Oracle+Thaumaturge: Good, Bad or Ugly?


Advice

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

How would multiclassing into Thaumaturge from Oracle shake out? How about Oracle from Thaumaturge?

I'm still interested in the Oracle, one of my favorite classes from 1e, but I've learned the hard way that the days of the Oradin are long over, and that as a class in 2e, Oracle doesn't play that well with multiclassing...


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Being honest, Thaumaturge MC sucks, the feats of the class are bad so you basically only go there for an implement.

From the implements, wand and bell needs Thaumaturge DC so those are out, Tome and Regalia wants the advanced benefits that you don't get. Amulet and Chalice are fine but Champion is capable of giving both and better, so if you want mirror, lantern or weapon it might work.


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BAD.

Oracle still one of the best base class for many multiclass choices. It works specially well with classes that grants interesting focus spells like druids and some sorcerer bloodlines.

That said I'm don't see too much advantage to multiclass with Thaumaturge Archetype it's just fells in same situation of most spellcasters with martial dedication falls that's the lack of integration of martial feats and spells. Maybe you can do with you want to take some specific feat that you think can be interesting to your char but not to something that really helps to optimize a build. Including the fact that many of the thauma feats can be provided better by other archetypes like Scroll Trickster, Familiar Master, Ritualist or Talisman Dabbler.


Kyrone wrote:

Being honest, Thaumaturge MC sucks, the feats of the class are bad so you basically only go there for an implement.

I think you can go for an implement plus either a familiar, divine disharmony, or talisman esoterica. Divine Disharmony is its own thing that can help ranged rogues or spell attacks on charisma casters, and if you're already there for an implement you might want to pick up a familiar or a couple of talismanas before moving on to something else.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I've learned the hard way that the days of the Oradin are long over

Tangent:

Spoiler:
Champion with multiclass Oracle Dedication for spellcasting is decent to good; oracle with multiclass Champion Dedication is pretty meh. In 2e, it's usually more mechanically effective to add spellcasting to a martial class than to try to add martial ability to a casting class.

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Dragonchess Player wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I've learned the hard way that the days of the Oradin are long over
Tangent: ** spoiler omitted **

Oracle with Champion MC is pretty good, the Champion reaction is godly, can pick non cursebound focus spell that uses charisma and are divine so scales with your natural spellcasting and Heavy armor

Radiant Oath

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But if you aren't picking the cursebound spells and stuff, are you even playing an Oracle, then? It'd be like if I took a weapon proficiency and then just carried around the weapon for show. It'd be superficial.


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It's mostly to fine control the curse lvl, sometimes you are on a very hard battle as a battle Oracle and don't want to go to major curse and become stupefied as you might need to heal someone but still have focus points unused.


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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
But if you aren't picking the cursebound spells and stuff, are you even playing an Oracle, then? It'd be like if I took a weapon proficiency and then just carried around the weapon for show. It'd be superficial.

Unfortunately, this is the way oracle has mostly ended up. Most curses are fairly detrimental and come with focus spells that really aren't all that great. You mostly go oracle for flavor or to take divine access 3 or 4 times. Otherwise, you just pick a better base class.

Doesn't help that both thaumaturge and oracle dedications are pretty bad on the whole, so no matter which direction you go in you're not getting much out of it.

Radiant Oath

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I've looked at the guides for Thaumaturge being written up, and they seem to suggest Oracle Dedication works well with a Thaumaturge, one even suggesting it's one of the best multiclasses a Thumaturge can take. Would going that route be better?


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The Oracle archetype is kind of horrible unfortunately, since you get a really bad curse with no upside. I guess if you just used it as a way to pick up spontaneous spellcasting and ignored all the focus spells that might be fine but like you said earlier you aren't really playing an Oracle if you do that.

If you want to mix the two the best choice is definitely to play an Oracle mystery that wants to make strikes, so Battle Oracle/Thaum. Use an Asp Coil as your weapon implement and you'll be pretty well off.


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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I've looked at the guides for Thaumaturge being written up, and they seem to suggest Oracle Dedication works well with a Thaumaturge, one even suggesting it's one of the best multiclasses a Thumaturge can take. Would going that route be better?

You might get some mileage out of the advanced time oracle spell because it's super good, but it also comes online at level 12 after a 4 feat investment (dedication, level 1-2 feat, initial revelation spell, level/2 feat).

Would I call it one of the best for a thaumaturge? Not when bard, champion (melee builds), gunslinger (ranged), psychic, sentinel (melee) and swashbuckler (ranged) exist. Definitely better to do thaum/oracle than oracle/thaum as a martial.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
gesalt wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I've looked at the guides for Thaumaturge being written up, and they seem to suggest Oracle Dedication works well with a Thaumaturge, one even suggesting it's one of the best multiclasses a Thumaturge can take. Would going that route be better?

You might get some mileage out of the advanced time oracle spell because it's super good, but it also comes online at level 12 after a 4 feat investment (dedication, level 1-2 feat, initial revelation spell, level/2 feat).

Would I call it one of the best for a thaumaturge? Not when bard, champion (melee builds), gunslinger (ranged), psychic, sentinel (melee) and swashbuckler (ranged) exist. Definitely better to do thaum/oracle than oracle/thaum as a martial.

Yeah, that was sorta my bad on the guide. Forgot about the Oracle's Curse still being a thing. I was pretty much just thinking about it being a better divine casting multiclass than the Cleric but yeah, divine Sorcerer is still probably loads better than Oracle. I'll make some corrections in the guide.


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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
But if you aren't picking the cursebound spells and stuff, are you even playing an Oracle, then? It'd be like if I took a weapon proficiency and then just carried around the weapon for show. It'd be superficial.

It's the best kind of oracle IMO: one without a debilitating curse to worry about. Pick up at least 1 focus spell you like to use your focus points on, pretend your Revelation Spells don't exist and then multiclass into a cha casting class or 2 for a pile of spell slots. You can even snag some innate spells since they use cha and scale to your highest spell casting proficiency. For me, oracle is the prefect class to multiclass with because I'm not interested in the curse, there are very few of it's feats I care about and there are PLENTY of cha focused archetypes.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'd hoped Thaumaturge would let me play something I've been struggling with since Oracle first appeared: a way to play a martial mystic tormented by dreams of fire and devastation that start manifesting in the waking world, which he tries to channel into constructive purposes by mastering metalworking...that concept SCREAMS Flame Oracle, but that is one of the LEAST sword-friendly types of Oracle, even IF you multiclass into Champion or even worse, Fighter! So I'd hoped Thaumaturge would synergize better with an Oracle multiclass given their mutual CHA focus, but it looks like my frustration continues...

Liberty's Edge

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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I'd hoped Thaumaturge would let me play something I've been struggling with since Oracle first appeared: a way to play a martial mystic tormented by dreams of fire and devastation that start manifesting in the waking world, which he tries to channel into constructive purposes by mastering metalworking...that concept SCREAMS Flame Oracle, but that is one of the LEAST sword-friendly types of Oracle, even IF you multiclass into Champion or even worse, Fighter! So I'd hoped Thaumaturge would synergize better with an Oracle multiclass given their mutual CHA focus, but it looks like my frustration continues...

Let go of the Flame Oracle and go Cleric or Champion of Angradd. This feels pretty fitting.

Or, maybe conceptually even better, Cleric of Torag with the Splinter faith feat or the Syncretism (Angradd) feat to get the Fire domain.

Radiant Oath

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I was hoping to go with more of a pantheon approach, worshiping creative gods like Torag, Yuelral and Apsu. I COULD include Angradd in there but I worry that might be overdoing it.

Clerics can't do pantheons though, right? They have to pick one deity and stick with them?

Liberty's Edge

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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

I was hoping to go with more of a pantheon approach, worshiping creative gods like Torag, Yuelral and Apsu. I COULD include Angradd in there but I worry that might be overdoing it.

Clerics can't do pantheons though, right? They have to pick one deity and stick with them?

They can pick Pantheons in PF2. The rules are on Archives of Nethys.

You need the GM to approve your pantheon.

And you follow one of the Pantheon's deities as your main divine patron.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm just not sure I like the idea of the fire powers given as a reward for service and faith. The intent was for him to view them as a burden Dahak foisted on him and becoming determined to use them against the god to protect those he cares about...and more than a little bit out of spite. Gods generally dont empower people who hate them, Salim Ghadafar's a special case!

Liberty's Edge

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I'm just not sure I like the idea of the fire powers given as a reward for service and faith. The intent was for him to view them as a burden Dahak foisted on him and becoming determined to use them against the god to protect those he cares about...and more than a little bit out of spite. Salim Ghadafar's supposed to be a special case, I don't just wanna copy him (besides the fact that I can't as 2e doesn't have an Inquisitor class)!

Just flavor it that he never dares use his fire powers outside the very strict discipline granted by his deity.

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