, which is ~$1 mil a year if you only work school days - except I did my maths wrong and it's actually 10 times that (good catch).


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The summoners powers are all pretty much combat related. Modern weaponry is pretty dangerous even for someone with the HP of a 20th level character. Other than becoming a mercenary it does not really allow you to do much. The only way for you to earn money would be by putting yourself in danger. The other thing is that none of the abilities would be of any use for managing your money. Chances are you would end up like a lot of professional athletes that earn a lot of money and end up losing it all.

The VMC bard would be an expert in all knowledges. I was bored so went ahead and tied actually building this character. I ended up with a +20 in all knowledge skills, and two of them were around +45, and one with a +33. The character also had perform oratory at +33, which gave him a +33 on diplomacy and sense motive. Using the +45 for KS: Engineering and KS: Local I end up with a tech genius that is an expert lawyer. The diplomacy and sense motive makes him into businessman that no one can beat. This guy would be able to rule the world.

as MrCharisma said, my point was the spell like abilities your summons can bring. the astral diva was an example for a creature who has remove disease at will and 1/day heal. but you can bring other things as well.

look at the spell list a Trumpet archon has for example (i can probably go around looking at more summons but that will hog up the thread):

Constant—magic circle against evil
At will—aid, continual flame, detect evil, greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), message
Spells Prepared (CL 14th)
7th—mass cure serious wounds (2)
6th—banishment (DC 21), heal (2)
5th—dispel evil (DC 20), mass cure light wounds, plane shift (DC 20), ***raise dead***
4th—dismissal (DC 19), divine power, neutralize poison (DC 19), spell immunity
3rd—cure serious wounds, daylight, invisibility purge, magic vestment, protection from energy
2nd—bull’s strength, consecrate, cure moderate wounds (2), lesser restoration (2), owl’s wisdom
1st—bless, cure light wounds (3), divine favor, sanctuary (DC 16), shield of faith
0 (at will)—detect magic, purify food and drink, stabilize, virtue

being able to rise 3 people from the dead each day should probably be a lot better then a dubious wish granted by a Gelbrazu. and hey it can even work for regenerating an arm. just kill the guy and rise him...(JK).

Funny enough i think the REAL cash would come from the at will continual flame if you can harness the light as an energy source. you got the make of a perpetual engine, and one you can make 54 of each day. (kinda waste to call a 9th level summon to cast his at will light spell but..)

EDIT: hmm i think a summoned creature spells duration end when he goes off so maybe that last bit about the light source won't work. unless you do make that wish from the Gelbrazu. But hey. all them greater teleport of self + 50 lb the devils\angels etc get can be used for instant deliveries (even tactical ones like a bomb to the right place)


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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Edit: I noticed it also does organs. Now you've got some doctors upset because their transplant business is gone.

Had a thought here: It seems to me that it would undo deliberate, wanted things also.

Wisdom teeth and sterilization come to mind.


None of these things mean anything to me... bonuses on Knowledge checks? Rolling twice against disease?

When I am at work trying to figure out how to take apart an engine I have never seen before, there is no Knowledge Engineering "skill check" taking place... I am not Taking 10 or Taking 20, unless we are talking minutes to smoke a cigarette while I figure $#!+ out.

When I think I might be getting sick, I do what I always do... absolutely nothing. My immune system is strong like bull, and I have full faith in my body's ability to power through whatever may, or may not, be happening. The show must go on regardless, so it doesn't matter if I am sick or not.

Bonuses to attack and damage? It's been over a decade since I have been in any sort of legit fist fight... even longer since I have been in a legit gun fight. Equally as long since anyone has set a trap for me outside of practical jokes... Armor/Weapon Training, Trapfinding... none of it means anything to me today. Flat number bonuses don't mean anything because accuracy is about hits and misses, my ability to move at full speed in my armor was a matter of willpower/motivation and physical endurance, the ability to notice traps was dumb luck more than actual perception of the hidden threat... no numerical bonus would have even contributed anything to literally any situation I have ever been in.

I would probably choose something with a Familiar... a pet I could talk to is literally the only thing remotely interesting to me that is available for a Commoner VMC.


VoodistMonk wrote:

None of these things mean anything to me... bonuses on Knowledge checks? Rolling twice against disease?

When I am at work trying to figure out how to take apart an engine I have never seen before, there is no Knowledge Engineering "skill check" taking place... I am not Taking 10 or Taking 20, unless we are talking minutes to smoke a cigarette while I figure $#!+ out.

The very premise of this exercise is that what works for Pathfinder (somehow) works in the real world, though. So yeah, we're talking about the ability to figure out a complex mechanical problem in which you have no formal training, in a matter of seconds, with expert-level bonuses to aid you, three times a day.


Yeah, but a magical pet is still by far the best thing VMC has to offer.


a magical pet without the means to protect it will just get taken by the government to be experimented on faster then you can say "E.T."

i still stand by my opinion of a summoner vmc.
you can talk to the eidolon just as well, and customize it's look to fit your will. (and as mentioned the options of rising the dead and curing diseases are still a big plus)


I think the summoned creature would be really good too. The ability to remove disease and heal would be a great benefit.

I didn't think summoned creatures could summon others and they can't use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive components (like raise dead or continual flame). Also, any spells with duration, like continual flame would end when the summons ended. Still, healing would be in demand and worth it for both yourself and family, but also for healing others (altruistically or financially).


Honestly, for general purpose the best options are Summoner (because obvious) and Witch because of hexes. On a lesser note, Druid is really good since you can get Wild Empathy (become the animal whisperer) and Wild Shape (can do some interesting things).

All the directly combat classes are better for soldiers, or people who would want to use those abilities in the first place. Ex: A bounty hunter picking ranger, or a monk picking monk.

***********************

As to the reasons why Summoner and Witch.

People mentioned Regenerative Sinew, but you don't just get 1 Hex, you get 3 hexes:
* Aura of Purity would enable you to survive most air pollution and diseases. Great in case of emergency.
* Disguise can prevent you from getting caught, or it can be used to earn money.
* Slumber can get you out of trouble or get someone giving you trouble into trouble. (Really scary with cars).
* Minor Prophesy (Augury) can be useful for simple predictions, like deciding what numbers to use for the lottery.
* Hidden Home to evade property taxes. Make the home look shabby on the outside, but actually be super luxurious.
* Prophecy (Divination) can solve a lot of potential issues. Especially when you can cast it 1/day for free.

Summoner is obvious not only because of the spells. But also because of all the cool creatures you can summon to hang out with you, even if it's just 20 minutes.


Pizza Lord wrote:

I think the summoned creature would be really good too. The ability to remove disease and heal would be a great benefit.

I didn't think summoned creatures could summon others and they can't use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive components (like raise dead or continual flame). Also, any spells with duration, like continual flame would end when the summons ended. Still, healing would be in demand and worth it for both yourself and family, but also for healing others (altruistically or financially).

Summoned creatures cannot summon or conjure other creatures, nor can they use teleportation or planar abilities.

However, all spells that they cast have their full duration. So continual flame (permanent) would remain, even after the summon disappears. Their best use is to have them do stuff that you normally wouldn't be able to do, or as extra bodies at a crucial point.


Temperans wrote:
Pizza Lord wrote:

I think the summoned creature would be really good too. The ability to remove disease and heal would be a great benefit.

I didn't think summoned creatures could summon others and they can't use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive components (like raise dead or continual flame). Also, any spells with duration, like continual flame would end when the summons ended. Still, healing would be in demand and worth it for both yourself and family, but also for healing others (altruistically or financially).

Summoned creatures cannot summon or conjure other creatures, nor can they use teleportation or planar abilities.

However, all spells that they cast have their full duration. So continual flame (permanent) would remain, even after the summon disappears. Their best use is to have them do stuff that you normally wouldn't be able to do, or as extra bodies at a crucial point.

@Pizza Lord & Temperans

yes and no.

as per the conjuration school rules

summoned creature can use any teleportation ability it have (although a lot have it set to only teleport themselves and 50 lb of gear) as for planner travel it is not barred ether (depending no other impeding factor is at hand such as magic circles\planner binding etc).

summoned creature with a spell like ability of a spell with expensive material cost (from the list there were wish, rise dead and con. flame for example) can still cast it. it had no cost before it has no cost after. (if it is a spell and not spell like abilities then the summoner might need to supply the material since the summoned probably do not have it on him when summoned).

the only limitation of spell-like abilities it has is : "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have."

spells they cast have their full duration up till they are unsummoned. where upon :
"When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire" - it matter not if the duration left is 5 rounds or infinity.

Scarab Sages

VMC would be wizard . . .

Discovery: At 15th level, he gains an arcane discovery or wizard bonus feat, treating his character level as his effective wizard level.

Immortality (Ex) (Ultimate Magic pg. 86): You discover a cure for aging, and from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time. You must be at least a 20th-level wizard to select this discovery.

No longer having an expiry date is a huge gamechanger. Work hard for a few decades, invest well then barring accidents you've eternity to learn and see and experience the world and quite possibly other worlds/systems in time. Even aside from that you get all sorts of other benefits like a fuzzy animal companion to help pass the centuries, potentially the ability to develop magical spells and learn to be a real 20th level wizard in time. If your int 10 (likely) you get a cantrip at will e.g. prestidigitation.

As for capstone I'd take wont stay dead 1 a week "I didn't actually die" in case of accidental death or misfortune.

EDIT
If its something replicable like sun orchid elixir the rich and powerful would pay a fortune for it. Alternatively kidnap you and force you to provide it to them. Still "1 million for immortality" is a deal I expect a lot would happily pay for then you use that to hire security against those who can't/wont.


I guess I was wrong about the duration part.

But regarding the teleportation and sub summoning I was quoting the spell when I said it.

Summon Monster 1 - AONPRD wrote:
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

*******************

Also wow great idea with VMC Wizard. You could even go Master Craftman + universal to make yourself magic items.


Temperans wrote:

I guess I was wrong about the duration part.

But regarding the teleportation and sub summoning I was quoting the spell when I said it.

Summon Monster 1 - AONPRD wrote:
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

*******************

Also wow great idea with VMC Wizard. You could even go Master Craftman + universal to make yourself magic items.

i stand corrected. i remembered something about the expensive but couldn't find it so i thought i recalled wrong.

@Senko
i was thinking about getting that no aging discovery but noticed it only prevent aging ability penalty . it say nothing about prolonging your life span. you just stay fit until the moment you drop dead from old age.
mechanically it does the same thing as the druid's timeless body (beside removing old age penalties already received):
"Timeless Body (Ex): After attaining 15th level, a druid no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the druid still dies of old age when her time is up."

as the discovery say nothing about stopping ageing and remaining youthful it doesn't stop death from old age.


For the teleport thing, I believe I read it in Summon Monster.

Quote:
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

That might just be for specifically summon monster spells, but summon nature's ally says the same, it seems like it's a quality that was either added in but not meshed into the Conjuration heading or maybe not, but since almost any summon effect probably parrots summon monster it seems likely.


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Senko wrote:

VMC would be wizard . . .

Discovery: At 15th level, he gains an arcane discovery or wizard bonus feat, treating his character level as his effective wizard level.

Immortality (Ex) (Ultimate Magic pg. 86): You discover a cure for aging, and from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time. You must be at least a 20th-level wizard to select this discovery.

Either you've missed something or I have.


MrCharisma wrote:
Senko wrote:

VMC would be wizard . . .

Discovery: At 15th level, he gains an arcane discovery or wizard bonus feat, treating his character level as his effective wizard level.

Immortality (Ex) (Ultimate Magic pg. 86): You discover a cure for aging, and from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time. You must be at least a 20th-level wizard to select this discovery.

Either you've missed something or I have.

Its a quirk of how you get levels.

If you get each level one by one then yea the discovery would have to be level 15 with no real way to retrain it.

However, if you get all the levels at once then you would be level 20 and qualify for all feats appropriately. Of course this also means you do not qualify for any feat that requies you are level 1.

*****************

Alternately, you just buy it with a regular feat. You are afterall a "wizard" and your level is "20".


Oh ok. I feel like assuming it works that way is a big assumption. That's definitely not how I read it, but I guess we can ask Reksew_Trebla, or since this is all a hypothetical we can just stipulate that we're using that set of rules. That would definitely be something that isn't assumed though.


You gain each level one by one, but technically speaking, I don't think anything in the rules of Pathfinder says you can't intentionally not take a feat at 3rd level, and wait until 4th level to fill it because you want Animal Ally (prereq of level 4 for some reason), for example.

Even if you do have to fill everything right away, retraining rules are a thing. Only problem is getting that much gold to actually retrain (we can actually calculate the real world price. I forget the numbers, but I think it was 50 gp is one pound of gold, so from there, you can calculate the gp price to retrain, and then the real world price to retrain).


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I had other ideas when I opened this thread, but the existence of Bardic Knowledge made me switch to Bard. That +10 to all Knowledge skills is just too useful to turn down and has the side benefit of me seeming to be a genius rather than a freak as many of the other VMC options might.


The bigger issue with retraining is that you need someone that has the feat/ability you want.

Scarab Sages

1) @ Multiple posters. Its a debate and yes Reskew as the thread would be the final adjudicator but I was working on the assumption I was building a level 20 commoner not a level by level 20 commoner. In the same way most people building a 20th level character make different choices to someone building that character level by level e.g. ranger favoured enemy taking common foes like humans vs taking abberations because they have been fighting them a lot in the past 2 levels or not taking specific spells like sleep because at 20 your not facing foes it'll work on. I assumed this because we were focusing on 20 levels of commoner and picking a VMC plus capstone so to me it implied it all came at once as we're only discussing the final capstone and what VMC we'd take.

2)@Zza NI this has been discussed before and no paizo ruling was given but the general consensus of the discussions I've read/been involved in wound up assuming it was eternal youth not just no aging penalties. This was because
(1) It's a level 20 capstone discovery and simply negating aging penalties is not worth that for a class that is focused on mental stats.
(2) The abilities like tiemless body have specific wording on them specifying you dying of old age and there is no similar "You still die at maximum age" with this ability.
(3) The ability is titled immortality and if you die at your maxium age that is definately not immortality.
(4) I have seen people saying SKR stated the intent of this was to not die of old age in 2012 but that could just be their interpretation its NOT an official ruling by PAIZO. See links and comment below.
(5) There are spells that also negate ability score penalties and have a capstone style abliity to do the same is utterly pointless when you can just cast the spell.
(6) The ability states you discover a cure for aging and a primary drawback of aging is dying of old age.
(7) There is apparently published content containing things like a thousand year old wizard with this discovery hence implying this discovery is why they're still alive at a millenia old.
(8) Very few games got to 20th level, fewer still beyond it so immortality is a largely meaningless choice except for roleplayign and for roleplaying becomes equally meaningless if you still die at your maximum age.
(9) Technically you can become a lich at lower level so why would immortality at 20th level not be immortality when it doesn't come with the other power boosts from lich (or the murderous evil drawback).
10) The alchemist grand discovery eternal youth has the exact same wording with a different title. Implying its more a wording then than anything else given again eternal youth doesn't have the "die at maximum age" of abilities like timeless body. Not to mention the philosophers stone and eternal life are very heavily tied to the alchemist and a negate physical penalties is definately not worth a capstone when other choices include true mutagen (+8 to all physical stats no penalties), fast healing 5 and other similar power choices.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o3yo?Immortality-arcane-discovery#22
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mg2k?Ultimate-Magic-wizard-arcane-discovery

Links to Sean saying this is how immortality works for reference note its just a reply in a thread but it is two replies for them so intent at least seems clear even in the absence of an official ruling.


If all you wanted to do was avoid physical penalties of being old, you could cast "Age Resistance" or other versions of it once per day. Since old age is solved, the next step would be immortality.

I like the idea of a Wizard becoming immortal, though I kinda wonder whats stopping them from giving it to all their friends and family. I kinda rule
that its spell that a level 20 Wizard can only learn by spending a whole feat on it, there after it only requires a little bit of light concentration each day to maintain.

Edit: @ Senko. It seems you've edited your post before I posted my reply.


Its simple really. Those abilities do not give you a recipe/spell to make anyone immortal. They gave you a recipe/spell to make yourself immortal.

How it all happens is up to the player and GM. You could simple keep reverting time, you could go all kyubei, it could be a secret fluke in the cosmos, etc.

Just like the ritual for lichdom needs to be personalized for each person.


Temperans wrote:

Its simple really. Those abilities do not give you a recipe/spell to make anyone immortal. They gave you a recipe/spell to make yourself immortal.

How it all happens is up to the player and GM. You could simple keep reverting time, you could go all kyubei, it could be a secret fluke in the cosmos, etc.

Just like the ritual for lichdom needs to be personalized for each person.

that wasn't what the argument was about. the point was that while the name of the discovery is immortality and it's a level 20 ability. it never say anything about not dying of old age. only that the old age ability penalties are removed.

some like to read it as if what it suggest in it's name and flavor say that it is a discovery to never die from old age. Others say that in pathfinder you never get to add stuff that is not mentioned and only get what it say you get. and if it sucks as a capstone well that's not a reason to read the rules wrong.

i can see it ruled ether way. ask your GM i guess or in this case the OP as it was his rules that run the thread.


The one problem with immortality is it does not make you immune to disease. Cancer is a disease so you would probably end up dying anyways. In a Fantasy world the character would have access to magical healing. In the real world with no other characters able to do magic that would not be the case.

The other thing is that there are a lot of things that cause lingering side effect that never go away. Some injuries never quite heal. After time these are going to start adding up. The cumulative effect of these could end causing you to live in incredible pain. At that point immortality becomes a curse rather than a blessing.

Immortality in the real world may not be such a good idea.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Immortality in the real world may not be such a good idea.

I mean - true immortality ends with the heat-death of the universe, where your atoms themselves are ripped apart and you somehow retain consciousness (or at least that's the prevailing theory). But don't worry you'll be incinerated when the sun goes supernova or you're sucked into a black hole long before that. But of course that will feel less painful than watching your species evolves around you and you're left as the last primate in a world full of weird space-creatures (actually this one makes Druid seem a lot more appealing).


I always saw the Immortality Wizard thing as not dying of old age. As has been brought up, the official wizards that are older than maximum lifespan all have the Immortality ability, so it is clear what the intent is.

But even if it isn't, the fact that you don't take Ability Score penalties from old age would in fact have the effect of not dying of old age in real life.

The thing is, creatures don't actually die of old age. They die from their body getting worse and worse with age, and straight up failing. Since that is clearly Ability Score penalties from old age, and you don't take those anymore, you won't die of old age.

So yeah. Take your pick of justification for not dying of old age.

Scarab Sages

Yes I did edit my post sorry.

The thing is that argument about "you never get to add stuff that is not mentioned and only get what it say you get. and if it sucks as a capstone well that's not a reason to read the rules wrong." is those using it ARE adding stuff that's not in the ability. It say's you get a cure for aging and don't get penalties. Timeless body says you die of old age. They then add you dying of old age to the ability when it isn't there. The other abilities that are similar also specifically state you die of maximum age and the fact this one doesn't strong supports the view that you don't. We're not adding things to an ability those claiming you die at maximum age are.

Cancer and disease is an issue yes, in fact one book I enjoy has a guy make a deal with a demon to sacrifice his children for immortality and when two of them manage to survive and escape the demon gives him part of the bargain. He'll not die of old age but he's still vulnerable to disease, illness and accident so at the end of the book he's scurrying off in panic. However this is something we live with anyway whether I expect to live 10 years, 100 years or 10,000 years I could have that cut short tommorow when someone doesn't pay attention and hits me with a car or I get skin cancer or any of a thousand other ways to die. That's life.

This is a cure for aging nothing else so if life gets too hard to bear you can still die well before the heat death of the universe (though see my capstone choice about a one a week safety net against accidental death). Plus live long enough and you may find science developing cures for a lot of little inconveniences.

Speaking purely as a GM I'd have the player give me there reason for immortality (sacrifice your kids, philosophers stone, your own magic sustains you, etc) and if its something you can share with others I'd allow it since as said at this point your character is heading into retirement if not already retiring and technically the game already has an immortality discovery of that nature in the sun orchid elixir. Take every 40 years or so and live "forever" and that's being sold by someone who drinks it themself.


I feel like we're getting slightly off-track, but ...

If we're getting technical, something like 70% of all people die because of something called Atherosclerosis, which is the underlying cause for most heart attacks, strokes and gangrene. It's also the reason a seemingly healthy person in their 30's occasionally drops dead of a heart attack. This really doesn't seem to have a direct connection to age penalties as they're presented, but is more like a gradual decay in a particular body-system that usually isn't felt at all until it suddenly kills you (so there's no gradual penalty associated with it, but it is a gradual build-up to a sudden stop).

I was going to write a quick explanation but it quickly became a long explanation =P

TLDR: You would likely have to fundamentally change the way your body handles injuries on a cellular level to avoid this happening, and solving Atherosclerosis would have no effect on your age penalties or on diseases like cancer. Living forever would require solutions to many separate problems.

Scarab Sages

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MrCharisma wrote:

I feel like we're getting slightly off-track, but ...

If we're getting technical, something like 70% of all people die because of something called Atherosclerosis, which is the underlying cause for most heart attacks, strokes and gangrene. It's also the reason a seemingly healthy person in their 30's occasionally drops dead of a heart attack. This really doesn't seem to have a direct connection to age penalties as they're presented, but is more like a gradual decay in a particular body-system that usually isn't felt at all until it suddenly kills you (so there's no gradual penalty associated with it, but it is a gradual build-up to a sudden stop).

I was going to write a quick explanation but it quickly became a long explanation =P

TLDR: You would likely have to fundamentally change the way your body handles injuries on a cellular level to avoid this happening, and solving Atherosclerosis would have no effect on your age penalties or on diseases like cancer. Living forever would require solutions to many separate problems.

True but this isn't a real life simulator its a game with a lot of issues in the interaction of physics/biology/chemistry/etc e.g light radius, cold weather clothing not offering any protection against cold spells, definitions of weapons (long swords are not what real life long swords are), colossal creatures not being able to crush swarms by hitting the ground their swarming on, a complete lack of concern about calories your "ration" could be entirely celery while your running/fighting/jumping all day, you can "free action" a 12 hour speech, when firing an arrow into melee you either hit your target or miss never hit an adjacent ally by mistake, similarly you either know something or don't never are "Wait Akumentepe I've heard of her something about a curse and a murdered pharoh wasn't it?" even if you don't know her lover murdered the pharoh who considered her his property and was cursed to eternal undeath as a mummy, initiative means you can hit someone then move have someone else move in and hit them then have them react all in the same 6 second window and if you have mythic dual initiative you then move and hit them again before a new round whereupon you hit them yet again and move away again, filling a room with torches doesn't make it any warmer, you need a specific feat to master the complex maneuver of trying to hit someone with everything you have (power attack), you can wale on someone all day with a normal sword with no chance of making them bleed/cutting tendons/breaking bones, there are no instantly lethal poisons, you can fall 30 feet onto spikes pick yourself up and climb out of the pit, the economy, lowlight and darkvision just stop at an arbitrary length from you in violation of how sight works, any form of armour either completely stops a blow from any weapon (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) or does nothing, any per day feat/ability that is not magical/supernatural in nature, diplomacy doesn't work on pc's, if you get a good deal on a diamond you can sell for 25,000 gold it doesn't work as a component because you didn't pay 25,000 gold but if you find it in the ground for free it does, if the fireball detonates exactly on you you take precisely the same damage and have the same chance to dodge as the person on its very edge and more.

So if you were to import the hypothetical cure for aging it would cure all aging related issues (decay of body, atheroscolus, etc) as long as it was a result of aging or related to aging and would only die to non-aging related causes disease, accident, murder.


MrCharisma wrote:

I feel like we're getting slightly off-track, but ...

If we're getting technical, something like 70% of all people die because of something called Atherosclerosis, which is the underlying cause for most heart attacks, strokes and gangrene. It's also the reason a seemingly healthy person in their 30's occasionally drops dead of a heart attack. This really doesn't seem to have a direct connection to age penalties as they're presented, but is more like a gradual decay in a particular body-system that usually isn't felt at all until it suddenly kills you (so there's no gradual penalty associated with it, but it is a gradual build-up to a sudden stop).

I was going to write a quick explanation but it quickly became a long explanation =P

TLDR: You would likely have to fundamentally change the way your body handles injuries on a cellular level to avoid this happening, and solving Atherosclerosis would have no effect on your age penalties or on diseases like cancer. Living forever would require solutions to many separate problems.

Disagree--it's a buildup of garbage on the lining of the blood vessels. That's something that I would say magic at the level of heal or regenerate should deal with.

There is still the telomere death clock, though--presumably that's what anti-aging magic does is resets that clock. (Note that you must be careful about turning that clock off--it's one of our major defenses against cancer.)


I think I'd go with verdant bloodline sorcerer vmc. Making things grow, turning people into plant monsters, lounging in the sun instead of sleeping. At will plant growth is too entertaining an ability to pass up.

Cleric with Vulture domain to reincarnate people would also be a neat trick.

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