Thaum + scatter guns


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Would this cause my weapon to trigger all the weaknesses of the same creatures?


Weaknesses

Quote:
If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value.

Even if, it would be just the higher ( about the combo, is Thaum from the new book? Couldn't find it on nethys ).


The 6th level feat SYMPATHETIC VULNERABILITIES is needed to trigger mortal weakness on multiple creatures with the same weakness or personal antithesis to multiples of the same creature.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
The 6th level feat SYMPATHETIC VULNERABILITIES is needed to trigger mortal weakness on multiple creatures with the same weakness or personal antithesis to multiples of the same creature.

Incorrect.

At level 1, if it's the same creature, like facing 5 werewolves, it triggers.

Sympathetic allows it to trigger based on having multiple enemies with the same weakness itself such as fighting trolls and mummies at the same time.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
The 6th level feat SYMPATHETIC VULNERABILITIES is needed to trigger mortal weakness on multiple creatures with the same weakness or personal antithesis to multiples of the same creature.

Not quite. Mortal weakness works on multiple creatures of the exact same type without feat enhancememt. If you're fighting a pack of red dragons you get cold weakness on all of them.

Sympathetic Vulnerability let's you deal cold damage to other creatures with the same vulnerability, like if you were fighting fire elementals at the same time.

As to the OP, I'm generally unclear how damage enhancements apply to splash damage, and the Thaumaturge has multiple sources of it, so.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
graystone wrote:
The 6th level feat SYMPATHETIC VULNERABILITIES is needed to trigger mortal weakness on multiple creatures with the same weakness or personal antithesis to multiples of the same creature.

Not quite. Mortal weakness works on multiple creatures of the exact same type without feat enhancememt. If you're fighting a pack of red dragons you get cold weakness on all of them.

Sympathetic Vulnerability let's you deal cold damage to other creatures with the same vulnerability, like if you were fighting fire elementals at the same time.

As to the OP, I'm generally unclear how damage enhancements apply to splash damage, and the Thaumaturge has multiple sources of it, so.

When I was reading both, thematically it makes sense since I am "combining silver to the weapon or amnunition" against creatures weak vs silver.

I'm just not sure if it works mechanically.


My gut instinct is probably not but I don't have a reason why. You could probably convince a gm that the splash damage is part of your strike and therefore would be able to trigger weaknesses on multiple targets. If so, that gives a decent niche to dragon pistol and bombs for thaumaturge.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, assuming that the other enemies are valid from your current Mortal Weakness (or Personal Antithesis with Sympathetic Vulnerability), splash damage from your weapon and unarmed Strikes would trigger the weakness on all valid targets hit.

The splash rules for non-thrown weapons are a little vague, but the splash damage is originating from your Strike so I don't see why it wouldn't count.


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Thaumaturge is not good with guns in general and the dragon mouth pistol is my least favorite gun thanks to it's puny range but this could make up for it's inefficiencies and could be made even better once you can share personal antithesis with the same kind of creatures. Might be the best use case for the dragon mouth. You don't even need to be fancy with your esoterica. You just throw it in with the lead and hope for the best.

Dark Archive

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The alchemist dedication for some bombs however, that would be rather interesting.


Old_Man_Robot wrote:
The alchemist dedication for some bombs however, that would be rather interesting.

Another good multiclass for bombs is Gunslinger, their Munitions Crafter feat line gets better advanced alchemy level than Alchemist MC.

Alchemist MC can do more than bombs though and also gets stuff like quick bomber and far lobber.

Dark Archive

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Alchemist always brings with it access to more healing options and cognitive mutagen. Cog Mutagen + Revivifying Mutagen are a solid gameplay loop for Thaumaturges to help push their ES Lore rolls that bit higher, and with RM to take away the penalty once the check is made.

Having splash damage on the bombs to trigger weakness as well, makes for a very compelling build.


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Old_Man_Robot wrote:
The alchemist dedication for some bombs however, that would be rather interesting.

Bombaturge was my immediate first thought when I saw the class. Unlike scatter guns, bombs splash even on a miss, so chucking a quick bomb even on a long shot as a filler action is quite solid

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Bombaturge

That word is just wonderful.

Liberty's Edge

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Alchemist always brings with it access to more healing options and cognitive mutagen. Cog Mutagen + Revivifying Mutagen are a solid gameplay loop for Thaumaturges to help push their ES Lore rolls that bit higher, and with RM to take away the penalty once the check is made.

Having splash damage on the bombs to trigger weakness as well, makes for a very compelling build.

Oh man, I hadn't even thought of that, even if you just eschew the Dedication and simply buy your own bombs this has the potential to be MASSIVELY powerful... I have research to do...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Themetricsystem wrote:
Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Alchemist always brings with it access to more healing options and cognitive mutagen. Cog Mutagen + Revivifying Mutagen are a solid gameplay loop for Thaumaturges to help push their ES Lore rolls that bit higher, and with RM to take away the penalty once the check is made.

Having splash damage on the bombs to trigger weakness as well, makes for a very compelling build.

Oh man, I hadn't even thought of that, even if you just eschew the Dedication and simply buy your own bombs this has the potential to be MASSIVELY powerful... I have research to do...

I thought splash damage with Exploit Vulnerability was broken at first but at early levels it's going to eat up so many resources and by the time you have plenty of bombs, the damage doesn't make it worthwhile on its own. It's still a nice combo and nice effect (sort of negates having to ever take Twin Weakness) but the splash damage is nothing to rely or focus on from what I can tell.


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As usual for all non-alchemist bombers, the supply is a huge issue.

Multiclassing gets you really crappy bombs (and bombs are already delayed 1 level compared to weapons) and you also get so few of them. They're also very expensive if you're gonna buy on-level bombs.

If you want to keep a bomb for a MAP-5 or MAP-10 attack as a backup you'll run into the issue of hands. Even if you have Quick Draw you need some kind of Quick Stow as well or the action economy is gonna be real bad.


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Onkonk wrote:

As usual for all non-alchemist bombers, the supply is a huge issue.

Multiclassing gets you really crappy bombs (and bombs are already delayed 1 level compared to weapons) and you also get so few of them. They're also very expensive if you're gonna buy on-level bombs.

If you want to keep a bomb for a MAP-5 or MAP-10 attack as a backup you'll run into the issue of hands. Even if you have Quick Draw you need some kind of Quick Stow as well or the action economy is gonna be real bad.

Drow Shootist + Repeating Crossbow can help with this since you get a Draw+Shoot, and Shoot+Stow action. So you can start a combat with a bomb in your hand and throw it for the persistent damage. Then you can Draw+Shoot for one action. If you need to throw a bomb later you can Shoot+Stow and then throw a bomb (quick draw if you have the alchemist feat). This gives you a pretty good way of mixing in bombs and regular crossbow strikes.

Also lets you conserve bombs by using a crossbow and using bombs to apply persistent damage or hit clumps on enemies (using exploit weakness/shared vulnerabilities if they apply) instead of trying to use bombs every turn.

It is very feat heavy to do both Drow Shootist and Gunslinger/Alchemist though.

IMO Drow Shootist is almost mandatory for ranged Thaumaturges unless you are going with a throwing build.


Nauta wrote:
IMO Drow Shootist is almost mandatory for ranged Thaumaturges unless you are going with a throwing build.

Air repeater works: they are simple and characters from Alkenstar, Dongun Hold, Tian Xia, Vudra, Arcadia, Ustalav and the Shackles have access [no feats needed plus they have 1 more shot than the crossbow and even have agile if you want to make multiple shots. The only downside is the d4 vs the crossbows d6.


graystone wrote:
Nauta wrote:
IMO Drow Shootist is almost mandatory for ranged Thaumaturges unless you are going with a throwing build.
Air repeater works: they are simple and characters from Alkenstar, Dongun Hold, Tian Xia, Vudra, Arcadia, Ustalav and the Shackles have access [no feats needed plus they have 1 more shot than the crossbow and even have agile if you want to make multiple shots. The only downside is the d4 vs the crossbows d6.

And the range.


graystone wrote:
Nauta wrote:
IMO Drow Shootist is almost mandatory for ranged Thaumaturges unless you are going with a throwing build.
Air repeater works: they are simple and characters from Alkenstar, Dongun Hold, Tian Xia, Vudra, Arcadia, Ustalav and the Shackles have access [no feats needed plus they have 1 more shot than the crossbow and even have agile if you want to make multiple shots. The only downside is the d4 vs the crossbows d6.

Thats true, I forget about them. Also don't really like the feel of using just a pellet gun, it feels weird though the agile is nice.

Drow Shootist can give you actions saving when you reload though. Down to two actions or with running reload 2 actions for a reload+stride which is very good.


Nauta wrote:
graystone wrote:
Nauta wrote:
IMO Drow Shootist is almost mandatory for ranged Thaumaturges unless you are going with a throwing build.
Air repeater works: they are simple and characters from Alkenstar, Dongun Hold, Tian Xia, Vudra, Arcadia, Ustalav and the Shackles have access [no feats needed plus they have 1 more shot than the crossbow and even have agile if you want to make multiple shots. The only downside is the d4 vs the crossbows d6.

Thats true, I forget about them. Also don't really like the feel of using just a pellet gun, it feels weird though the agile is nice.

Drow Shootist can give you actions saving when you reload though. Down to two actions or with running reload 2 actions for a reload+stride which is very good.

Sure but you aren't starting off with a repeating crossbow with Drow Shootist [4th level and 2 feats in]. So even if you go for repeating crossbow, you might still want the air repeater for 3 levels.

As to the reloads... Meh. I don't often have fights go long enough to worry about reloading a repeating weapon in combat if you're shooting 1/round as you would with wand & weapon. Now if you aren't going wand then it might come in handy.

aobst128 wrote:
graystone wrote:
Nauta wrote:
IMO Drow Shootist is almost mandatory for ranged Thaumaturges unless you are going with a throwing build.
Air repeater works: they are simple and characters from Alkenstar, Dongun Hold, Tian Xia, Vudra, Arcadia, Ustalav and the Shackles have access [no feats needed plus they have 1 more shot than the crossbow and even have agile if you want to make multiple shots. The only downside is the d4 vs the crossbows d6.
And the range.

Yep, meant to include that but missed it somehow.


If you have that Thaumaturge reloading feat at 1st level, then a Pepper Box or a Slide Pistol might not be bad guns to use. Their capacity trait lets you reload them even if your other hand isn't free (like say, for example, if it's holding a skull that you drink wine out of or a glowstick that you insist originated in old Thassilon).


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Ventnor wrote:
If you have that Thaumaturge reloading feat at 1st level, then a Pepper Box or a Slide Pistol might not be bad guns to use. Their capacity trait lets you reload them even if your other hand isn't free (like say, for example, if it's holding a skull that you drink wine out of or a glowstick that you insist originated in old Thassilon).

Do you mean if you don't have that feat? Because that's exactly what that feat does without the need for capacity.


Huh. Must have remembered it wrong. Yeah, I guess that would be the case if you want to get a different 1st level feat instead.

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