Ultimate Rogue — re-unchaining the Rogue


Homebrew and House Rules

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I believe I'm not the only one here that thinks that rogues underperform as a class. They are obviously worse combatants than your average martial (likely on purpose) but they are often outshined by every other skill monkey class in the game in terms of utility and specifically in skill availability and competency (they start with the highest amount of skill ranks per level, but your average investigator that is likely going to have a high Intelligence score and inspiration will not only end up having more skills but also rolling higher than a rogue, while also beign more accurate through studied combat and with extracts to support himself and his allies).

For those people I came up with the following re-unchaining of the rogue class, that aims to make rogues slightly more combat oriented and much better at skill monkey-ing. I tried to keep them 100% compatible with both the unchained and core rogue for the purpose of archetypes and I decided to keep what I believe is what makes a rogue a rogue. Without further ado, here is the Ultimate Rogue.

Ultimate Rogue — re-unchaining the Rogue

Hit Die: d8.
Starting Wealth: 4d6 x 10 gp.

Class Skills
The Rogue (Ultimate)'s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points per Level: 8 + Int modifier.

Base Attack Bonus: 3/4
Good Saves: Reflex, Will
Bad Saves: Fortitude

CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Rogue’s Edge (Ex): At 1st level, her diverse training as a rogue grants her a +1 competence bonus to skill checks. In addition, a rogue has mastered two skills beyond those skill’s normal boundaries, gaining results that others can only dream about. A rogue considers the chosen skills as class skills (if they weren't before) and she gains a number of ranks equal to her rogue level in those skills. If the rogue already has ranks in the chosen skills, she can immediately relocate them into one or more skills of her choice (this does not allow her to exceed the maximum number of skill ranks in a single skill). Starting at 5th level, she gains the skill unlock powers for those skills as appropriate for her number of ranks in those skills.

At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the competence bonus on skill checks increases by 1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level, and she chooses an additional skill and considers it as a class skill (if it wasn't before) and she gains a number of skill ranks equal to her rogue level and the skill unlock powers for that skill as appropriate for her number of ranks in that skill.

Sneak Attack: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Trapfinding: A rogue doubles her rogue’s edge bonus on Perception checks to locate traps and on Disable Device checks. A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Evasion (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Rogue Talents: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature. All talents from the core and unchained rogue classes can be used with the ultimate rogue without modification.

Danger Sense (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Finesse Training (Ex): A rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level. In addition, whenever a rogue makes a successful melee attack with a light melee weapon or a melee weapon that may allow her to add her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on attack rolls (such as rapiers or daggers) or a successful ranged attack with a thrown weapon (such as daggers or starknifes), she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier.

Debilitating Injury (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Advanced Talents: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Master Strike (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Rogue Talents: An ultimate rogue has access to the following rogue talents.

Efficient Forager (Ex): A rogue with this talent can move at her full overland speed when using Survival while hunting and foraging, and a successful check provides food and water for an additional number of creatures equal to her rogue’s edge bonus.

Ever Vigilant (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat. In addition, a rogue adds the bonus from rogue’s edge to her initiative checks.

Feinting Trick: A rogue who selects this talent gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If the target is currently afflicted with a penalty due to her debilitating injury class feature and if she is currently flanking that target, she can feint that target as a swift action. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites for Greater Feint (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Firearm Training (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains the Amateur Gunslinger and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feats. She must fulfill the prerequisites as normal.

Improved Combat Swipe: A rogue with this talent gains Quick Steal as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If she succeeds in taking an item from a foe, that creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against her attacks as long the rogue keeps the stolen item in her free hand or until the beginning of her next turn. If the rogue succeeds in taking an item from that same foe in subsequent turns, she can immediately stow the previously stolen item as part of the same action used to acquire the new one. A rogue must have the combat swipe rogue talent and be at least 6th level to select talent.

Improved Underhanded Trick: A rogue with this talent gains Quick Dirty Trick as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 8th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Superior Dirty Trick (although she must take the feat to gain its benefits). A rogue must have the underhanded trick talent and be at least 6th level to select this talent.

Investigator Talent (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a talent from the investigator talent list, using her rogue level as her investigator level for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. The rogue cannot choose an investigator talent with the same name as a rogue talent. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require an inspiration pool, unless she has an inspiration pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.

Leap Attack: A rogue who selects this talent gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. As part of Spring Attack, the rogue can instead make an Acrobatics check against the target’s CMD to jump over her target and land at least 5 feet away from it. If successful, she can make a single melee attack at the moment she passes above it without provoking any attacks of opportunity from her target, which causes the target to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against that attack. The rogue gets a running start for the purposes of this talent. A rogue must be at least 4th level to select this talent.

Line Up: A rogue who selects this talent gains Gang Up as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If at least one of her allies is threatening an opponent, the rogue is considered to be flanking opponent regardless of her actual positioning if both the rogue and her ally can draw a line between the center of her space and the center of her ally's space which must pass through opposite sides or opposite corners of the opponent's space.

Monster Lore (Ex): A rogue with this talent doubles her rogue’s edge bonus to skill checks when identifying a monster’s special abilities and weaknesses with all Knowledge skill checks. A rogue may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained for this purpose.

Occult Mysticism (Ex): The rogue has unlocked the secrets of the occult world. The rogue gains Psychic Sensitivity as a bonus feat. If she already has Psychic Sensitivity or the ability to cast psychic spells, she instead gains another feat that lists Psychic Sensitivity as a prerequisite. A rogue can use occult skill unlocks even if she is untrained with that skill.

Psychic Adept: A rogue with this talent gains Psychic Adept as a bonus feat, except she can cast this spell at will as a spell-like ability. If the rogue does not have the Psychic Sensitivity feat or the ability to cast psychic spells, she also receives Psychic Sensitivity as a bonus feat. This otherwise functions and is considered as having the minor magic rogue talent for the purpose of meeting other rogue talent prerequisites. If the rogue later selects the major magic rogue talent, she can instead gain the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the psychic spell list. A rogue must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 to select this talent.

Rogue Tricks: The rogue gains one of the following feats as a bonus feat: Armor Trick, Equipment Trick, Magic Trick, or Weapon Trick. She uses her rogue level in place of her base attack bonus to determine if she meets the prerequisites of a trick. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time, the rogue gains a new feat from the above list.

Signature Skill (Ex): A rogue with this ability immediately selects an additional skill with her rogue’s edge. A rogue can select this talent multiple times. Each time, she must choose a different skill. A rogue must have the rogue’s edge class feature before selecting this talent.

Social Talent (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a talent from the vigilante social talent list, using her rogue level as her vigilante level for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. For the purposes of vigilante social talents, the rogue does not have a vigilante identity and is always considered to be in her social identity. The rogue cannot choose a vigilante social talent with the same name as a rogue talent. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.

Strong Impression: A rogue who selects this talent gains Intimidating Prowess as a bonus feat. This talent counts as the Dazzling Display feat and she uses her rogue level in place of her base attack bonus for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of any feat that lists Dazzling Display as a prerequisite. A rogue must meet other prerequisites as normal.

Superior Sniper: A rogue who selects this talent gains Expert Sniper as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Master Sniper (although she must take the feat to gain its benefits).

Two-Weapon Master: A rogue who selects this talent gains Two-Weapon Feint as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If she is using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee or ranged attacks, a rogue can forgo her first primary-hand attack to make a Bluff check to feint. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites for Improved Two-Weapon Feint (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits). The rogue must have the two-weapon trick talent before choosing this talent.

Two-Weapon Trick: A rogue who selects this talent gains Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and at 10th level if she possess Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, she also meets all the prerequisites for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (although she must take each feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Unbalancing Trick (Ex): The rogue gains Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If she succeeds in tripping her target, that creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against her attacks as long as it remains prone. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Greater Trip (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Underhanded Disarm: A rogue who selects this talent gains Dirty Disarm as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She can attempt a single combat maneuver check or Sleight of Hand check for both maneuvers. A rogue must have the weapon snatcher and underhanded trick rogue talents and be at least 6th level to select this talent.

Unseeing Stalker: A rogue who selects this talent gains Blind-Fight as a bonus feat. She is considered as having darkvision and low-light vision for the purposes of meeting Moonlight Stalker prerequisites and with other feats that have Moonlight Stalker as a prerequisite.

Weapon Snatcher (Ex): The rogue gains Improved Disarm as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent. She receives any bonuses the rogue may have on combat maneuver checks made to disarm a foe on the Sleight of Hand check for this purpose. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Greater Disarm (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Weapon Training (Ex): The rogue must select one type of weapon (such as longsword or crossbow) when she gains this talent. She gains proficiency with that type of weapon (if she wasn't before) and the Weapon Focus feat as a bonus feat for her selected weapon type.

Wild Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the druid spell list. This otherwise functions and is considered as having the minor magic rogue talent for the purpose of meeting other rogue talent prerequisites, except that the rogue uses her Wisdom score instead of her Intelligence score. If the rogue later selects the major magic rogue talent, she can instead gain the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the druid spell list. The rogue must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 to select this talent.

The following rogue talents replace their bonuses with instead double her rogue’s edge bonus: Camouflage, Canny Observer, False Friend, Getaway Artist, Innocuous Servant, Just a Face in the Crowd, Maneuvering Dodge, Nimble Climber, Riding Stunt, Scavenger, Sczarni Smuggler, Strong Stroke, Underhanded, and Wall Scramble.

The following rogue talents replace their bonuses by instead adding her rogue’s edge bonus: Acrobatic Assist, Convincing Lie, Iron Guts, and Rope Master.

Advanced Talents: An ultimate rogue has access to the following advanced talents.

Getaway Master (Ex): A rogue with this talent triples her rogue’s edge bonus on all drive checks. This bonus doesn’t stack with the bonus granted by the getaway artist talent and replaces it. The rogue must have the getaway artist rogue talent before choosing this talent.

Jack of All Trades (Ex): A rogue knows how to handle any situation. She can use all skills untrained, and doubles her rogue’s edge bonus when using a skill in which she has no ranks.

Master of Disguise (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can don a disguise as a standard action. While wearing that disguise, she triples her rogue’s edge bonus on all Disguise checks. A rogue must have the quick disguise talent to select this talent.


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But it ought to be possible to build a half-decent (un)rogue without ludicrous levels of system mastery, and without consigning 95% of the options to the bin. The unrogue is just about playable, but still a tier 4 class. It's nowhere near as capable (or survivable) as an investigator, slayer, inquisitor or any 9-caster. The rules out of the box don't really enable it to be the classic sneaky stabby skill-monkey thief, so it does need help.

I've not read all this proposal (tldr, so far) but I'm certainly not going to say it's unwarranted.


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I suggest reading up on how vigilante talents are structured and how the phantom thief works.

Reading what you have posted and it seems like you effectively made a phantom thief that doesn't replace any Rogue class features. The trade of for that archetype being quite literally the best at skills (no one will convince me otherwise) is that it relies on being smart about how you get better damage. The opposite of the fighter that relies on being smart about how they get better skills.

Having said that, I wish you luck on balancing things properly.

******************

P.S. Bards is a stretch because a lot of their thing are limited while Rogues get it constantly. So its more a matter of casters in general having stronger abilities X times a day then Rogues being the worse at things.

P.S.S. Having a bonus to all knowledge checks while in theory is good, is usually not needed. Specially the ability to take 10/20 mid combat on knowledge is of questionable use.


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It doesn't take system mastery to build an effective Rogue... don't fall for stupid traps, just like any other class... understand your limitations, just like any other class. And, if you aren't interested in 95% of the options available to a Rogue, you probably should play a different freaking class. Lol. Rogues are all about options.

I don't quite understand the comparison with Bards and Inquisitors... especially after saying Rogues are martials... or hybrid classes that are also half Rogue. Could have compared Rogues to other martials... or at least not been surprised when hybrid classes that are half Rogue can do Rogue stuff AND MORE.

I'm the last person that should be defending the Rogue class, honestly. It's one of my favorite classes to make fun of. I am constantly casting shade on Rogues, but I still don't think the class needs more help than UnChained already provides. I think GM's, in general, need to do better making skills a bigger part of gameplay. I think GM's need to use a lot more traps, overall. I think Rogues were designed to excel at parts of the game lazy GM's skip entirely. And that is no fault of the class, it is simply the way PF1 evolved to cater to murderhobos instead of roleplayers.

I honestly couldn't care less about the weapon proficiencies. That was a big thing brought up earlier, figured it deserves a response. No build is limited to the weapon proficiencies of the class... there are races with proficiencies, traits, feats, ioun stones... cry me a freaking river, build a bridge, and get TF over it. Plenty of builds can be effective, even using "just" simple weapons. Rogues only get 4 martial weapons and one exotic weapon... Fighters and Barbarians don't get any exotic weapons from the start... most classes don't. Why are we complaining?

People are just silly... taking TWF and Pirahna Strike on a 3/4 BAB class with no built-in accuracy boost... why can't I hit anything? Rogues are terrible. Boo-hoo.

Don't be dumb. The class is fine.


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Temperans wrote:

I suggest reading up on how vigilante talents are structured and how the phantom thief works.

Reading what you have posted and it seems like you effectively made a phantom thief that doesn't replace any Rogue class features. The trade of for that archetype being quite literally the best at skills (no one will convince me otherwise) is that it relies on being smart about how you get better damage. The opposite of the fighter that relies on being smart about how they get better skills.

Having said that, I wish you luck on balancing things properly.

******************

P.S. Bards is a stretch because a lot of their thing are limited while Rogues get it constantly. So its more a matter of casters in general having stronger abilities X times a day then Rogues being the worse at things.

P.S.S. Having a bonus to all knowledge checks while in theory is good, is usually not needed. Specially the ability to take 10/20 mid combat on knowledge is of questionable use.

Yeah, phantom thieves are pretty much the best class with skills maybe, but otherwise you are a glorified expert. Intimidate builds are really good with phantom thieves, but you aren't smart with how you do damage, you do the only thing you can pretty much do to be somewhat effective at combat. Out of combat you are a god, but in combat you can feel a little bland.

IMO Phantom thief should have 1/2 sneak attack die progression (1st, 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level). The default PF2e rogue is pretty much a phantom thief rogue from PF1e and it has 1/2 sneak attack die progression (technically less because it caps at 4d6s, but anyways).

Edit: I forgot to add this when I wrote this.

Bards have limited uses on their abilities, but what abilities do rogue's have? Plus, having the ability to take 10 and 20 in combat can define victory. The bard goes and identifies the abilities and weaknesses of the enemy and then everyone immediately knows what they do not have to do to die. But I didn't mention that ability because its utility in combat, I mentioned it because bards have tons of abilities to support their skill monkey-ness while rogues do not have a single skill monkey class feature besides skill unlocks (which as I already said, can be taken with Signature Skill by anyone).


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VoodistMonk wrote:

It doesn't take system mastery to build an effective Rogue... don't fall for stupid traps, just like any other class... understand your limitations, just like any other class. And, if you aren't interested in 95% of the options available to a Rogue, you probably should play a different freaking class. Lol. Rogues are all about options.

I don't quite understand the comparison with Bards and Inquisitors... especially after saying Rogues are martials... or hybrid classes that are also half Rogue. Could have compared Rogues to other martials... or at least not been surprised when hybrid classes that are half Rogue can do Rogue stuff AND MORE.

I'm the last person that should be defending the Rogue class, honestly. It's one of my favorite classes to make fun of. I am constantly casting shade on Rogues, but I still don't think the class needs more help than UnChained already provides. I think GM's, in general, need to do better making skills a bigger part of gameplay. I think GM's need to use a lot more traps, overall. I think Rogues were designed to excel at parts of the game lazy GM's skip entirely. And that is no fault of the class, it is simply the way PF1 evolved to cater to murderhobos instead of roleplayers.

I honestly couldn't care less about the weapon proficiencies. That was a big thing brought up earlier, figured it deserves a response. No build is limited to the weapon proficiencies of the class... there are races with proficiencies, traits, feats, ioun stones... cry me a freaking river, build a bridge, and get TF over it. Plenty of builds can be effective, even using "just" simple weapons. Rogues only get 4 martial weapons and one exotic weapon... Fighters and Barbarians don't get any exotic weapons from the start... most classes don't. Why are we complaining?

People are just silly... taking TWF and Pirahna Strike on a 3/4 BAB class with no built-in accuracy boost... why can't I hit anything? Rogues are terrible. Boo-hoo.

Don't be dumb. The class is fine.

So you are basically saying that I'm right in saying that rogues are subpar but that they are fine because you can still make a decent rogue with what we have already?

Why would I compare a rogue to a fighter? Its obvious that the fighter is a better combatant but a worse skill monkey. Rogues are both martial and skill monkey characters, but they are clearly inclined to the skill monkey side of their class, so I compared them to other skill monkey characters.

You said that rogues are bad because GMs don't make skills a part of gameplay, but as I said in the previous comment, why would you choose to make a rogue when you want to play a skill monkey when everyone can do what a rogue can. Everyone can roll as high as a rogue, other skill monkeys can have as much skills if not more than rogues, even other classes can have access to that skill unlock they want, there is no purpose to play them, and I'm saying this as someone that likes rogues.


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I think "skill monkey" is a box, an outdated box, at that... like "tank" or "healer". It's not actually a role within a team dynamic. Skills are everyone's problem... you don't just get to expect certain things like that. Rogues get lots of skills, sure. That isn't their [Rogues'] freaking purpose, though. And thinking that way only penalizes the Rogue... glorified Expert. Lol.

Fighters are better combatants... at some types of combat, yes. There are entire combat scenarios, perhaps even campaigns, where Rogue archetypes offer much more potential than those of the Fighter... in regards to combat, specifically. That may not be true more most combats, or widest spectrum of possible combats... we have Fighters for a reason. But you don't play a freaking Rogue if you're trying to be a Fighter. Toe-to-toe combat is not what a Rogue is meant for... in fact, that style of play shouldn't really even enter one's mind when the word "rogue" is mentioned.

The class [cRogue/UnRogue] is far from perfect, but it does do exactly what it's supposed to do. It just seems people's expectations cloud their ability to take the class for what it is. I get making outdated Talents more useful by rewriting them, or adding entirely new Talents within reason. But trying to make the class compete with this or that from what-TF-ever else happens to exist is always going to end in disappointment.

Who gives a $#!+ what stupid tier rank it is? We can't all be tier one Exploiter Wizards or whatever... going to rewrite every other tier four class? No, that's silly... if everything is the same, it's going to be lame and boring. Let some things be better than others. Can it be fun? Can it be effective? The answer to both is, yes.

The class is fine.


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Note we are not saying that the efforts are in vain. But that you should focus those efforts on things that excentuate what a rogue is beyond just "deals damage" and "is a skill monkey".

The reason I brought up phantom thief is that your changes effectively make that entire archetype invalid by making a better version of it and calling it the default rogue. When phantom thief that can do damage should not be the default.

The reason I suggest to look at how vigilante talents work is that vigilante has the social talents (largely just for flavor and RP) and vigilante talents (largely just for combat). But then they don't really get anything else (stunning entrance are just 1/combat). Rogues get more stuff as part of their base, which means that less of it should come from their talents. But something that you can copy is the eay things scale.

Instead if just "get X feat and count as having the pre-reqs" you can do things like "get X feat and at level Y you can do some unique rogue thing". Rewards players for taking multiple levels in rogue, while also carrying more of the spirit of the class.


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VoodistMonk wrote:
Fighters are better combatants... at some types of combat, yes. There are entire combat scenarios, perhaps even campaigns, where Rogue archetypes offer much more potential than those of the Fighter... in regards to combat, specifically. That may not be true more most combats, or widest spectrum of possible combats... we have Fighters for a reason. But you don't play a freaking Rogue if you're trying to be a Fighter. Toe-to-toe combat is not what a Rogue is meant for... in fact, that style of play shouldn't really even enter one's mind when the word "rogue" is mentioned.

Your answer seems to imply that I compared rogues to fighters, when I explicitly said it was meaningless comparing those two because they don't have anything in common with each other besides being technically martial classes.

I even said this in the original post.

exequiel759 wrote:
For those people I came up with the following re-unchaining of the rogue class, that aims to make rogues slightly more combat oriented and much better at skill monkey-ing.

Rogues are actually fine at combat as they are, they rely perhaps a little too much on their allies to trigger their class features, but otherwise they deliver in the promise of playing a "backstabby opportunist". The problem with rogues comes from their lack of class features to make them competent with skill checks or at least give them some versatility with them (skill unlocks help a little though) and skills themselves, which is a problem of the system itself rather than a rogue's problem.

Every skill monkey in the game has to deal with how skills are much more scarce and weaker when compared to spells, but those classes unlike rogues often have something to make up for the inherent weakness of skills. Bards have spells and bardic performances/masterpieces, investigators have extracts and inspiration, just to name a few classes.

What does a rogue have?

8 + Int skills. Pretty good, huh? At 1st level you are unparalleled when talking about trained skills, right? Well, without a proper reason to invest into Intelligence an investigator is likely to begin with the same amount of skills than rogues do and because of that investigators will eventually have more skill ranks per level than rogues. What about bards? Yeah, they start with less skills than rogues, but due to the existance of versatile performances and the peagent of the peacock masterpiece a bard can effectively use a single Perform category to replace at least 16 skills (14 Int-based skills, 2 from versatile performance) at 4th level. What do rogues have at those levels? A +2 to disable traps and one skill unlock.


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Temperans wrote:

Note we are not saying that the efforts are in vain. But that you should focus those efforts on things that excentuate what a rogue is beyond just "deals damage" and "is a skill monkey".

The reason I brought up phantom thief is that your changes effectively make that entire archetype invalid by making a better version of it and calling it the default rogue. When phantom thief that can do damage should not be the default.

The reason I suggest to look at how vigilante talents work is that vigilante has the social talents (largely just for flavor and RP) and vigilante talents (largely just for combat). But then they don't really get anything else (stunning entrance are just 1/combat). Rogues get more stuff as part of their base, which means that less of it should come from their talents. But something that you can copy is the eay things scale.

Instead if just "get X feat and count as having the pre-reqs" you can do things like "get X feat and at level Y you can do some unique rogue thing". Rewards players for taking multiple levels in rogue, while also carrying more of the spirit of the class.

I plan to tackle on the phantom thief eventually, but even in its current iteration I don't see how this would hurt the phantom thief because a phantom thief has 10 skill unlocks over his career, while the ultimate rogue has 6. Obviously the new phantom thief should double the rogue's edge bonus with his chosen skills, which makes it immediately a much better skill monkey than this default rogue.

I'm also aware of how the vigilante works, but I don't think that this should follow a similar progression to the vigilante's because, well, the vigilante already exists! It would also make this homebrewed rogue incompatible with the archetypes that already exists for the class and I'm explicitly avoiding that.


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Ok, to get back to the proposed alternate class:

1) There is a lot of incentive to take a single level: You first get the usual rogue dip benefits (class skills, skill ranks, +2 Reflex, sneak attack, trapfinding; Weapon Finesse for Unchained). On top of that you gain Dex to damage (which is usually level 3 / gated behind Weapon Focus), a +1 to all skills (which is far beyond a feat or racial ability), potentially two further class skills and your trapfinding bonuses get doubled.

2) If a rogue can max out 8+Int skills already, there is limited benefit in adding 2 to 6 further skills which are automatically maxed out (Rogue's Edge). I see a lot of people dumping Int due to this, and such a pattern is opposed to the ideal of having a lot of different builds (and hence charcters) for the same class.

3) I don't see whether you abandon the rogue talents you didn't mention. The description of Wild Magic sounds like Major Magic is still possible, but the sentence at rogue talents implies that only the explicitely listed options are available.


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SheepishEidolon wrote:

Ok, to get back to the proposed alternate class:

1) There is a lot of incentive to take a single level: You first get the usual rogue dip benefits (class skills, skill ranks, +2 Reflex, sneak attack, trapfinding; Weapon Finesse for Unchained). On top of that you gain Dex to damage (which is usually level 3 / gated behind Weapon Focus), a +1 to all skills (which is far beyond a feat or racial ability), potentially two further class skills and your trapfinding bonuses get doubled.

2) If a rogue can max out 8+Int skills already, there is limited benefit in adding 2 to 6 further skills which are automatically maxed out (Rogue's Edge). I see a lot of people dumping Int due to this, and such a pattern is opposed to the ideal of having a lot of different builds (and hence charcters) for the same class.

3) I don't see whether you abandon the rogue talents you didn't mention. The description of Wild Magic sounds like Major Magic is still possible, but the sentence at rogue talents implies that only the explicitely listed options are available.

I disagree with the following in your 1): I don't see the amount of skill ranks particularly appealing for a dip since regardless of what your main class it likely has lower than 10 + Int skill ranks per level, so you will end up with lots of skills with 1 rank essentialy and myself and many others I know pretty much always choose to max out skills, though it could certainly be considered a boost for some. About the +2 reflex, trapfinding and the +1 bonus to skill checks, that is pretty much the same bonuses that a dip into investigator gives you, plus 1st-level extracts. I don't consider 1d6 sneak attack a big deal as well, a dip into barbarian pretty much gives you the same damage, plus other bonuses related to increasing your Str/Con. However, you are right about finesse training and it probably makes rogues a little too dip friendly, though I really don't like that rogues have to wait to 3rd level to do damage. 1d4 plus 1d6 sneak attack (average 6) isn't really a lot of damage when your average Str-based character is dealing more damage only with their weapon's damage die (a greatsword, for example, deals 7 average damage without taking into account your Str mod).

Edit: Also, a dip into archaeologist bard pretty much already gives +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks (double this amount with Knowledge checks), weapon damage rolls, and 1st level spells. Since fate's favored exists, I would consider this much more dip friendly than a rogue (besides the finesse thing).

About 2), there are 35 skills in the game (37 if we take Artistry and Lore from Background Skills) and rogues would get immediately trained with at least 10 of them. That means that a rogue begins trained with a number of skills somewhat closer to 1/3 of the total skil list, or even less if we take into account the multiple Craft, Perform and Profession categories (and Artistry and Lore categories for those using Background Skills). Since rogues are not forced into Int, Wis or Cha they can choose whatever skills they want and even if every other rogue is trained into Perception and Sense Motive only a Wis-based rogue would have a high bonus on those skills, while others while trained in the skill will have it lower. I don't see your choice of trained skills as defining for your character when you are playing as a character that is supposed to be skilled to begin with, skills define how your character interacts with the world and how good he is with those interactions. PF2e rogues can even be trained in every skill at 1st level and they still have deep and multiple builds to choose from.

About 3), I explicitly stated that "all talents from the core and unchained rogue class can be used with the ultimate rogue without modification". So the answer would be yes, you can use all the current rogue talents with ultimate rogue. I pretty much mentioned major magic already in wild magic (a talent that already exists in PF that I redesigned for this homebrew) so that should have been a clue.


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exequiel759 wrote:
...However, you are right about finesse training and it probably makes rogues a little too dip friendly, though I really don't like that rogues have to wait to 3rd level to do damage.

The way I handle that is that the dex-to-damage bonus is equal to your rogue level or your dex bonus, whichever is less, starting at 1st level. So you don't end up with your 7 Str 19 Dex halfling doing a useless 1d3-2 at 1st level suddenly jumping to 1d3+4 at 3rd; it's 1d3+1 at 1st, 1d3+2 at 2nd, 1d3+3 at 3rd, 1d3+4 at 4th and probably 1d3+5 at 5th.

As for exequiel's proposal...looks OK, in that there's nothing that sticks out. Forager is a Nobody Will Take This feature, but you knew that. Jack of All trades is pretty weak, even as a normal talent.

The Rogue's Edge thing is a bit clunky, in that it introduces brand new skills at expert levels out of nowhere every 5 levels. The increasing bonus is fine, and more edges is fine, but you could just provide more skill points (say, 10+int) and be done with it rather than adding brand new skills.

FWIW, I'm considering giving rogues unlocks for all skills automatically if they have enough rogue levels and enough skill points. I don't think it'll break anything.


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Mudfoot wrote:
exequiel759 wrote:
...However, you are right about finesse training and it probably makes rogues a little too dip friendly, though I really don't like that rogues have to wait to 3rd level to do damage.

The way I handle that is that the dex-to-damage bonus is equal to your rogue level or your dex bonus, whichever is less, starting at 1st level. So you don't end up with your 7 Str 19 Dex halfling doing a useless 1d3-2 at 1st level suddenly jumping to 1d3+4 at 3rd; it's 1d3+1 at 1st, 1d3+2 at 2nd, 1d3+3 at 3rd, 1d3+4 at 4th and probably 1d3+5 at 5th.

As for exequiel's proposal...looks OK, in that there's nothing that sticks out. Forager is a Nobody Will Take This feature, but you knew that. Jack of All trades is pretty weak, even as a normal talent.

The Rogue's Edge thing is a bit clunky, in that it introduces brand new skills at expert levels out of nowhere every 5 levels. The increasing bonus is fine, and more edges is fine, but you could just provide more skill points (say, 10+int) and be done with it rather than adding brand new skills.

FWIW, I'm considering giving rogues unlocks for all skills automatically if they have enough rogue levels and enough skill points. I don't think it'll break anything.

I was thinking something along the lines of Dex to damage up to your level as well. I'm also aware that Efficient Forager is one of those talents that anyone would ever take, but I ported it over from Starfinder's Operative that pretty much inspired me when making this homebrew as a means to give ground for talents that could add your rogue's edge bonus on other things besides skill checks. Some people already told me about Jack-of-All-Trades and that it isn't that good, maybe it's just me that sees it as a really cool talent? Though if I had to be honest, I made it an advanced talent because the norm for rogue talents is that they tend to suck, so I made it advanced because I thought it was probably a little better than it really is.

Rogue's edge was designed with the intention of giving rogues room to spend their skill ranks without forcing them into boosting Intelligence. Since it's pretty much the only "mundane" skill monkey in the game and thus without access to spells, more skill ranks can pretty much guarantee that the rogue is always prepapared for whatever is thrown at him.

Giving rogues skill unlocks for all skills automatically wouldn't be something I would be against tbh, it certainly could be introduced as an alternative captsone like those in Chronicle of Legends to test the waters to see if people agree with that or not.


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Instead of giving full skill ranks like the fighter I would recommend doing only half level similar to phantom thief. The reason being that trivializing Int is probably not for the best as it really doesnt have anything going for it outside more skill ranks.

Probably shouldn't encourage more things becoming the equivalent to Str whose only good thing is that it increases damage.


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Temperans wrote:

Instead of giving full skill ranks like the fighter I would recommend doing only half level similar to phantom thief. The reason being that trivializing Int is probably not for the best as it really doesnt have anything going for it outside more skill ranks.

Probably shouldn't encourage more things becoming the equivalent to Str whose only good thing is that it increases damage.

It has like 15 skills that rely on it. Every Knowledge and Spellcraft check to be precise, which are among the most used and/or needed skills in a party.

Besides, 1/2 your level to skill ranks would be really weird because you will get your 1st skill unlocks at 10th level (weird) and you will be effectively worse than any other character that maxed out a skill.

I didn't get the "Instead of giving full skill ranks like the fighter" bit, probably just a typo.


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I was thinking about the changes to Finesse Training and I thought about this...

If we somehow made the rogue less reliant on Dexterity (turning Finesse Training into a talent, or wathever we end up doing if we finally go that way) should rogues gain proficiency with medium armor and shields? (and maybe martial weapons too, but I'm not sure about this).


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exequiel759 wrote:

I was thinking about the changes to Finesse Training and I thought about this...

If we somehow made the rogue less reliant on Dexterity (turning Finesse Training into a talent, or wathever we end up doing if we finally go that way) should rogues gain proficiency with medium armor and shields? (and maybe martial weapons too, but I'm not sure about this).

In you first post, you said that you tried to keep the things that "make a rogue a rogue."

Making the class non-Dex based and using heavier armor seems to go against this.


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What he said. Of course, you could make that an archetype, but in practice (unless you're planning to publish it) it's a matter of what PCs (or NPCs) you make that determines what classes you need to make.


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Andostre wrote:
exequiel759 wrote:

I was thinking about the changes to Finesse Training and I thought about this...

If we somehow made the rogue less reliant on Dexterity (turning Finesse Training into a talent, or wathever we end up doing if we finally go that way) should rogues gain proficiency with medium armor and shields? (and maybe martial weapons too, but I'm not sure about this).

In you first post, you said that you tried to keep the things that "make a rogue a rogue."

Making the class non-Dex based and using heavier armor seems to go against this.

I mean, you are not wrong, but rogues before Unchained were much better with Strength builds. Even in earlier editions Dex-based builds like Unchained Rogue were pretty much imposible to do without tons of feats and multiclassing (a.k.a D&d 3.5) so Strength rogues were pretty much the only rogues back then.

Also forcing rogues into Dexterity builds isn't something I'm too fond of. Your regular thug or bandit aren't commonly depicted as "agile combatants" and they clearly aren't depicted as fighters either. Also a lot of rogue-like classes already have those proficiencies (bards which have proficiency with shields and vigilantes that have martial weapons, medium armor, and shields are a testament to it).

Clearly Strength rogues exists out there, and it would certainly make sense for them to be proficient with medium armor (at least from a design perspective). Agility isn't the main atractive of rogues IMO, its their skills and how they pretty much learned to survive by being opportunistic. They are an "underdog" class so to speak, and that isn't tied to Dexterity even if every new iteration of rogues that came after URogue seems to imply that (something which PF2e didn't do and allowed rogues to pretty much pick up whatever ability score they wanted).

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Removed some posts and quotes using vulgar speech. Please be cautious with language.


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While I agree that dex based rogue is not the only type just like dex based swashbuckler is not the only type. Removing the dex bonuses to give a medium armor doesn't solve the issue.

The reason why that ability was added is because weapon finesse and dex to damage is not the standard for the game. Its why almost every class/archetype that was remotely dex based got a way to get weapon finesse and bonus damage of some kind when using dex to hit.

A half way point would be to offer the choice, similar to vigilante picking stalker or avenger.


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Temperans wrote:

While I agree that dex based rogue is not the only type just like dex based swashbuckler is not the only type. Removing the dex bonuses to give a medium armor doesn't solve the issue.

The reason why that ability was added is because weapon finesse and dex to damage is not the standard for the game. Its why almost every class/archetype that was remotely dex based got a way to get weapon finesse and bonus damage of some kind when using dex to hit.

A half way point would be to offer the choice, similar to vigilante picking stalker or avenger.

I was thinking about something similar to what vigilantes have too.

What should Strength rogues receive though? Medium armor seems fitting, but it barely makes up for Dexterity to damage with melee and thrown weapons.


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Weapon focus maybe? Power attack would be a trap.

Proficiency in a martial or exotic light or one handed weapon might make sense.


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What about nothing? If you worry about balance between Str and Dex based rogues, you could also weaken or completely remove finesse training. Core rogue offered both paths (just encouraging Dex a bit with Weapon Finesse via talent), it's Unchained rogue which tries to push players into the Dex path. Few players manage to ignore a freebie like finesse training, rather they think they'd miss out on something if they don't use it.


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You'd need something that allows them to be roguey in medium armour. Most notably, that's something to deal with the Dex skill penalties and slow movement. Naturally, that goes away when Mithril Breastplate becomes standard, but for the first few levels it'll be a problem. It could be a Talent (or two) so any rogue could take it, but your standard Str rogue would need to get it free or have something else too.

I'd do it as something like fighters' Armour Training 1 at 3rd level, and 1 less Dex penalty for medium armour to any rogue class skill per 2 levels, minimum 1.


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Mudfoot wrote:

You'd need something that allows them to be roguey in medium armour. Most notably, that's something to deal with the Dex skill penalties and slow movement. Naturally, that goes away when Mithril Breastplate becomes standard, but for the first few levels it'll be a problem. It could be a Talent (or two) so any rogue could take it, but your standard Str rogue would need to get it free or have something else too.

I'd do it as something like fighters' Armour Training 1 at 3rd level, and 1 less Dex penalty for medium armour to any rogue class skill per 2 levels, minimum 1.

If mimicking fighter I would do every 4 levels. That way it keeps parity.

Could also make it so that Str rogues are proficient in armor with the nimble modification. Which would be interesting.


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SheepishEidolon wrote:
What about nothing? If you worry about balance between Str and Dex based rogues, you could also weaken or completely remove finesse training. Core rogue offered both paths (just encouraging Dex a bit with Weapon Finesse via talent), it's Unchained rogue which tries to push players into the Dex path. Few players manage to ignore a freebie like finesse training, rather they think they'd miss out on something if they don't use it.

This doesn't sound like a bad idea tbh. Finesse training could become a rogue talent instead, and even if it technically becomes a "tax" for Dexterity based rogues when it used to be free, I think the other upgrades make up for that loss.

SheepishEidolon wrote:

You'd need something that allows them to be roguey in medium armour. Most notably, that's something to deal with the Dex skill penalties and slow movement. Naturally, that goes away when Mithril Breastplate becomes standard, but for the first few levels it'll be a problem. It could be a Talent (or two) so any rogue could take it, but your standard Str rogue would need to get it free or have something else too.

I'd do it as something like fighters' Armour Training 1 at 3rd level, and 1 less Dex penalty for medium armour to any rogue class skill per 2 levels, minimum 1.

That sounds like the vigilante's armor skin talent.

Quote:
Armor Skin (Ex) (Ultimate Intrigue pg. 13): The vigilante’s armor is like a second skin. He doesn’t apply the armor check penalty for light and medium armor on Acrobatics, Escape Artist, or Stealth checks. This penalty applies on other skill checks as normal. At 8th level, he can move at full speed in medium armor.


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After reading through all the feedback I decided to make some changes. Rogue's edge was divided into rogue's edge (the circumstance bonus on skill checks) and rogue specialization (class skills, skill ranks, and skill unlocks). Probably the most notable change is that finesse training was effectively removed and instead turned into a rogue talent. I was hesitant to do it at first, but I think it's much better for classes to not make choices for the players (more so if said players don't have a way to replace those features that they don't like).

To keep following this design philosophy of not forcing rogues into a particular stat array, I overhauled every talent in both the core and unchained rogue to be used with any ability modifier (for the most part). Non-magical talents (like most talents that trigger after doing sneak attack) require the rogue's Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher), while magical talents (such as minor magic or major magic) require the rogue's Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher). Some talents were revised and there's some new ones as well.

Ultimate Rogue — re-unchaining the Rogue #2 : Electric Boogaloo

Hit Die: d8.
Starting Wealth: 4d6 x 10 gp.

Class Skills
The Rogue (Ultimate)'s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points per Level: 8 + Int modifier.

Base Attack Bonus: 3/4
Good Saves: Reflex, Will
Bad Saves: Fortitude

CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature, except that rogues are also proficient with shields (except tower shields).

Rogue Specialization: At 1st level, a rogue has mastered two skills beyond those skill’s normal boundaries, gaining results that others can only dream about. A rogue considers the chosen skills as class skills (if they weren't before) and she gains a number of ranks equal to her rogue level in those skills. If the rogue already has ranks in the chosen skills, she can immediately relocate them into one or more skills of her choice (this does not allow her to exceed the maximum number of skill ranks in a single skill). Starting at 5th level, she gains the skill unlock powers for those skills as appropriate for her number of ranks in those skills.

At 5th and every 5 levels thereafter, she chooses an additional skill and considers it as a class skill (if it wasn't before) and she gains a number of skill ranks equal to her rogue level and the skill unlock powers for that skill as appropriate for her number of ranks in that skill.

Rogue’s Edge (Ex): At 1st level, her diverse training as a rogue grants her a +1 competence bonus to skill checks. This bonus increases by 1 at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter.

Sneak Attack: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Trapfinding: A rogue doubles her rogue’s edge bonus on Perception checks to locate traps and on Disable Device checks. A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Evasion (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Rogue Talents: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature. All talents from the core and unchained rogue classes can be used with the ultimate rogue without modification.

Threat Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue adds her rogue’s edge bonus on Reflex saves to avoid traps and as a dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. In addition, she doubles her rogue’s edge bonus on Perception checks to avoid being surprised by a foe. This ability counts as trap sense or danger sense for the purpose of any feat or class prerequisite, and can be replaced by any archetype class feature that replaces either. The bonuses gained from this ability stack with those gained from trap sense or danger sense.

Debilitating Injury (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Advanced Talents: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature. All talents from the core and unchained rogue classes can be used with the ultimate rogue without modification.

Master Strike (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature, except the DC is 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher).

Rogue Talents: An ultimate rogue has access to the following rogue talents.

Armor Training (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent gains proficiency with medium armor. In addition, she reduces the armor check penalty for light and medium armor by an amount equal to her rogue’s edge bonus (to a minimum of 0). If this reduction in armor check penalty ever reaches 0 or lower, she can move at her normal speed with that piece of medium armor.

Bomber (Su): A rogue who selects this talent can make a number of bombs per day equal to her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher, minimum 1). These bombs act as alchemist’s bombs, except they deal damage equal to the damage dealt by the rogue’s sneak attack (the rogue doesn’t add her Intelligence modifier to this damage).

Certainty (Ex): The rogue chooses one of the skills she selected with rogue specialization. Once per day, the rogue can reroll a skill check she just made with the selected skill and take the better result. She can use this reroll with the selected skill one additional time per day at 10th level and every 5 levels thereafter. A rogue can select this talent multiple times. Each time, the rogue must choose a different skill with rogue specialization.

Cloying Shades (Su): When a rogue with this talent uses dimension door as a spell or spell-like ability, including the abundant step or shadow jump class feature, then all creatures adjacent to the rogue at the start and end of her teleportation are entangled by grasping shadows for 1 round (although the creatures are not anchored in place). A successful Reflex saving throw negates this effect. The DC of this saving throw is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s highest mental ability score modifier (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma). The rogue must have dimension door as a spell or spell-like ability (including the abundant step or shadow jump class feature) before choosing this talent.

Convincing Lie (Ex): When a rogue with this talent lies, she creates fabrications so convincing that others treat them as truth. When a rogue with this talent successfully uses the Bluff skill to convince someone that what she is saying is true (in which the rogue can choose to add her Intelligence or Wisdom modifier in place of her Charisma modifier for this purpose), if that individual is questioned later about the statement or story, that person uses the rogue’s Bluff modifier at the moment she is making the Bluff check to convince the questioner, rather than his own. If his Bluff modifier is better than the rogue’s, the individual can use his own modifier and gain a bonus equal to the rogue’s edge bonus of the rogue on any check to convince others of the lie. This effect lasts for a number of days equal to 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher).

Demon Lantern (Sp): Once per day when she casts dancing lights, the rogue can conjure a single demon’s lantern instead of the usual four lights. A demon lantern acts in all ways as a hypnotic pattern spell cast by a wizard, except it also casts light as a torch and it fascinates only a single target whose Hit Dice do not exceed the rogue’s class level. The save DC of this effect is equal to 11 + the rogue’s Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher). The rogue must have a mental ability score of at least 11 to select this talent. A rogue must have selected the minor magic rogue talent and selected dancing lights as her spell of choice or otherwise be able to cast dancing lights before choosing this talent.

Demand Attention (Ex): The first time each round that you deal sneak attack damage to an opponent, you can forgo sneak attack damage to distract the creature. The target must succeed at a Will save (DC = 10 + the number of sneak attack dice sacrificed + your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier; whichever is higher) or become distracted until the start of your next turn. Distracted opponents are entirely focused on you, and pay little attention to their surroundings; they are not considered to be observing other characters within 30 feet, allowing them to attempt Stealth checks to hide. A distracted opponent automatically fails Perception checks against creatures more than 30 feet away.

Esoteric Scholar (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent doubles her rogue’s edge bonus on Knowledge skill checks when making skill checks to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures. A rogue may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained, even with other actions such as recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or know obscure or ancient historical events.

Ever Vigilant (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat. In addition, a rogue adds the circumstance bonus from rogue’s edge to her initiative checks.

Expert Cypher (Ex): A rogue with this talent doubles her rogue’s edge bonus to Linguistics checks made to decipher writing. She can attempt a Linguistics check to decipher a single page of text as a full-round action instead of taking 1 minute as normal. When the rogue attempts a Use Magic Device check to cast a spell from a scroll, she is treated as though she had the minimum score in the appropriate ability score to cast that spell. Finally, the rogue can use her Intelligence or Wisdom modifier when making Use Magic Device checks.

False Priest (Sp): A rogue gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the cleric spell list. This otherwise functions and is considered as having the minor magic rogue talent for the purpose of meeting other rogue talent prerequisites. If the rogue later selects the major magic rogue talent, she instead gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the cleric spell list. The rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 10 to select this talent.

Feinting Trick: A rogue who selects this talent gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If the target is currently afflicted with a penalty due to her debilitating injury class feature and if she is currently flanking that target, she can feint that target as a swift action. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites for Greater Feint (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Finesse Training (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, whenever a rogue makes a successful melee attack with a light melee weapon or a melee weapon that may allow her to add her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on attack rolls (such as rapiers or daggers) or a successful ranged attack with a thrown weapon (such as daggers or starknifes), she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier.

Firearm Training (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains the Amateur Gunslinger and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feats. She must fulfill the prerequisites as normal.

Gloom Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast darkness once per day as a spell-like ability for every 4 rogue levels she possesses. The darkness created by this ability does not impair the rogue’s vision. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue’s level. The save DC for this spell is 12 + the rogue’s highest mental ability score modifier (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma). A rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 12 and the minor magic rogue talent before choosing this talent.

Greater Gloom Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast deeper darkness once per day as a spell-like ability for every 6 rogue levels she possesses. The darkness created by this ability does not impair the rogue’s vision. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue’s level. The save DC for this spell is 13 + the rogue’s highest mental ability score modifier. A rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 13 and the gloom magic and minor magic rogue talents before choosing this talent.

Grig Jig (Su): Once per day, the rogue can weave a bit of old Varisian magic into her footwork, dancing with an infectious passion that compels another nearby to join in. The rogue can target one humanoid within 30 feet and attempt a Perform (dance) check (in which the rogue can choose to add her Intelligence or Wisdom modifier in place of her Charisma modifier for this purpose) as a full-round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Her target must succeed at a Will save (DC equal to the rogue’s Perform [dance] check) or it begins to dance uncontrollably. So long as the rogue continues to spend a full-round action dancing each round, the affected target does so as well. If the target is attacked or otherwise in immediate danger while dancing, the effect ends. Each round on its turn, the target can attempt an Acrobatics or Perform (dance) check or a Will save (target’s choice) against the rogue’s initial Perform (dance) check to end the effect. A target who resists the jig can not be affected by the same rogue’s jig for 24 hours. The grig jig is a mind-affecting effect. The rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 12 to select this talent. A rogue can use this ability once per day, plus one additional time per day for every 5 rogue levels she possesses.

Improved Combat Swipe: A rogue with this talent gains Quick Steal as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If she succeeds in taking an item from a foe, that creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against her attacks as long the rogue keeps the stolen item in her free hand or until the beginning of her next turn. If the rogue succeeds in taking an item from that same foe in subsequent turns, she can immediately stow the previously stolen item as part of the same action used to acquire the new one. A rogue must have the combat swipe rogue talent and be at least 6th level to select talent.

Improved Underhanded Trick: A rogue with this talent gains Quick Dirty Trick as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 8th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Superior Dirty Trick (although she must take the feat to gain its benefits). A rogue must have the underhanded trick talent and be at least 6th level to select this talent.

Investigator Talent (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a talent from the investigator talent list, using her rogue level as her investigator level for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. The rogue cannot choose an investigator talent with the same name as a rogue talent. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require an inspiration pool, unless she has an inspiration pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.

Jack of All Trades (Ex): A rogue knows how to handle any situation. She can use all skills untrained, and doubles her rogue’s edge bonus when using a skill in which she has no ranks.

Ki Pool (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a small ki pool. This ki pool is similar to a ninja’s ki pool, but the rogue’s ki pool does not grant any extra attacks. The rogue gains a number of ki points equal to her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher, minimum 1). These ki points replenish at the start of each day. If she already has a ki pool, or gains a ki pool later, she gains half her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher or the second highest, minimum 1) as bonus ki points to her ki pool. She can spend a ki point to gain a +10-foot bonus to movement until the end of her turn.

Leap Attack: A rogue who selects this talent gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. As part of Spring Attack, the rogue can instead make an Acrobatics check against the target’s CMD to jump over her target and land at least 5 feet away from it. If successful, she can make a single melee attack at the moment she passes above it without provoking any attacks of opportunity from her target, which causes the target to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against that attack. The rogue gets a running start for the purposes of this talent. A rogue must be at least 4th level to select this talent.

Line Up: A rogue who selects this talent gains Gang Up as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If at least one of her allies is threatening an opponent, the rogue is considered to be flanking that opponent regardless of her actual range if both the rogue and her ally can draw a line between the center of her space and the center of her ally's space which must pass through opposite sides or opposite corners of the opponent's space.

Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list once per day as a spell-like ability for every 2 rogue levels she possesses. The rogue’s caster level for this ability is equal to her rogue level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the rogue’s highest mental ability score modifier (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma). A rogue must have the minor magic rogue talent and an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 11 to select this talent.

Minor Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast at will as a spell-like ability. The rogue’s caster level for this ability is equal to her rogue level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue’s highest mental ability score modifier (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma). A rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 10 to select this talent.

Obscuring Blow (Ex): Once per day, the rogue can forgo her sneak attack damage to attempt to cloud an opponent’s vision. She must declare the use of obscuring blow before she makes the attack. If the attack hits, it does normal damage but, instead of dealing sneak attack damage (and any effect that triggers when the rogue deals sneak attack damage), the target treats all other creatures as if they had concealment, suffering a 20% miss chance on all attack rolls for a number of rounds equal to half the rogue’s level. A successful Fortitude saving throw reduces this effect to 1 round. The DC of this saving throw is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher).

Occult Mysticism (Ex): The rogue has unlocked the secrets of the occult world. The rogue gains Psychic Sensitivity as a bonus feat. If she already has Psychic Sensitivity or the ability to cast psychic spells, she instead gains another feat that lists Psychic Sensitivity as a prerequisite. A rogue can use occult skill unlocks even if she is untrained with that skill.

Psychic Adept (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the psychic spell list. This spell can be cast at will as a spell-like ability. The rogue’s caster level for this ability is equal to her rogue level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue’s highest mental ability score modifier (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma). If the rogue does not have the Psychic Sensitivity feat or the ability to cast psychic spells, she also receives Psychic Sensitivity as a bonus feat. This otherwise functions and is considered as having the minor magic rogue talent and the Psychic Adept feat for the purpose of meeting other rogue talent or feat prerequisites. If the rogue later selects the major magic rogue talent, she instead gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the psychic spell list. A rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 10 to select this talent.

Rogue Tricks: The rogue gains one of the following feats as a bonus feat: Armor Trick, Equipment Trick, Magic Trick, or Weapon Trick. She uses her rogue level in place of her base attack bonus to determine if she meets the prerequisites of a trick. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time, the rogue gains a new feat from the above list.

Quick Movement (Ex): As long as the rogue is unencumbered and wearing light armor or no armor, her base speed increases by 10 feet. A rogue can select this talent multiple times, but at 10th and 18th level respectively. Each time, the rogue’s base speed increases by 10 feet (to a maximum base speed increase of 30 feet). This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the rogue’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Sever Alignment (Su): When making a sneak attack against an opponent with an alignment subtype, a rogue with this talent can forgo her sneak attack damage to scramble the creature’s metaphysical nature. If the attack succeeds, the rogue deals weapon damage as normal, and the target must succeed at a Fortitude save or lose all damage reduction overcome by aligned weapons (such as DR 10/good), lose all regeneration overcome by aligned sources (such as regeneration 10 [good]), and lose the ability to cast spells and use spell-like abilities with alignment descriptors for 1 round for every 2d6 points of sneak attack damage the rogue would have dealt (minimum 1 round). The DC of this saving throw is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher). The rogue must have the aligned sneak attack talent to select this talent.

Signature Skill (Ex): A rogue with this talent immediately selects an additional skill with her rogue specialization ability. A rogue can select this talent multiple times.

Silencing Strike (Su): Using magic stolen from the Hellknights, Council agents can render foes silent. When a creature is damaged by the rogue’s sneak attack, the rogue magically renders the creature mute for 1 round unless it succeeds at a Will save. The DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher). Silencing strike can be used a number of times per day equal to half the rogue’s level.

Social Talent (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a talent from the vigilante social talent list, using her rogue level as her vigilante level for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. For the purposes of vigilante social talents, the rogue does not have a vigilante identity and is always considered to be in her social identity. The rogue cannot choose a vigilante social talent with the same name as a rogue talent. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.

Strong Impression: A rogue who selects this talent gains Intimidating Prowess as a bonus feat. This talent counts as the Dazzling Display feat and she uses her rogue level in place of her base attack bonus for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of any feat that lists Dazzling Display as a prerequisite. A rogue must meet other prerequisites as normal.

Superior Sniper: A rogue who selects this talent gains Expert Sniper as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Master Sniper (although she must take the feat to gain its benefits).

Survivalist (Ex): A rogue with this talent adds Heal and Survival to her list of class skills. In addition, a rogue who selects this talent can move at her full overland speed when using Survival while hunting and foraging, and a successful check provides food and water for an additional number of creatures equal to her rogue’s edge bonus, and provide long-term care, treat disease, or treat deadly wounds when using Heal for an additional number of creatures equal to her rogue’s edge bonus. This benefit doesn’t stack with effects that reduce the amount of time needed to treat deadly wounds such as the Healer’s Hands feat.

Two-Weapon Master: A rogue who selects this talent gains Two-Weapon Feint as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If she is using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee or ranged attacks, a rogue can forgo her first primary-hand attack to make a Bluff check to feint. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites for Improved Two-Weapon Feint (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits). The rogue must have the two-weapon trick talent before choosing this talent.

Two-Weapon Trick: A rogue who selects this talent gains Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and at 10th level if she possess Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, she also meets all the prerequisites for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (although she must take each feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Unbalancing Trick (Ex): The rogue gains Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If she succeeds in tripping her target, that creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against her attacks as long as it remains prone. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Greater Trip (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Underhanded (Ex): A rogue with this talent doubles her circumstance bonus from rogue’s edge bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Dexterity or Strength modifier (whichever is higher, minimum 0).

Underhanded Disarm: A rogue who selects this talent gains Dirty Disarm as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She can attempt a single combat maneuver check or Sleight of Hand check for both maneuvers. A rogue must have the weapon snatcher and underhanded trick rogue talents and be at least 6th level to select this talent.

Unseeing Stalker: A rogue who selects this talent gains Blind-Fight as a bonus feat. She is considered as having darkvision and low-light vision for the purposes of meeting Moonlight Stalker prerequisites and with other feats that have Moonlight Stalker as a prerequisite.

Weapon Snatcher (Ex): The rogue gains Improved Disarm as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent. She receives any bonuses the rogue may have on combat maneuver checks made to disarm a foe on the Sleight of Hand check for this purpose. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Greater Disarm (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Weapon Training (Ex): The rogue must select one type of weapon (such as longsword or crossbow) when she gains this talent. She gains proficiency with that type of weapon (if she wasn't before) and the Weapon Focus feat as a bonus feat for her selected weapon type.

Wild Magic (Sp): A rogue gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the druid spell list. This otherwise functions and is considered as having the minor magic rogue talent for the purpose of meeting other rogue talent prerequisites. If the rogue later selects the major magic rogue talent, she instead gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the druid spell list. The rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 10 to select this talent.

Other rogue talents that should replace their skill bonuses with double your rogue’s edge bonus: Camouflage, Canny Observer, Expert Leaper, False Friend, Getaway Artist, Innocuous Servant, Just a Face in the Crowd, Maneuvering Dodge, Nimble Climber, Riding Stunt, Scavenger, Sczarni Smuggler, Strong Stroke, and Wall Scramble.

Other rogue talents that should replace their bonuses by instead adding your rogue’s edge bonus: Acrobatic Assist, Iron Guts, and Rope Master.

Advanced Talents: An ultimate rogue has access to the following advanced talents.

Cutting Edge (Ex): A rogue with this ability immediately selects two additional skills with her rogue specialization ability. She can select this advanced talent multiple times.

Getaway Master (Ex): A rogue with this talent can always choose to take 10 on all drive checks, even if she’s in immediate danger or distracted. In addition, once per day, a rogue can choose to take 20 on all drive checks even if she’s in immediate danger or distracted. The rogue must have the getaway artist rogue talent before choosing this talent.

Knock-Out Blow (Ex): Once per day, a rogue who selects this talent can forgo her sneak attack damage to attempt to knock out an opponent. She must declare the use of knock-out blow before she makes the attack. If the attack hits, it does normal damage, but instead of dealing sneak attack damage (and instead of any effect that triggers when the rogue deals sneak attack damage), the target falls unconscious for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save reduces this effect to staggered for 1 round. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher).

Master of Disguise (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can don a disguise as a standard action. While wearing that disguise, she can always choose to take 20 on all Disguise checks. A rogue must have the quick disguise talent to select this talent.

Rumormonger (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent can attempt to spread a rumor though a small town or larger settlement by making a Bluff check (in which the rogue can choose to add her Intelligence or Wisdom modifier in place of her Charisma modifier for this purpose). She can do so a number of times per week equal to her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher, minimum 0). The DC is based on the size of the settlement, and it takes a week for the rumor to propagate through the settlement. If the check succeeds, the rumor is practically accepted as fact within the community; succeeding by 5 or more over the DC decreases the time it takes the rumor to propagate by 1d4 days. A failed check means the rumor failed to gain traction, while failing by 5 or more causes the opposite of the rumor or some other competing theory involving the rumor’s subject to take hold.

Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. The rogue selects a number of skills equal to her highest mental ability score modifier. When making a skill check with one of those skills (or any of the skills selected through the rogue specialization class feature), she can take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue can gain this talent multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.

Alternate Capstones: An ultimate rogue has access to the following alternate capstones.

Masterful Talent (Ex): At 20th level, the rogue has been a thief, an actor, a merchant, a scout, a confessor, a friend, an assassin, and a dozen more things besides. The rogue increases her competence bonus on skills checks from rogue’s edge by 4.


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Maybe there was a typo, you said "circumstance bonus" from rogue's edge. But then that and Masterful Talent both say competence.

Rogue's Edge is what already gives skill unlocks (1 at 5th and every 5 levels there after). So it makes no sense to change that into a competence/circumstance bonus to skills while making having the new thing provide that benefit. It would make more sense if it was Rogue Specialization that gave the skill bonus.

Again I recommend against having it be you rogue level in free ranks and instead use only half your rogue level. Right now there is literally no reason why a rogue would ever use Int, and is overall making the point of only having so many skill ranks mute. The fact you have made it so you can use any ability score instead of just select ones makes it worse; Because it goes from "I need some of this" to "I am just going to min max since it doesn't matter". On that note you really don't need to have both "huge bonus to all skills" and "huge number of skill ranks" at the same time, that is just pure overkill.

*******************
Before you mention Bard, versatile performance does not count as skill ranks in the skill. You cannot use versatile performance for the purpose of skill pre-reqs.

If you want a counter to jack-of-all trades. Then just copy jack-of-all trades. Not this weird bonus to all skills.


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Temperans wrote:
Maybe there was a typo, you said "circumstance bonus" from rogue's edge. But then that and Masterful Talent both say competence.

Yeah, it was a typo.

Temperans wrote:
Rogue's Edge is what already gives skill unlocks (1 at 5th and every 5 levels there after). So it makes no sense to change that into a competence/circumstance bonus to skills while making having the new thing provide that benefit. It would make more sense if it was Rogue Specialization that gave the skill bonus.

This is because I got the idea from Starfinder's Operative, which is pretty much the rogue from that edition.

Temperans wrote:
Again I recommend against having it be you rogue level in free ranks and instead use only half your rogue level. Right now there is literally no reason why a rogue would ever use Int, and is overall making the point of only having so many skill ranks mute. The fact you have made it so you can use any ability score instead of just select ones makes it worse; Because it goes from "I need some of this" to "I am just going to min max since it doesn't matter". On that note you really don't need to have both "huge bonus to all skills" and "huge number of skill ranks" at the same time, that is just pure overkill.

1/2 your rogue level to skill ranks seems weird to me because it complicates things around for no reason. Let's assume that I take Perception at 5th level (2 free skill ranks). That would mean that if I don't spend ranks into Perception I would get the 5th skill unlock powers at 10th level, and if I spend skill ranks into it I have to stop spending ranks into other skills and affectively have tons of leftover skills all over the place. Your level to skill ranks is efficient and once you have it you can pretty much forget to ever increase your skill ranks with it (and it makes retraining much more easier as well).

I also don't think rogues should be forced into Intelligence. It doesn't make it so I need some of this" to "I am just going to min max since it doesn't matter" because rogues already do that to begin with. Unless you are higher level you cannot go around with a headband of mental prowess, and even if you can use whatever mental stat you want a rogue would still like to have a headband of mental prowess at some point because it doesn't remove the fact that skills still need other ability scores to make their skill modifiers higher.

Literally every class in the game already "min-maxes" whatever ability score is needed to increase their DCs, why rogues need to have 4 different important ability scores and have their DCs all over the place?

Temperans wrote:

Before you mention Bard, versatile performance does not count as skill ranks in the skill. You cannot use versatile performance for the purpose of skill pre-reqs.

If you want a counter to jack-of-all trades. Then just copy jack-of-all trades. Not this weird bonus to all skills.

There aren't many feats (at least good ones) that require skill ranks in their prerequisites. The fact that bards effectively have twice as many trained skills when compared to rogues still persists. I can also mention investigators as well, that due to their focus on Intelligence can pretty much end with at least +16 skill ranks per level, which is much higher than what core or unchained rogues have and still rely on their extracts to make things that rogues don't like buffing themselves, flying, etc.


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As Mudfoot already suggested, what do you think about giving rogues skill unlocks for all skills automatically if they have enough rogue levels and enough skill points?


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I think it's a brilliant idea :)


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Mudfoot wrote:
I think it's a brilliant idea :)

I'm thinking about it as replacement for rogue specialization (or at least the skills received at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter with that ability).

Although I don't know if I want to remove that ability in its enterity, though if I decide to keep it in the class it probably should do something else at higher levels. Probably take 10 or something along those lines.


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exequiel759 wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Maybe there was a typo, you said "circumstance bonus" from rogue's edge. But then that and Masterful Talent both say competence.

Yeah, it was a typo.

Temperans wrote:
Rogue's Edge is what already gives skill unlocks (1 at 5th and every 5 levels there after). So it makes no sense to change that into a competence/circumstance bonus to skills while making having the new thing provide that benefit. It would make more sense if it was Rogue Specialization that gave the skill bonus.

This is because I got the idea from Starfinder's Operative, which is pretty much the rogue from that edition.

Temperans wrote:
Again I recommend against having it be you rogue level in free ranks and instead use only half your rogue level. Right now there is literally no reason why a rogue would ever use Int, and is overall making the point of only having so many skill ranks mute. The fact you have made it so you can use any ability score instead of just select ones makes it worse; Because it goes from "I need some of this" to "I am just going to min max since it doesn't matter". On that note you really don't need to have both "huge bonus to all skills" and "huge number of skill ranks" at the same time, that is just pure overkill.

1/2 your rogue level to skill ranks seems weird to me because it complicates things around for no reason. Let's assume that I take Perception at 5th level (2 free skill ranks). That would mean that if I don't spend ranks into Perception I would get the 5th skill unlock powers at 10th level, and if I spend skill ranks into it I have to stop spending ranks into other skills and affectively have tons of leftover skills all over the place. Your level to skill ranks is efficient and once you have it you can pretty much forget to ever increase your skill ranks with it (and it makes retraining much more easier as well).

I also don't think rogues should be forced into Intelligence. It...

So what if you don't get 10 rank skill unlock at level 10 with 0 investment? The point is that there should be meaning behind things not just getting everything for free. Spending 5 ranks in perception and getting 5 free ranks is still 5 free ranks. Not to mention no one else but rogues gets skill unlocks unless they actively spend feats for them.

Also I am not saying that Int should be mandatory. I am saying that you are making Int a useless stat for Rogues, which should not be the case. By making it so rogues have 120 free ranks and a ton of free skill bonus on top of them having 8+int skill ranks, and then you remove Int being required for any talent. So tell me why would anyone waste ability points into Intelligence when the class literally has no reason to ever bother using it? Think about it, a fighter gets more skill ranks from Int and so they have some incentive to put points into it; Similarly, a wizard gets carrying capacity from Str and so they have some incentive to put points into it. But you are making it so Rogues can literally dump Int and still be better than everyone else who maxed it out.

You are not "making it so Rogues are not forced to use Intelligence" you are making it so Intelligence is a mechanically useless stat for anything outside feat pre-reqs. You literally are comparing Investigator putting a bunch of points into Int getting 16 skills as a reason why a Rogue with 0 points into Int should have 16 skills. Which is straight up backwards, best at skills should never mean that Int is a useless stat. What next make it so Charisma and Wisdom are useless because we can't have Rogues be forced to use those?


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Temperans wrote:
exequiel759 wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Maybe there was a typo, you said "circumstance bonus" from rogue's edge. But then that and Masterful Talent both say competence.

Yeah, it was a typo.

Temperans wrote:
Rogue's Edge is what already gives skill unlocks (1 at 5th and every 5 levels there after). So it makes no sense to change that into a competence/circumstance bonus to skills while making having the new thing provide that benefit. It would make more sense if it was Rogue Specialization that gave the skill bonus.

This is because I got the idea from Starfinder's Operative, which is pretty much the rogue from that edition.

Temperans wrote:
Again I recommend against having it be you rogue level in free ranks and instead use only half your rogue level. Right now there is literally no reason why a rogue would ever use Int, and is overall making the point of only having so many skill ranks mute. The fact you have made it so you can use any ability score instead of just select ones makes it worse; Because it goes from "I need some of this" to "I am just going to min max since it doesn't matter". On that note you really don't need to have both "huge bonus to all skills" and "huge number of skill ranks" at the same time, that is just pure overkill.

1/2 your rogue level to skill ranks seems weird to me because it complicates things around for no reason. Let's assume that I take Perception at 5th level (2 free skill ranks). That would mean that if I don't spend ranks into Perception I would get the 5th skill unlock powers at 10th level, and if I spend skill ranks into it I have to stop spending ranks into other skills and affectively have tons of leftover skills all over the place. Your level to skill ranks is efficient and once you have it you can pretty much forget to ever increase your skill ranks with it (and it makes retraining much more easier as well).

I also don't think rogues should

...

I don't think this makes Intelligence an useless stat for rogues. A 20th level rogue would get a minimum of 14 skills through her class levels. There are a total of 35 skills in the game (with some of them having a lot of sub-categories) so a rogue that dumps Intelligence would still have more than plenty skills but not near enough to cover the whole skill list.

Intelligence-based rogues would clearly have a greater grasp on the skill list but also higher bonuses with their skills (because Intelligence is the ability score with most skills atributed to it and because they will have more skill ranks to spend into side skills if they don't like maxing-out, likely covering the whole skill list without having to sacrifice skill ranks into their main skills that are already covered through rogue specialization).

With that said, I'm not even sold 100% into rogue specialization increments at 5th level and every 5 level thereafter because I somewhat agree that it probably is a little convoluted and maybe rogues should probably get their all their skill unlocks by default.


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Most people don't need all 35 skills to have ranks. Even having more than 8 is questionable as you have teammates that are supposed to cover other skills as well. So you are eliminating choice into how a player might distribute their skill ranks because "they can still pick other stuff".

Thing is, that makes the class boring, remember part of the fun is making the character you want. If the class effectively tells that it doesn't matter what skill or ability point you want because you will get everything anyway, what is the point of making a character?


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Temperans wrote:

Most people don't need all 35 skills to have ranks. Even having more than 8 is questionable as you have teammates that are supposed to cover other skills as well. So you are eliminating choice into how a player might distribute their skill ranks because "they can still pick other stuff".

Thing is, that makes the class boring, remember part of the fun is making the character you want. If the class effectively tells that it doesn't matter what skill or ability point you want because you will get everything anyway, what is the point of making a character?

Let me doubt about that. The average class receives around 5 skill ranks per level if they aren't Intelligence-based (4 from class + 1 from Intelligence) and around 7 skill rank per level if they Intelligence-based (2 from class + 5 from Intelligence or 4 from class + 3 from Intelligence) during the early levels.

If we look at this doc with Pathbuilder data we can see that Perception, Acrobatics, Stealth, Intimidate, and Sense Motive are the top 5 most taken skills by the users of the app, but I will only take Percetion, Stealth, and Sense Motive to prove my point.

If everyone takes at least those three, it means that an average party of 4 members covers around 9 skills. Obviously if we include a rogue or whatever skill monkey here this number increases (more so if the party has at least one Intelligence-based class), but even as such this isn't enough to cover skills like Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Knowledges that allow to identify creatures, Spellcraft, Survival or Use Magic Device which are skills that at least one member of the party should have.

Even if somehow the whole party covers these skills (which never happened to me in 7 years of playing the game) it doesn't hurt to have the rogue (you know, the skill monkey guy) to have those skills as well as backup if someone else fails the check.

Even if somehow we made a party of 4 rogues that got every skill in the game maxed-out for free they would still play vastly different because it's unlikely that they invested into the same ability scores so one rogue is likely better at some skills than the other and rogues themselves are versatile enough to allow multiple playstyles, such as two-weapon builds, two-handed builds, thrown builds, etc.

This changes don't make the class boring to me, because having a character that can roll lots of skills and function as a backup for your teammates isn't something that takes away from anyone. Literally every martial character is likely taking Power Attack or Combat Expertise at 1st level or whatever feats they need for their chosen playstyle, most evocation casters take burning hands at 1st level and eventually fireball, and as such someone wanting to play a skill monkey expects to have skills (more so if they chose a skill monkey class such as rogue that doesn't have spells to solve every problem).


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Following with Mudfoot's suggestion, I came up with the following as a "replacement" of rogue specialization if I end up going into that direction.

CLASS FEATURES

Rogue Specialization: At 1st level, a rogue has mastered two skills beyond those skill’s normal boundaries, gaining results that others can only dream about. A rogue considers the chosen skills as class skills (if they weren't before) and she gains a number of skill ranks equal to her rogue level in each of those skills. If the rogue already has skill ranks in the chosen skills, she can immediately relocate them into one or more skills of her choice (this does not allow her to exceed the maximum number of skill ranks in a single skill).

At 7th level, she becomes so confident with those skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When attempting a skill check with those skills, she can choose to take 10 even if stress or distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.

Skill Unlock Mastery (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a rogue gains the skill unlock powers of skills as appropriate for her rogue level and number of skill ranks in those skills. She receives the skill unlock powers of skills with at least 5 ranks at 5th level, the skill unlock powers of skills with at least 10 ranks at 10th level, the skill unlock powers of skills with at least 15 ranks at 15th level, and the skill unlock powers of skills with 20 ranks at 20th level.

ROGUE TALENTS

Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. The rogue selects a number of skills equal to her highest mental ability score modifier. When making a skill check with one of those skills, she can choose to take 10 even if she’s in immediate danger or distracted (like she already does with skills selected through the rogue specialization ability). In addition, once per day, the rogue can choose to take 20 with any of the skills selected through the rogue specialization ability even if she’s in immediate danger or distracted. A rogue can gain this talent multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.

What do you guys think about this?


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After going through all the feedback I finally decided to remove some of the changes made to the amount of skill ranks that rogues receive. I believe this would be the last update before I move into revising some archetypes (phantom thief specifically), so I will list the main differences between this revision and unchained rogue below for those who don't want to read this whole thread from the beggining.
—Ultimate rogues have a good Will save.
—Ultimate rogues have proficiency with shields (except tower shields) like bards do.
—Finesse training was removed and instead became a rogue talent.
—Rogue's edge and skill specialization are new class features that closely resemble operative's edge and specialization from Starfinder's operative.
—A lot of class features were tweaked to make rogue's edge a core feature of the class (similar to many AWT options that use the fighter's WT bonus).
—Ultimate rogues receive skill unlocks as appropiate for their rogue level and amount of skill ranks in those skills.
—Most talents were tweaked to not force rogues into always choosing the same ability scores (similar to the Cloying Shades, Unlock Ki, and Steal Story rogue talents).
—Multitalented and Greater Multitalented talents were effectively removed. Now the vast majority of talents that could only be used once per day receive an additional use per day at 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter (at 14th level and every 4 levels thereafter for advanced talents).

I'm eager to hear your opinions!

Ultimate Rogue — re-unchaining the Rogue #3 : The Return?

Hit Die: d8.
Starting Wealth: 4d6 x 10 gp.

Class Skills
The Rogue (Ultimate)'s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points per Level: 8 + Int modifier.

Base Attack Bonus: 3/4
Good Saves: Reflex, Will
Bad Saves: Fortitude

CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature, except that rogues are also proficient with shields (except tower shields).

Rogue’s Edge (Ex): At 1st level, her diverse training as a rogue grants her a +1 competence bonus to skill checks. This bonus increases by 1 at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter.

Skill Specialization: At 1st level, a rogue has mastered two skills beyond those skill’s normal boundaries, gaining results that others can only dream about. A rogue considers the chosen skills as class skills (if they weren't before) and she gains a number of skill ranks equal to her rogue level in each of those skills (this does not allow her to exceed the maximum number of skill ranks in a single skill). If the rogue already has skill ranks in the chosen skills, she can immediately relocate them into one or more skills of her choice.

At 7th level, she becomes so confident with those skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When attempting a skill check with those skills, she can choose to take 10 even if stress or distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.

Sneak Attack: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Trapfinding: A rogue doubles her rogue’s edge bonus on Perception checks to locate traps and on Disable Device checks. A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

Evasion (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Rogue Talents: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature. All talents from the core and unchained rogue classes can be used with the ultimate rogue without modification.

Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue adds her rogue’s edge bonus on Reflex saves to avoid traps and as a dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. In addition, whenever the rogue comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.

Debilitating Injury (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Skill Unlock Mastery (Ex): At 5th level, a rogue gains the skill unlock powers of skills as appropriate for her rogue level and number of skill ranks in those skills. She receives the skill unlock powers of skills in which she spent at least 5 skill ranks at 5th level, of skills in which she spent at least 10 skill ranks at 10th level, of skills in which she spent at least 15 skill ranks at 15th level, and of skills in which she spent 20 skill ranks at 20th level.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature.

Advanced Talents: Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature. All talents from the core and unchained rogue classes can be used with the ultimate rogue without modification.

Master Strike (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue class feature, except the DC is 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher).

Rogue Talents: An ultimate rogue has access to the following rogue talents.

Armor Training (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent gains proficiency with medium armor. In addition, she reduces the armor check penalty for light and medium armor by an amount equal to her rogue’s edge bonus (to a minimum of 0). If this reduction in armor check penalty ever reaches 0 or lower, she can move at her normal speed with that piece of armor.

Bomber (Su): Functions as per the core rogue talent, except she can make a number of bombs per day equal to her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier.

Certainty (Ex): Once per day, the rogue can reroll a skill check she just made with a skill selected with skill specialization and take the better result. She can use this reroll one additional time per day at 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter.

Cloying Shades (Su): Functions as per the core rogue talent, except the DC is 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher).

Demand Attention (Ex): Functions as per the core rogue talent, except the DC is 10 + the n° of sneak attack dice + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher).

Demon Lantern (Sp): Functions as per the core rogue talent, except the DC is 12 + the rogue’s Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher) and must have have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 11 before choosing this talent.

Esoteric Scholar (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent doubles her rogue’s edge bonus on Knowledge checks to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures. A rogue can attempt any Knowledge check, even if she is not trained in that Knowledge skill.

Ever Vigilant (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat. In addition, a rogue adds the competence bonus from rogue’s edge to her initiative checks.

Expert Cypher (Ex): A rogue with this talent doubles her rogue’s edge bonus to Linguistics checks made to decipher writing. She can attempt a Linguistics check to decipher a single page of text as a full-round action instead of taking 1 minute as normal. When the rogue attempts a Use Magic Device check to cast a spell from a scroll, she is treated as though she had the minimum score in the appropriate ability score to cast that spell. Finally, the rogue can use her Intelligence or Wisdom modifier when making Use Magic Device checks.

False Priest (Sp): A rogue gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the cleric spell list. This otherwise functions and is considered as having the minor magic rogue talent for the purpose of meeting other rogue talent prerequisites. If the rogue later selects the major magic rogue talent, she instead gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the cleric spell list. The rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 10 to select this talent.

Feinting Trick: A rogue who selects this talent gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If the target is currently afflicted with a penalty due to her debilitating injury ability and if she is currently flanking that target, she can feint that target as a swift action. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites for Greater Feint (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Finesse Training (Ex): A rogue who selects this talent gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, whenever a rogue makes a successful melee attack with a light melee weapon or a melee weapon that may allow her to add her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on attack rolls (such as rapiers or daggers) or a successful ranged attack with a thrown weapon (such as daggers or starknifes), she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier.

Firearm Training (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) and Gunsmithing feats. She must fulfill the prerequisites of these feats as normal.

Gloom Magic (Sp): Functions as per the core rogue talent, except she must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 12 before choosing this talent.

Greater Gloom Magic (Sp): Functions as per the core rogue talent, except she must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 13 before choosing this talent.

Improved Combat Swipe: A rogue with this talent gains Quick Steal as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If she succeeds in taking an item from a foe, that creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against her attacks as long the rogue keeps the stolen item in her free hand or until the beginning of her next turn. If the rogue succeeds in taking an item from that same foe in subsequent turns, she can immediately stow the previously stolen item as part of the same action used to acquire the new one. A rogue must have the combat swipe rogue talent and be at least 6th level to select talent.

Improved Underhanded Trick: A rogue with this talent gains Quick Dirty Trick as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 8th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Superior Dirty Trick (although she must take the feat to gain its benefits). A rogue must have the underhanded trick talent and be at least 6th level to select this talent.

Investigator Talent (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a talent from the investigator talent list, using her rogue level as her investigator level for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. The rogue cannot choose an investigator talent with the same name as a rogue talent. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require an inspiration pool, unless she has an inspiration pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.

Jack of All Trades (Ex): A rogue knows how to handle any situation. She can use all skills untrained, and doubles her rogue’s edge bonus when using a skill in which she has no ranks.

Ki Pool (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a small ki pool. This ki pool is similar to a ninja’s ki pool, but the rogue’s ki pool does not grant any extra attacks. The rogue gains a number of ki points equal to her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher, minimum 1). These ki points replenish at the start of each day. If she already has a ki pool, or gains a ki pool later, she gains half her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher or the second highest if the highest modifier is already used to determine her number of ki points, minimum 1) as bonus ki points to her ki pool. She can spend a ki point to gain a +10-foot bonus to movement until the end of her turn.

Leap Attack: A rogue who selects this talent gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. As part of Spring Attack, the rogue can instead make an Acrobatics check against the target’s CMD to jump over her target and land at least 5 feet away from it. If successful, she can make a single melee attack at the moment she passes above it without provoking any attacks of opportunity from her target, which causes the target to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against that attack. The rogue gets a running start for the purposes of this talent. A rogue must be at least 4th level to select this talent.

Line Up: A rogue who selects this talent gains Gang Up as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If at least one of her allies is threatening an opponent, the rogue is considered to be flanking that opponent regardless of her actual range if both the rogue and her ally can draw a line between the center of her space and the center of her ally's space which must pass through opposite sides or opposite corners of the opponent's space.

Major Magic (Sp): Functions as per the unchained rogue talent, except the DC is 11 + the rogue’s Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher) and must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 11 before choosing this talent.

Minor Magic (Sp): Functions as per the unchained rogue talent, except the DC is 10 + the rogue’s Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher) and must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 10 before choosing this talent.

Obscuring Blow (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue talent, except the DC is 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher).

Occult Mysticism (Ex): The rogue has unlocked the secrets of the occult world. The rogue gains Psychic Sensitivity as a bonus feat. If she already has Psychic Sensitivity or the ability to cast psychic spells, she instead gains another feat that lists Psychic Sensitivity as a prerequisite. A rogue can use occult skill unlocks even if she is untrained with that skill.

Psychic Adept (Sp): A rogue gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the psychic spell list. If she does not have the Psychic Sensitivity feat or the ability to cast psychic spells, she also receives Psychic Sensitivity as a bonus feat. This otherwise functions and is considered as having the minor magic rogue talent and the Psychic Adept feat for the purpose of meeting other talent or feat prerequisites. If the rogue later selects the major magic rogue talent, she instead gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the psychic spell list. The rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 10 to select this talent.

Quick Movement (Ex): As long as the rogue is unencumbered and wearing light armor or no armor, her base speed increases by 10 feet. A rogue can select this talent multiple times, but at 10th and 18th level respectively. Each time, the rogue’s base speed increases by 10 feet (to a maximum base speed increase of 30 feet). This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the rogue’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Sever Alignment (Su): Functions as per the unchained rogue talent, except the DC is 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher).

Signature Skill (Ex): A rogue with this talent immediately selects an additional skill with her skill specialization ability. A rogue can select this talent multiple times.

Silencing Strike (Su): Functions as per the unchained rogue talent, except the DC is 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher).

Social Talent (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a talent from the vigilante social talent list, using her rogue level as her vigilante level for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. For the purposes of vigilante social talents, the rogue does not have a vigilante identity and is always considered to be in her social identity. The rogue cannot choose a vigilante social talent with the same name as a rogue talent. A rogue can pick this talent more than once.

Strong Impression: A rogue who selects this talent gains Intimidating Prowess as a bonus feat. This talent counts as the Dazzling Display feat and she uses her rogue level in place of her base attack bonus for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of any feat that lists Dazzling Display as a prerequisite. A rogue must meet other prerequisites as normal.

Superior Sniper: A rogue who selects this talent gains Expert Sniper as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Master Sniper (although she must take the feat to gain its benefits).

Survivalist (Ex): A rogue with this talent adds Heal and Survival to her list of class skills. In addition, a rogue who selects this talent can move at her full overland speed when using Survival while hunting and foraging, and a successful check provides food and water for an additional number of creatures equal to her rogue’s edge bonus, and provide long-term care, treat disease, or treat deadly wounds when using Heal for an additional number of creatures equal to her rogue’s edge bonus. This benefit doesn’t stack with effects that reduce the amount of time needed to treat deadly wounds such as the Healer’s Hands feat.

Two-Weapon Master: A rogue who selects this talent gains Two-Weapon Feint as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If she is using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee or ranged attacks, a rogue can forgo her first primary-hand attack to make a Bluff check to feint. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites for Improved Two-Weapon Feint (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits). The rogue must have the two-weapon trick talent before choosing this talent.

Two-Weapon Trick: A rogue who selects this talent gains Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and at 10th level if she possess Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, she also meets all the prerequisites for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (although she must take each feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Unbalancing Trick (Ex): The rogue gains Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. If she succeeds in tripping her target, that creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against her attacks as long as it remains prone. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Greater Trip (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Underhanded (Ex): A rogue with this talent doubles her rogue’s edge bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage.

Underhanded Disarm: A rogue who selects this talent gains Dirty Disarm as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She can attempt a single combat maneuver check or Sleight of Hand check for both maneuvers. A rogue must have the weapon snatcher and underhanded trick rogue talents and be at least 6th level to select this talent.

Unseeing Stalker: A rogue who selects this talent gains Blind-Fight as a bonus feat. She is considered as having darkvision and low-light vision for the purposes of meeting Moonlight Stalker prerequisites and with other feats that have Moonlight Stalker as a prerequisite.

Weapon Snatcher (Ex): The rogue gains Improved Disarm as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent. She receives any bonuses the rogue may have on combat maneuver checks made to disarm a foe on the Sleight of Hand check for this purpose. At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Greater Disarm (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits).

Weapon Training (Ex): The rogue must select one type of weapon (such as longsword or crossbow) when she gains this talent. She gains proficiency with that type of weapon (if she wasn't before) and the Weapon Focus feat as a bonus feat for her selected weapon type.

Wild Magic (Sp): A rogue gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the druid spell list. This otherwise functions and is considered as having the minor magic rogue talent for the purpose of meeting other rogue talent prerequisites. If the rogue later selects the major magic rogue talent, she instead gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the druid spell list. The rogue must have an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score of at least 10 to select this talent.

Other rogue talents that should replace their skill bonuses with instead double your rogue’s edge bonus: Camouflage, Canny Observer, Expert Leaper, False Friend, Getaway Artist, Innocuous Servant, Just a Face in the Crowd, Maneuvering Dodge, Nimble Climber, Riding Stunt, Scavenger, Sczarni Smuggler, Strong Stroke, and Wall Scramble.

Other rogue talents that should replace their bonuses by instead adding your rogue’s edge bonus: Acrobatic Assist, Convincing Lie, Iron Guts, and Rope Master.

Other rogue talents that should instead gain an additional use per day at 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter: Acrobatic Stunt, Assault Leader, Charmer, Disarming Luck, Escaping Stunt, Extinguishing Strike, Fast Fingers, Grig Jig, Hard to Fool, Honeyed Words, Last Ditch Effort, Obscuring Blow, Peerless Maneuver, Positioning Attack, Rapid Boost, Resiliency, Shadow Duplicate, Silencing Strike, and Thrill of the Chase.

Advanced Talents: An ultimate rogue has access to the following advanced talents.

Cutting Edge (Ex): A rogue with this ability immediately selects two additional skills with her skill specialization ability. She can select this advanced talent multiple times.

Getaway Master (Ex): A rogue with this talent can always choose to take 10 on all drive checks, even if she’s in immediate danger or distracted. In addition, once per day, a rogue can choose to take 20 on all drive checks even if she’s in immediate danger or distracted. The rogue must have the getaway artist rogue talent before choosing this talent. She can use this ability an additional time per day at 14th level and every 4 levels thereafter.

Knock-Out Blow (Ex): Functions as per the unchained rogue talent, except the DC is 10 + 1/2 the rogue’s level + the rogue’s Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher) and she can use this ability an additional time per day at 14th level and every 4 levels thereafter.

Master of Disguise (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can don a disguise as a standard action. While wearing that disguise, she takes no penalty for disguising her gender, race, age category, or size category, and viewers don’t receive a Perception bonus if they recognize the rogue on sight, if they are friends or associates, if they are close friends, or if they are intimate. A rogue must have the quick disguise talent to select this talent.

Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Once per day, when making a skill check with a skill selected through the skill specialization ability, she can choose to take 20 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. She can use this ability an additional time per day at 14th level and every 4 levels thereafter.

Unlock Ki (Su): Functions as per the unchained rogue talent, except she can instead spend 2 points from her ki pool as a swift action to gain a number of skill ranks equal to her rogue level with one skill of her choice. This benefit lasts for 1 minute.

Other advanced talents that should instead gain an additional use per day at 14th level and every 4 levels thereafter: Another Day, Defensive Roll, Founder’s Blessing, Harrow Strike, Hunter’s Surprise, Knock-Out Blow, Redirect Attack, Reflexive Shadow Shield, and Thoughtful Reexamining.

Alternate Capstones: An ultimate rogue has access to the following alternate capstones.

Masterful Talent (Ex): At 20th level, the rogue has been a thief, an actor, a merchant, a scout, a confessor, a friend, an assassin, and a dozen more things besides. The rogue increases her competence bonus on skills checks from rogue’s edge by 4.

Editor’s Note: If an archetype replaces trapfinding and/or trap sense with a similar ability that grants a bonus it should instead double her rogue’s edge bonus with those skill checks or add her rogue’s edge bonus as appropriate for each ability at GMs discretion.


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TLDR, but...

I was thinking about the shield proficiency and considering whether rogues should just have buckler proficiency instead, and that gave rise to the RL Bucklers thread.

The interim conclusion of which is that I think a rogue should get buckler and light shield proficiency, but not heavy shield. A heavy shield is just too big and bulky and obstructive to be a thing that a rogue would want, but a light shield (as a RL buckler) or a buckler (a RL bracer) is probably OK. After all, a RL buckler was something you might wear around town, but a heavy shield was a piece of military equipment.


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Mudfoot wrote:

TLDR, but...

I was thinking about the shield proficiency and considering whether rogues should just have buckler proficiency instead, and that gave rise to the RL Bucklers thread.

The interim conclusion of which is that I think a rogue should get buckler and light shield proficiency, but not heavy shield. A heavy shield is just too big and bulky and obstructive to be a thing that a rogue would want, but a light shield (as a RL buckler) or a buckler (a RL bracer) is probably OK. After all, a RL buckler was something you might wear around town, but a heavy shield was a piece of military equipment.

I won't deny that rogues with heavy shield proficiency feels a little weird because its not something you will normally give to a rogue, but I don't believe there is a class with only light shield proficiency (swashbucklers have buckler proficiency, but I don't think there is any other similar example) and it also feels weird that other classes have shield proficiency while rogues do not (bards to be precise, though some classes with 6th-level spells don't have proficiency with shields either so probably bards are outliers?).

I will consider giving only bucklers to rogues though, but I also think that for simplicity all shields except tower shields functions as well.


QUICK UPDATE

Class Skills: The Rogue (Ultimate)'s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, short sword, and shortbow, as well as light armor and bucklers.

I didn't want to copy-paste the whole thing again, lol.


Sorry for joining the conversation late. I just wanted to add that the Rogue class is fine if given the opportunity to be used properly.

The strength of the Rogue is in its flexibility outside of combat; particularly in gathering information or intelligence. Sure, with preparation, other classes can replicate a rogue ability and be superior. But the rogue can act on the spur of the moment to situations as they unfold. For example, the rogue can chat with the barman to uncover a shady contact, follow said contact to their rendezvous unobserved (possibly via rooftop) and scout out the perimeter of the rendezvous building, spotting guards as he does so.

Now with all that reconnaissance done the party is able to plan an assault that maximises their chances - in essence a huge set of buffs - thanks to the rogue.


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Hugo Rune wrote:

Sorry for joining the conversation late. I just wanted to add that the Rogue class is fine if given the opportunity to be used properly.

The strength of the Rogue is in its flexibility outside of combat; particularly in gathering information or intelligence. Sure, with preparation, other classes can replicate a rogue ability and be superior. But the rogue can act on the spur of the moment to situations as they unfold. For example, the rogue can chat with the barman to uncover a shady contact, follow said contact to their rendezvous unobserved (possibly via rooftop) and scout out the perimeter of the rendezvous building, spotting guards as he does so.

Now with all that reconnaissance done the party is able to plan an assault that maximises their chances - in essence a huge set of buffs - thanks to the rogue.

Welcome! Grab a seat and bag of daggers I guess.

This was discussed here already a couple of times, but none of the things you mentioned that rogues can do are necesarily things a rogue has to do because it's already pretty easy to replace a rogue with other classes.

Let's start from the beggining. The first thing that you can read in a class are class skills. Rogues get 21 class skills, while vigilantes get 23, bards and skalds 28, and investigators 30. In regards to skill ranks per level, rogues get 2 more than all these classes but let me add a * here. Investigators have class features that rely on Intelligence, so an average investigator is likely going to have a higher Intelligence than a rogue which isn't forced into increasing it. At mid-to-high levels the investigator is likely to outshine the rogue in that department, and the investigator still has inspiration to roll higher than a rogue and extracts for that extra utility. Bards also have spells and inspire competence to increase their bonuses with their skills, and through versatile performance they can effectively have more skills available to them and only expending all their resources into boosting only one skill since they can replace a lot of skills with a single Perform check (and I'm not mentioning Peagent of the Peacock here, which only requires Bluff to replace every Intelligence-based skill in the game).

The rogue is easily the worse skill monkey class in regards to utility, and though it can exceed in combat it requires tons of system mastery which even then can be replicated by other similar and more reliable choices like vivisectionist alchemist, slayers, or even investigators.

Rogues only have one good save while all these classes have two (rogues only get Reflex). Their weapon proficiencies are also really bad because even bards have proficiency with shields while rogues (the pure martial class) doesn't. Lots of classes have access to both trapfinding and sneak attack as I already mentioned, so the only thing that rogues have which is unique to them is Finesse Training, which forces rogues into a Dexterity role which I don't any class should do (look at swashbucklers and how people only 1-level dip into them, the same happens with rogues and Finesse Training). Your regular road bandit isn't a fighter, he's likely a Strength-based rogue but the system doesn't allow that type of playstyle unless you want to have dead class features in your character in a system which lets you replace literally everything with archetypes, but there isn't a single archetype for Strength-based rogues.

Rogue talents are incredible niche as well, to the point that almost every other class with access to talents has the "rogue talent" talent to take most if not all rogue talents through their own pool of talents since even the devs know that giving rogue talents to non-rogues can't break the game in any shape or form.

Rogues struggle in every department they are in, and they can be easily replaced as well. You can make a somewhat effective rogue? Yeah, but other class can likely do that and better, and honestly its sad to see that the class that represents skill monkey-ing is actually the worse skill monkey in the game to the point that Paizo had to release the investigator and the vigilante to completely outshine the rogue as the default rogue-ish class.


@exequiel759
Thank you for your clear explanation.

I often forget that I have banned the majority of the later classes from my campaign and hate the versimiltude shattering abilities of the bard so have banned that/reskinned it as a noble. Before everyone gets hot under the collar, it's mainly because I run a conversion of the ToEE and it is simpler to limit the classes to those available in 1e.

You sre absolutely right, there are better classes. But I would argue therr shouldn't be! Paizo messed up the rogue, tried to fix it with Unchained and ended up trampling all over it's space with new and superior classes as part of the inevitable power creep that comes with later published material.

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