Which of these 2 "Healer" bards would you prefer in a party?


Advice

Silver Crusade

Once again im torn between 2 ideas and once again I am forced to split them into 2 builds.

The general idea is that the bard gained their powered by making a pact with a unicorn, this grants them advanced healing powers and abilities as well as limited precognition.

Arcane Healer/Filidh Bard

Traits:Reactionary
Indominable Faith

1.Weapon Finesse
3.Power Attack
5.Channeling Force
7.Extra Channel
9.Lingering Performance
11.Improved Critical(Rapier)
13.Divine Interference

Weapon of Choice: Rapier

or

1.Fey Foundling
3.Power Attack
5.Channeling Force
7.Extra Channel
9.Lingering Performance
11.Extra Channel
13.Divine Interference

Weapon of Choice:Longspear

Spells to Remember
Reinvigorating Wind:Level 2
Accept Affliction:Level 3
Purging Finale:Level 3
Song of Kyonin:Level 4

Phylactery of Positive Channeling
Strand of Prayer Beads

The first build uses a rapier hoping to maximize the extra damage gained from channeling force by trying to get as many crits as possible.

The other one is decisively more tanking aiming to abuse the healing focus the build is going for.

Between these 2 which would, you rather have in your party and how would you improve both.


I'd opt for the Longspear build. I've personally built something similar though with Skald (Sunsinger) and made use of Combat Reflexes to turn it into an AoO striker so that I don't have to waste my turn on making attacks, but using other things (assist others, spellcasting, etc). I also threw the option for variant multiclass Paladin in there so that I get some Lay on Hands and Smite Evil, but that might be to restrictive for anyone else on feats. Might not fit your concept.

Silver Crusade

DeathlessOne wrote:
I'd opt for the Longspear build. I've personally built something similar though with Skald (Sunsinger) and made use of Combat Reflexes to turn it into an AoO striker so that I don't have to waste my turn on making attacks, but using other things (assist others, spellcasting, etc). I also threw the option for variant multiclass Paladin in there so that I get some Lay on Hands and Smite Evil, but that might be to restrictive for anyone else on feats. Might not fit your concept.

Well I know that Combat reflexes is like standard issue for reach weapons but I wanted to gauge what my other options were since I already made like 2-3 combat reflexes builds


Build 1 does not work, because extra dice are not multiplied on a critical hit. Therefore the damage from channeling force is not multiplied on critical hit.

Build 2 also has some issues. Fey Foundling only works on yourself, so it is not going to be of much use to the rest of the party. You seem to be focusing on channeling energy, but don’t have selective channel so will be healing your enemies if you channel in combat. Even if you do take selective channel, using channel energy is going to make it so you can’t do anything else in the round. In combat healing is almost never worth it, but this build is not showing anything else it does. You are using a long spear as your chosen weapon, but don’t seem to have any feats to improve its use. It is not a finessible weapon so are you focusing on STR or DEX as your combat stat? The bard is only proficient with light armor, so focusing on STR may lead to a lower AC and you getting hit. You are also taking power attack on a medium BAB class with no attack boosters.

It seems you need to come up with a build 3. Play a half elf and use Ancestral Arms to gain proficiency with the elven branch spear. Take Weapon finesse as your first level feat, this means you can focus on DEX as your primary combat stat. Take Combat Reflexes as your 3rd level feat. This will allow you to get in more AoO with the spear. This combination will give you more attacks and a better chance to hit. For your 5th level feat take selective channel so you can heal the party without healing the enemy. After this take extra channel and/or lingering performance. Depending on how high your DEX is you may also want to consider taking medium armor proficiency. Your spells are considered divine so don’t have to worry about spell failure, but you cannot use metal armor. A dragonhide or ironwood breastplate would work fairly well if your DEX is 16.

Silver Crusade

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Build 1 does not work, because extra dice are not multiplied on a critical hit. Therefore the damage from channeling force is not multiplied on critical hit.

Build 2 also has some issues. Fey Foundling only works on yourself, so it is not going to be of much use to the rest of the party. You seem to be focusing on channeling energy, but don’t have selective channel so will be healing your enemies if you channel in combat. Even if you do take selective channel, using channel energy is going to make it so you can’t do anything else in the round. In combat healing is almost never worth it, but this build is not showing anything else it does. You are using a long spear as your chosen weapon, but don’t seem to have any feats to improve its use. It is not a finessible weapon so are you focusing on STR or DEX as your combat stat? The bard is only proficient with light armor, so focusing on STR may lead to a lower AC and you getting hit. You are also taking power attack on a medium BAB class with no attack boosters.

It seems you need to come up with a build 3. Play a half elf and use Ancestral Arms to gain proficiency with the elven branch spear. Take Weapon finesse as your first level feat, this means you can focus on DEX as your primary combat stat. Take Combat Reflexes as your 3rd level feat. This will allow you to get in more AoO with the spear. This combination will give you more attacks and a better chance to hit. For your 5th level feat take selective channel so you can heal the party without healing the enemy. After this take extra channel and/or lingering performance. Depending on how high your DEX is you may also want to consider taking medium armor proficiency. Your spells are considered divine so don’t have to worry about spell failure, but you cannot use metal armor. A dragonhide or ironwood breastplate would work fairly well if your DEX is 16.

You read channeling force wrong. The feat gives you a +1 to damage for every 1d6 of channeling energy you can do, it doesn't convert the channel energy into force damage, that would actually be kind of ridiculous.

See for yourself "A swift action, you can expend one use of channel energy to grant your weapon attacks a bonus on damage rolls equal to the number of dice of your channel energy. This extra damage is force damage. This lasts for your next three weapon attacks or until the end of combat, whichever comes first."


I'll be frank, and please do not be offended, I wouldn't want either of these in my party. As a combat character they are both pretty weak, and as a healer, they are both giving up too much healing to fuel their weak combat stuff.

As a bard their BAB isn't good enough to count on getting hits, and you aren't doing anything to increase that chance to hit (and you are losing chances to hit with power attack). So while having plenty of AOOs would be cool for the extra damage from Channel Force, it's just not going to give as much bonus damage as it seems.

if I were forced to choose between these 2, the one with the spear is probably slightly better, but not by much for sure.

Silver Crusade

TxSam88 wrote:

I'll be frank, and please do not be offended, I wouldn't want either of these in my party. As a combat character they are both pretty weak, and as a healer, they are both giving up too much healing to fuel their weak combat stuff.

As a bard their BAB isn't good enough to count on getting hits, and you aren't doing anything to increase that chance to hit (and you are losing chances to hit with power attack). So while having plenty of AOOs would be cool for the extra damage from Channel Force, it's just not going to give as much bonus damage as it seems.

if I were forced to choose between these 2, the one with the spear is probably slightly better, but not by much for sure.

Then what would you do cause frankly I'm out of ideas?


If you are pretty much set on the Bard as a class, with those archetypes, I'd do away with the Channel Force and Fey Foundling, and maybe even power attack (the other feats are fine, though I'm not a fan of Divine Interference). Swap them for feats that increase your accuracy or even consider picking up a variant multiclass (Magus is full of win, as it has built in weapon enhancements and the magus arcanas can really help you with other stuff which can mimic the Channel Force ability, like Pool Strike combined with Spellstrike).

I'd go with a Human for the bonus feat and:

1) Combat Reflexes or Lingering Performance
1B) Additional Traits (Ancestral Weapon: Cold Iron Longspear & {something})
3) MAGUS VMC: Arcane Pool
5) Selective Channel
7) MAGUS VMC: Arcana (Pool Strike)
9) Extra Channel
11) MAGUS VMC: Spellstrike
13) Extra Channel
15) MAGUS VMC: Arcana (Broad Study)
-----whatever you want past here-----

This will get you a +2 to hit from level 1, with an increasing bonus to hit and damage from level 3 onwards. You could opt for power attack then, but feats are at a premium and you don't really need it at that point. Two-handed weapon + strength focus should net you enough damage to remain relevant, plus whatever spells you cast or Masterpieces you want to use in place of the many bard song performances you've traded away. Also, human let's you pick up new spells known with the favored class bonus, you are free to trade off bard spells for masterpieces, rather than feats.

All in all, your idea is not bad and, outside of a higher optimization game, will perform just fine. Key your ability scores as follows: STR=CHA>DEX>CON=INT>WIS. I'd make this character (20pt buy) with Str: 16 (14+2), Dex 13, Con: 12, Int: 13, Wis: 10, Cha: 15. Put level up points into CHA+1, Dex+1, Int+1, Con (or Str) +2 depending on your needs. Use magic items to keep your physical ability scores higher. Work your way up to the heaviest mithril medium armor you can get a hold of.


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
TxSam88 wrote:

I'll be frank, and please do not be offended, I wouldn't want either of these in my party. As a combat character they are both pretty weak, and as a healer, they are both giving up too much healing to fuel their weak combat stuff.

As a bard their BAB isn't good enough to count on getting hits, and you aren't doing anything to increase that chance to hit (and you are losing chances to hit with power attack). So while having plenty of AOOs would be cool for the extra damage from Channel Force, it's just not going to give as much bonus damage as it seems.

if I were forced to choose between these 2, the one with the spear is probably slightly better, but not by much for sure.

Then what would you do cause frankly I'm out of ideas?

Focus on buffing the party to end combat more quickly, and buy a stash of (arcane) wands of cure light wounds for post combat healing.

But I'd still play the longspear guy to help threaten in combat. You're never going to the warrior a full BAB character is, but you can help with positioning.

Reactionary healing is rarely useful, unless a party member is about to go unconscious.

Basically every party I've played in did healing as something in between combat, not during. So spending a lot of resources trying to make in combat healing work just never made sense to us. Preventing damage (including by killing your enemy first) was always much more effective PC action to enemy action. At least until you get the Heal spell (which bards don't get).

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
TxSam88 wrote:

I'll be frank, and please do not be offended, I wouldn't want either of these in my party. As a combat character they are both pretty weak, and as a healer, they are both giving up too much healing to fuel their weak combat stuff.

As a bard their BAB isn't good enough to count on getting hits, and you aren't doing anything to increase that chance to hit (and you are losing chances to hit with power attack). So while having plenty of AOOs would be cool for the extra damage from Channel Force, it's just not going to give as much bonus damage as it seems.

if I were forced to choose between these 2, the one with the spear is probably slightly better, but not by much for sure.

Then what would you do cause frankly I'm out of ideas?

Focus on buffing the party to end combat more quickly, and buy a stash of (arcane) wands of cure light wounds for post combat healing.

But I'd still play the longspear guy to help threaten in combat. You're never going to the warrior a full BAB character is, but you can help with positioning.

Reactionary healing is rarely useful, unless a party member is about to go unconscious.

Basically every party I've played in did healing as something in between combat, not during. So spending a lot of resources trying to make in combat healing work just never made sense to us. Preventing damage (including by killing your enemy first) was always much more effective PC action to enemy action. At least until you get the Heal spell (which bards don't get).

I'll be honest with you dude, that is so painfully generic that I'd frankly rather play something else. Like ok the whole thing with unicorns is they have a focus on purification and stuff I.E healing, the reason the longspear one is so healing focused isn't for my party but for me to make me into something of a pseudo tank along with the masterpiece Endless Waltz of the Eldest played in tandum with the spell song if kyonin. If you're telling me that just wouldn't be worth running then I got no choice but to label this a failure.


I'll just chime in here to clarify one thing: in combat healing CAN BE quite effective, and you don't have to spend that much character resources to make it. However, it becomes LESS effective the higher the group tends to play on the optimization scale. If you want to play the game on "advanced", "expert", "master", or "Insanity" mode ... healing is best left for after the fights. ... Unless you are a really good healer.

An example of a really good healer would be someone built with elite NPC stats being able to out heal mythic gestalt characters, without being gestalt themselves AND still be able to deal damage in a reliable manner. But that is cranking up the optimization to the maximum and bucking several basic assumptions about how to build spellcasters.

Don't give up on your idea. Just make sure that the table you play it at isn't going to make it unpalatable to play.

Silver Crusade

DeathlessOne wrote:

I'll just chime in here to clarify one thing: in combat healing CAN BE quite effective, and you don't have to spend that much character resources to make it. However, it becomes LESS effective the higher the group tends to play on the optimization scale. If you want to play the game on "advanced", "expert", "master", or "Insanity" mode ... healing is best left for after the fights. ... Unless you are a really good healer.

An example of a really good healer would be someone built with elite NPC stats being able to out heal mythic gestalt characters, without being gestalt themselves AND still be able to deal damage in a reliable manner. But that is cranking up the optimization to the maximum and bucking several basic assumptions about how to build spellcasters.

Don't give up on your idea. Just make sure that the table you play it at isn't going to make it unpalatable to play.

Yeah after thinking about it, I've decided to go with the rapier route. It still does what I want it to while still having decent damage Plus it just flows better, the longspear route while more thematic, feels like trying to put a round peg into a square hole.


You might consider arcane strike and/or fencing grace as damage boosters, instead of power attack or channeling force.

Silver Crusade

Java Man wrote:
You might consider arcane strike and/or fencing grace as damage boosters, instead of power attack or channeling force.

Arcane Strike doesn't scale as well as Channeling force, and fencing grace requires another feat on an already tight build.

Besides this build uses the filidh bard archetype which switches out arcane for divine magic so it wouldn't work anyway.


Ah, missed that about Fildh, seems you have your ideas sorted, enjoy!


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
TxSam88 wrote:

I'll be frank, and please do not be offended, I wouldn't want either of these in my party. As a combat character they are both pretty weak, and as a healer, they are both giving up too much healing to fuel their weak combat stuff.

As a bard their BAB isn't good enough to count on getting hits, and you aren't doing anything to increase that chance to hit (and you are losing chances to hit with power attack). So while having plenty of AOOs would be cool for the extra damage from Channel Force, it's just not going to give as much bonus damage as it seems.

if I were forced to choose between these 2, the one with the spear is probably slightly better, but not by much for sure.

Then what would you do cause frankly I'm out of ideas?

Focus on buffing the party to end combat more quickly, and buy a stash of (arcane) wands of cure light wounds for post combat healing.

But I'd still play the longspear guy to help threaten in combat. You're never going to the warrior a full BAB character is, but you can help with positioning.

Reactionary healing is rarely useful, unless a party member is about to go unconscious.

Basically every party I've played in did healing as something in between combat, not during. So spending a lot of resources trying to make in combat healing work just never made sense to us. Preventing damage (including by killing your enemy first) was always much more effective PC action to enemy action. At least until you get the Heal spell (which bards don't get).

I'll be honest with you dude, that is so painfully generic that I'd frankly rather play something else. Like ok the whole thing with unicorns is they have a focus on purification and stuff I.E healing, the reason the longspear one is so healing focused isn't for my party but for me to make me into something of a pseudo tank along with the masterpiece Endless Waltz of the Eldest played in tandum with the spell song if kyonin. If...

What I'm telling you is that what you're planning is less effective than just using Inspire Courage so you're party can kill the enemy more quickly.

Fast Healing 2 and healing an extra 3 hit points per healing spell cast aren't going to nearly as valuable as maximizing Inspire Courage can be.

If you're response is to say it's a failure, that's fine. It's true I'm not trying to meet your criteria.

You asked which bard I would prefer to have, and I basically said "Neither, I'd like a bard that focuses on things bards are good at, specifically Inspire Courage".


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The biggest problem with Channeling Force is you have so few uses of channel energy to use. Spending 2 feats to get +6 to damage 5 times per day at 12th level is not worth it. It also leaves you no channel energies to heal. You are also taking power attack on a medium BAB character that does not have any accuracy boosters. This character is going to struggle to land a blow against the boss, and when they do their chance of confirming a critical hit is going to be extremely low. Using channeling force against minions would work but seems like a waste of resources. You have a unique concept but are struggling to figure out how to make it work.

Why are you focusing on a finesse build? Unicorns are not dainty little ponies; they are large horses. They don’t use weapon finesse. Instead of going with a DEX build switch to a STR based build with minimal DEX. As a bard you are only proficient with light armor, but you can spend your feats to become proficient with medium and even heavy armor. As a divine caster you don’t worry about arcane spell failure so can cast your spells in plate mail. Bards are also proficient with long sword so use that instead of a rapier. Bards are also proficient with shields which will boost your AC higher. If you really need the damage, you can always drop the shield and use the longsword two handed for extra damage. Using it two handed would also boost the damage form power attack.

Feats

1: Armor Proficiency (Medium)
3: Power Attack
5: Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
7: Channeling Force
9: Lingering Performance
11: Improved Critical (Longsword)
13: Divine Interference

Now you are a tank. You do decent damage without having to blow limited resources. You can wade through the minions fairly easily. You don’t have as many uses of channeling energy, but you are also not reliant on it for damage. It now acts as kind of smite evil that lets you do extra damage when you really need it. If you don’t need to use channeling force, you can use channel energy to heal the party out of combat and actually function as a healer.


What about approaching this from a different direction?

What about an evangelist cleric of an appropriate deity associated with Pegasi (assuming their is one)?

As a cleric you can get revolving access to any condition spells needed, spontaneously cast cure spells, have channel energy for healing. And you'll get inspire courage.

I feel like this can thematically be close to what you're wanting, that the bard chassis you're looking at just doesn't work well for.

That said I did miss the original statements about the bard archetype and pegasus association.


Biggest question i have is what level do you start at? A build starting at level 1 sometimes has vastly different needs than a build which skips the first X painful levels.


Also a oracle with the life mystery could be a great choice. They can get access to life link, which is great for healing hp damage.

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:
Also a oracle with the life mystery could be a great choice. They can get access to life link, which is great for healing hp damage.

To be honest I already build that one and it does work great, but I'm trying to build a trifecta of these things. But the more I work on it the more I feel you may be right and the issue is actually the bard itself.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The biggest problem with Channeling Force is you have so few uses of channel energy to use. Spending 2 feats to get +6 to damage 5 times per day at 12th level is not worth it. It also leaves you no channel energies to heal. You are also taking power attack on a medium BAB character that does not have any accuracy boosters. This character is going to struggle to land a blow against the boss, and when they do their chance of confirming a critical hit is going to be extremely low. Using channeling force against minions would work but seems like a waste of resources. You have a unique concept but are struggling to figure out how to make it work.

Why are you focusing on a finesse build? Unicorns are not dainty little ponies; they are large horses. They don’t use weapon finesse. Instead of going with a DEX build switch to a STR based build with minimal DEX. As a bard you are only proficient with light armor, but you can spend your feats to become proficient with medium and even heavy armor. As a divine caster you don’t worry about arcane spell failure so can cast your spells in plate mail. Bards are also proficient with long sword so use that instead of a rapier. Bards are also proficient with shields which will boost your AC higher. If you really need the damage, you can always drop the shield and use the longsword two handed for extra damage. Using it two handed would also boost the damage form power attack.

Feats

1: Armor Proficiency (Medium)
3: Power Attack
5: Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
7: Channeling Force
9: Lingering Performance
11: Improved Critical (Longsword)
13: Divine Interference

Now you are a tank. You do decent damage without having to blow limited resources. You can wade through the minions fairly easily. You don’t have as many uses of channeling energy, but you are also not reliant on it for damage. It now acts as kind of smite evil that lets you do extra damage when you really need it. If you don’t need to use channeling force, you can use channel energy...

Alright how about this, if inspired courage is that damn important to making a bard function, how about we swap out filidh for fortune-teller?


Telling someone that you have to be able to do X if you are class Y is b~~&!*&&. The name you put in the class section of your character sheet does not matter. What really matters is that your character should have a viable concept and be able to contribute to the success of the party in a meaningful way. I write up a “Rogue” using any number of classes without having a single level of rouge. In fact, the standard rogue is probably the least effective way to write up a rogue. One of the most effective “Rogues” is the archaeologist bard. They trade away all performances for a short-term luck bonus. I doubt any group would prefer a chained rogue over an archeologist bard.

Inspire courage is a decent ability but is not the only useful performance a bard has. It is also a morale bonus which is fairly common, so it does not always stack with a lot of things. Echo of Natures Song grants an insight bonus to AC and reflex saves. Insight bonuses are fairly rare so will probably stack with just about everything. Which ability is going to be more useful is going to depend on the party. In a party with a heavy focus on melee and ranged combat without any way to boost themselves inspire courage is probably more useful. In a party heavy on spell casters with lower defenses Echo of Natures Song is going to do more. Even a combat focused party will still find the bonus to AC and reflex saves useful.

While healing is necessary, the character needs to contribute more to the success of the party to be a competent character. Divinatory Song is actually pretty decent. Getting a 4th level cleric spell at 5th level as a spell like ability is nothing to be sneezed at. Like any bard this character offers a lot of useful non-combat abilities. So, the real problem is how does this character contribute to combat?

Bards have a medium BAB and are 6/9 casters. This means they are not the best at either combat or spell casting but are competent at both. Both specializations require investing in different things, so a bard needs to pick one as his primary focus. From the looks of it your choice was to focus on combat over spells. The big problem with your build is that it relies on channeling force too much. That and power attack are your only ways to boost your damage. Channeling force has a very limited number of uses so you are spending more feats to get more. Power attack imposes a penalty to hit which brings down to a low BAB class. A finesse build is feat intensive, and you simply do not have the feats to pull this off if you want to use channeling force.

Bards usually go with a finesse build because they cannot use anything but light armor without having to deal with arcane spell failure. Since your spells are divine instead of arcane you don’t face this issue. Since you don’t have proficiency with anything but light armor you will need to spend feats to be able to use it. A STR based build requires very few feats; about all you need is power attack. A STR based build increases both your chance to hit and damage without having to spend a single feat. If you use a weapon that can be used two handed that gives you even more damage. With your original build at 12th level, you will be getting a +13 damage. With a STR based build your damage bonus goes up to +21 when using a longsword two handed. The Rapier does have a better chance to get a critical hit, but the lack of static damage bonus means you are doing slightly more than the longswords normal damage with a critical hit.

Bards have a couple of decent combat boost spells you can use on a tough opponent. First and probably the best is Heroism. The bonus is only +2 but it applies to nearly everything and last a long time. At high levels this last for hours. Latter Dance of a Hundred Cuts can get up to a +5 bonus. Using this and channeling force will be enough to keep you relevant in a boss fight. Your normal damage will be enough to keep you relevant against lesser foes. Since you are not a full BAB class furious focus might be worth taking.

Silver Crusade

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Telling someone that you have to be able to do X if you are class Y is b&&~#+##. The name you put in the class section of your character sheet does not matter. What really matters is that your character should have a viable concept and be able to contribute to the success of the party in a meaningful way. I write up a “Rogue” using any number of classes without having a single level of rouge. In fact, the standard rogue is probably the least effective way to write up a rogue. One of the most effective “Rogues” is the archaeologist bard. They trade away all performances for a short-term luck bonus. I doubt any group would prefer a chained rogue over an archeologist bard.

Inspire courage is a decent ability but is not the only useful performance a bard has. It is also a morale bonus which is fairly common, so it does not always stack with a lot of things. Echo of Natures Song grants an insight bonus to AC and reflex saves. Insight bonuses are fairly rare so will probably stack with just about everything. Which ability is going to be more useful is going to depend on the party. In a party with a heavy focus on melee and ranged combat without any way to boost themselves inspire courage is probably more useful. In a party heavy on spell casters with lower defenses Echo of Natures Song is going to do more. Even a combat focused party will still find the bonus to AC and reflex saves useful.

While healing is necessary, the character needs to contribute more to the success of the party to be a competent character. Divinatory Song is actually pretty decent. Getting a 4th level cleric spell at 5th level as a spell like ability is nothing to be sneezed at. Like any bard this character offers a lot of useful non-combat abilities. So, the real problem is how does this character contribute to combat?

Bards have a medium BAB and are 6/9 casters. This means they are not the best at either combat or spell casting but are competent at both. Both specializations require investing in...

A couple of things with that

1. If that's the case wouldn't I just be better off using a long spear anyway? It would have the same damage, and reach and would be thematic to boot.

2. As much as I hate needing items for a build to function, would the greyflame enchant be appropriate as a substitute for channeling force? That way I can focus on other things.

Everything else aside from the armor is sound and I was gonna go that route anyway. Idk I just can't see someone who makes a pact with a unicorn walking around in full heavy armor.


What weapon you use does not really matter that much; long spear would work fine. As a bard you are never going to match a full BAB in combat and that is not what you should be trying to do. What you should be trying to do is to contribute in a meaningful way. If you go with the longspear you might want to look at shield brace. Doing that along with combat reflexes would make you a fairly effective tank.

The way I see it Unicorns are basically warhorses not riding horses. As such I think using more than light armor is appropriate. You may not need to go to heavy armor but using medium armor I think fits. Since you cannot use metal armor, using medium armor may work out better anyways. Finding a dragonhide or ironwood breastplate should not be too hard. Until then laminar (horn) armor should work.

You have not mentioned what race your character is going to be. The human bonus feat would make getting the build online quicker, but it can be done with any race. Many of the feats you need require a +1 BAB, which means you can’t take them at 1st level. Medium armor proficiency and combat reflexes don’t have a BAB requirement so those could be taken as a 1st level human bard. You could get power attack, shield focus and shield brace by 7th level as a human.

Using a greyflame spear is a good idea. The damage does not scale up, but it at lower levels it does more damage, and makes better use of a very limited resource. Being able to bypass DR and counting as a good and silver weapon really fits the whole unicorn theme. In fact, this fits a lot better than the channeling force.

Silver Crusade

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

What weapon you use does not really matter that much; long spear would work fine. As a bard you are never going to match a full BAB in combat and that is not what you should be trying to do. What you should be trying to do is to contribute in a meaningful way. If you go with the longspear you might want to look at shield brace. Doing that along with combat reflexes would make you a fairly effective tank.

The way I see it Unicorns are basically warhorses not riding horses. As such I think using more than light armor is appropriate. You may not need to go to heavy armor but using medium armor I think fits. Since you cannot use metal armor, using medium armor may work out better anyways. Finding a dragonhide or ironwood breastplate should not be too hard. Until then laminar (horn) armor should work.

You have not mentioned what race your character is going to be. The human bonus feat would make getting the build online quicker, but it can be done with any race. Many of the feats you need require a +1 BAB, which means you can’t take them at 1st level. Medium armor proficiency and combat reflexes don’t have a BAB requirement so those could be taken as a 1st level human bard. You could get power attack, shield focus and shield brace by 7th level as a human.

Using a greyflame spear is a good idea. The damage does not scale up, but it at lower levels it does more damage, and makes better use of a very limited resource. Being able to bypass DR and counting as a good and silver weapon really fits the whole unicorn theme. In fact, this fits a lot better than the channeling force.

I try to make builds that anybody can theoretically jump into so I tend to make them race agnostic, so to speak. But taking all this advice into consideration this is what I came up with.

Arcane Healer/Filidh Bard

Traits:Reactionary
Magical Lineage(Dance of 100 Cuts)

1.Fey Foundling
3.Selective Channeling
5.Extra Channel
7.Power Attack
9.Lingering Performance
11.Divine Interference
13.Encouraging Spell

Weapon of Choice:Greyflame Longspear

Spells to Remember
Reinvigorating Wind:Level 2
Accept Affliction:Level 3
Purging Finale:Level 3
Song of Kyonin:Level 4

Phylactery of Positive Channeling
Strand of Prayer Beads

I figured making it so a single cure spell can heal back half of my health could let me take a reliable beating.


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Also a oracle with the life mystery could be a great choice. They can get access to life link, which is great for healing hp damage.

To be honest I already build that one and it does work great, but I'm trying to build a trifecta of these things. But the more I work on it the more I feel you may be right and the issue is actually the bard itself.

Yeah, unfortunately the bard just isn't a great chassis for group healing as you're finding.

Can you make it do it? Kind of. In the same way you can make a square peg fit in a rough hole by whittling away the size of the peg until it fits. But you're going to leave sizeable gaps all around it because of a basic mismatch.

As to inspire courage being "damned important", it is typically the biggest thing the rest of the group is going to be looking for (in combat) for a bard to do. Now sure, not all bards do it.

But if someone brought a bard without inspire courage and instead had mediocre healing in it's place...well I wouldn't say anything because I'm not that kind of person, but I'd be disappointed. Inspire courage is really great assuming you've got 2+ people in the group who are going to focus on doing martial things every round (which the prototypical party does, you know fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric).

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Also a oracle with the life mystery could be a great choice. They can get access to life link, which is great for healing hp damage.

To be honest I already build that one and it does work great, but I'm trying to build a trifecta of these things. But the more I work on it the more I feel you may be right and the issue is actually the bard itself.

Yeah, unfortunately the bard just isn't a great chassis for group healing as you're finding.

Can you make it do it? Kind of. In the same way you can make a square peg fit in a rough hole by whittling away the size of the peg until it fits. But you're going to leave sizeable gaps all around it because of a basic mismatch.

As to inspire courage being "damned important", it is typically the biggest thing the rest of the group is going to be looking for (in combat) for a bard to do. Now sure, not all bards do it.

But if someone brought a bard without inspire courage and instead had mediocre healing in it's place...well I wouldn't say anything because I'm not that kind of person, but I'd be disappointed. Inspire courage is really great assuming you've got 2+ people in the group who are going to focus on doing martial things every round (which the prototypical party does, you know fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric).

Honestly the more I think about it the more the bard just feels like a 5th wheel that is nice but not really needed.


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Also a oracle with the life mystery could be a great choice. They can get access to life link, which is great for healing hp damage.

To be honest I already build that one and it does work great, but I'm trying to build a trifecta of these things. But the more I work on it the more I feel you may be right and the issue is actually the bard itself.

Yeah, unfortunately the bard just isn't a great chassis for group healing as you're finding.

Can you make it do it? Kind of. In the same way you can make a square peg fit in a rough hole by whittling away the size of the peg until it fits. But you're going to leave sizeable gaps all around it because of a basic mismatch.

As to inspire courage being "damned important", it is typically the biggest thing the rest of the group is going to be looking for (in combat) for a bard to do. Now sure, not all bards do it.

But if someone brought a bard without inspire courage and instead had mediocre healing in it's place...well I wouldn't say anything because I'm not that kind of person, but I'd be disappointed. Inspire courage is really great assuming you've got 2+ people in the group who are going to focus on doing martial things every round (which the prototypical party does, you know fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric).

Honestly the more I think about it the more the bard just feels like a 5th wheel that is nice but not really needed.

Bards are a great addition to a party IMO, I'd rather have a classic bard than a rogue in the party. Especially if the bard is cool with picking up something to allow them to disable magical traps and invest in disable device, there's very little a chained rogue brings to the table IMO.

But, if you have the classic party roster trying to make a healing bard with a cleric in the group probably isn't great for trying to cover all bases.

I guess one question we should have all asked long ago, what is your party composition?

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Also a oracle with the life mystery could be a great choice. They can get access to life link, which is great for healing hp damage.

To be honest I already build that one and it does work great, but I'm trying to build a trifecta of these things. But the more I work on it the more I feel you may be right and the issue is actually the bard itself.

Yeah, unfortunately the bard just isn't a great chassis for group healing as you're finding.

Can you make it do it? Kind of. In the same way you can make a square peg fit in a rough hole by whittling away the size of the peg until it fits. But you're going to leave sizeable gaps all around it because of a basic mismatch.

As to inspire courage being "damned important", it is typically the biggest thing the rest of the group is going to be looking for (in combat) for a bard to do. Now sure, not all bards do it.

But if someone brought a bard without inspire courage and instead had mediocre healing in it's place...well I wouldn't say anything because I'm not that kind of person, but I'd be disappointed. Inspire courage is really great assuming you've got 2+ people in the group who are going to focus on doing martial things every round (which the prototypical party does, you know fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric).

Honestly the more I think about it the more the bard just feels like a 5th wheel that is nice but not really needed.

Bards are a great addition to a party IMO, I'd rather have a classic bard than a rogue in the party. Especially if the bard is cool with picking up something to allow them to disable magical traps and invest in disable device, there's very little a chained rogue brings to the table IMO.

But, if you have the classic party roster trying to make a healing bard with a cleric in the group probably isn't great for trying to cover all bases.

I guess one question we should have all asked long...

Truth be told there wasn't really any, I tend to make builds that can largely take care of themselves.


Arcane Healer does not alter any bardic performances. It trades away Lore Master and Versatile Performance.

Filidh is what is replacing inspire courage and it replaces it with Echoes of Nature’s Song. Getting a bonus to AC and all reflex saves is in my opinion a fair trade. Especially since the bonus is an insight bonus and will probably stack with almost everything. It also trades out suggestion for Divinatory Song, which to me is a strait upgrade. The other performances that are traded out are also fairly decent. They also get the ability to trade spells for extra rounds of performance and to ignore arcane spell failure from armor.

Are you really going to be disappointed when the entire party including summons gets a bonus to AC and reflex saves? The fighter, cleric and wizard all have poor reflex saves. The wizard typically has crap for AC, the rogue and the cleric usually don't have particularly high AC, and all of them have lower HP than the full BAB classes. The AC bonus also improves your touch AC so helps to protect you from touch attacks including, but not limited to spells, and incorporeal creatures. It seems like Echoes of Natures song is actually more beneficial to the prototypical party than inspire courage.

Silver Crusade

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Arcane Healer does not alter any bardic performances. It trades away Lore Master and Versatile Performance.

Filidh is what is replacing inspire courage and it replaces it with Echoes of Nature’s Song. Getting a bonus to AC and all reflex saves is in my opinion a fair trade. Especially since the bonus is an insight bonus and will probably stack with almost everything. It also trades out suggestion for Divinatory Song, which to me is a strait upgrade. The other performances that are traded out are also fairly decent. They also get the ability to trade spells for extra rounds of performance and to ignore arcane spell failure from armor.

Are you really going to be disappointed when the entire party including summons gets a bonus to AC and reflex saves? The fighter, cleric and wizard all have poor reflex saves. The wizard typically has crap for AC, the rogue and the cleric usually don't have particularly high AC, and all of them have lower HP than the full BAB classes. The AC bonus also improves your touch AC so helps to protect you from touch attacks including, but not limited to spells, and incorporeal creatures. It seems like Echoes of Natures song is actually more beneficial to the prototypical party than inspire courage.

That's kind of what I'm thinking, unlike inspire courage which seems to only really be useful to frontliners, Echoes of natures song is useful to basically everybody.


Peak Munchkin alert:

Seriously Filidh is fine. If optimized properly, making use of the banner of ancient kings, a dervish sicke and the flagbearer feat you are looking at +4 AC, +4 Reflex and +2 to attack rolls and damage, as soon as you can afford the 28K for the kit and are level 8.

Normal bard gets +7 to attack rolls and damage instead, with no increase in AC or reflex saves (but relevant increase in some will save).

It obviously depends, the +4 AC is meh if it reduces enemies hit chance from 80% to 60%, but really great if it reduces them from 25% to 5%. As such, it is far more useful for frontliners which typically have high AC to truely benefit from it.

Note that insight boni apply to touch and flat footed AC as well as to CMD, that gets overlooked pretty often.

If you are going for a support centric build, aimed at keeping your allies alive, and not looking to actually engage in melee much, here are some things you could consider:

--Have about 12 STR, and mostly use Dex and Cha as stats, or dump str if you can get a flagpole that is finessable.
--Invest in Combat reflexes and Bodyguard
--Have the Helpfull trait

By just hitting AC 10, you now have a +3 AC aura, essentially, for as long as you have AoOs. And you can use aid another, when you are already performing and dont want to cast a spell, to give your friends a +3 to hit. Oh, if your party happens to be kin, there is a handy trait called kind defender, which ups the defensive bonus to a untyped +5, which can get online at really early levels.
Midgame, you are handing out +9 AC, from the Filidh bonus and the aid another with helpfull and kin defender.

This is 2 traits and 3 feats, a human bard can have this at level 3, although he will ocassionally miss aid another actions (he has 2 BAB, 1 ish STR, 1ish from the flagpole and it can be masterworked for another +1 so +5, missing 20% of the time).

If you are optimizing for support as a Bard, consider this, damage not taken is also healing :).


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Arcane Healer does not alter any bardic performances. It trades away Lore Master and Versatile Performance.

Filidh is what is replacing inspire courage and it replaces it with Echoes of Nature’s Song. Getting a bonus to AC and all reflex saves is in my opinion a fair trade. Especially since the bonus is an insight bonus and will probably stack with almost everything. It also trades out suggestion for Divinatory Song, which to me is a strait upgrade. The other performances that are traded out are also fairly decent. They also get the ability to trade spells for extra rounds of performance and to ignore arcane spell failure from armor.

Are you really going to be disappointed when the entire party including summons gets a bonus to AC and reflex saves? The fighter, cleric and wizard all have poor reflex saves. The wizard typically has crap for AC, the rogue and the cleric usually don't have particularly high AC, and all of them have lower HP than the full BAB classes. The AC bonus also improves your touch AC so helps to protect you from touch attacks including, but not limited to spells, and incorporeal creatures. It seems like Echoes of Natures song is actually more beneficial to the prototypical party than inspire courage.

That's kind of what I'm thinking, unlike inspire courage which seems to only really be useful to frontliners, Echoes of natures song is useful to basically everybody.

Contrary to Mysterious Stranger I think it's not a good trade.

It's trades buffing offensive actions for buffing defense. It's reactionary rather than proactive.

The scariest things enemies can do aren't HP damage or reflex save based (reflex saves again tend to mostly be to reduce HP damage).

Yes, HP is important in that if your reduced below 0 you're out of the fight (*some exceptions apply). But fort saves or will saves are much more terrifying typically. And the defensive buffs you supply do nothing about it. Now, you might say that inspire courage does nothing for it either. And while that's directly true, it does help your martial allies to kill the enemies faster, which does prevent the enemy from using those abilities.

Anyways, my opinion is that buffing offense (up to a point where you're succeeding on 2 or better) ends up with more total value to a party than buffing defense. Certain exceptions apply, such as when you know you're facing an enemy that might really excel at dealing one kind of elemental damage so providing energy resistance can make sense. But usually doesn't require sacrificing the opportunity to do other things because the spell is long enough that it can be cast before combat.


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Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Truth be told there wasn't really any, I tend to make builds that can largely take care of themselves.

This is your problem, While this works ok for PFS, for playing with the same group every week, this makes for a weak character. The term "Jack of all trades, yet Master of none" comes to mind. When you try to be good at everything, you wind up being good at nothing. I keep seeing you ad Power Attack to your character, yet it's not a full BAB build, and you don't have any way of increasing your hits. Weapon Focus would be a far better feat to begin with, but in all reality spending that feat on a non-combat feat is probably way better. Have you looked at "Harmonic Spell"? Bards have plenty of spells, and being able to cast a spell and maintain your Bard Performance for free is huge.

IMO you should pick something that a bard is good at to begin with (Buffing is a good choice) and then try to focus on doing that "thing" even better. As is, your builds are all across the board.


TxSam88 wrote:
Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Truth be told there wasn't really any, I tend to make builds that can largely take care of themselves.

This is your problem, While this works ok for PFS, for playing with the same group every week, this makes for a weak character. The term "Jack of all trades, yet Master of none" comes to mind. When you try to be good at everything, you wind up being good at nothing. I keep seeing you ad Power Attack to your character, yet it's not a full BAB build, and you don't have any way of increasing your hits. Weapon Focus would be a far better feat to begin with, but in all reality spending that feat on a non-combat feat is probably way better. Have you looked at "Harmonic Spell"? Bards have plenty of spells, and being able to cast a spell and maintain your Bard Performance for free is huge.

IMO you should pick something that a bard is good at to begin with (Buffing is a good choice) and then try to focus on doing that "thing" even better. As is, your builds are all across the board.

That's a great point.

I have been writing from the perspective a playing with a consistent group, where your goal is to excel at one specific role within the party.

If you're playing in a setting that doesn't have the same group composition then you do want to make a more diverse character to cover a lot of bases. But in a group, you can focus on one thing and try to excel at it. (Although the thing you focus on should also be supported by the mechanics of the class + archetype you select).

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