shield other with sympathetic wounds


Rules Questions


My cleric is looking to keep our mage alive at all costs. but his last experience using Shield other on her almost got him killed (she was ok though. LOL)

1) so, could my cleric cast Shield other on the mage and then cast sympathetic wounds on our high HP tank? If the mage gets hit for 20 damage, then she takes 10 and the cleric and the tank both take 5 each?

2) Any resistance or DR the mage may have would be resolved before the damage that gets through is divvied up also.

3) AND, does the Cleric get the AC & resistance bonus from the S.W spell?

Am I ready to spring this on my DM as a valid tactic?

Sympathetic wounds:
This spell functions like shield other, except some of your wounds transfer to the targeted creature rather than some of their wounds transferring to you. For example, you could link yourself to a nearby chained slave so that when you are wounded, some of the damage is transferred to the slave. You must have at least as many hit dice as the target, otherwise the spell fails. A creature can only be under the effects of one instance of this spell at a time.

Shield Other:
This spell wards the subject and creates a mystic connection between you and the subject so that some of its wounds are transferred to you. The subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including those dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the warded creature is taken by you. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and death effects, are not affected. If the subject suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with you because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between the subject and you, but damage already split is not reassigned to the subject.

If you and the subject of the spell move out of range of each other, the spell ends.


1) Looks right.

2) Yes only the person actually being attacked by the enemy would get DR/etc. Once they've calculated the damage they take from the attack, the damage is then divided 50% for themself, 25% the Cleric and 25% the Tank. The Cleric and Tank don't get to apply their DR/etc.

3) No. From the looks of it the Tank would get those bonuses, not the Cleric (those effects apply to the target of your spell in both cases, and you are not the target of Share Wounds, just the benefactor).


What alignment is your cleric and his deity? Sympathetic Wounds is an evil spell, so if either you or your deity is good you cannot cast the spell. If your alignment and your deities is neutral on the good/evil axis frequent use of this spell may shift your alignment. If your cleric and his deity are evil, then this tactic should work.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
What alignment is your cleric and his deity? Sympathetic Wounds is an evil spell, so if either you or your deity is good you cannot cast the spell. If your alignment and your deities is neutral on the good/evil axis frequent use of this spell may shift your alignment. If your cleric and his deity are evil, then this tactic should work.

Cleric is LN. and as it is NOT being used in an evil manor (the Tank would be a willing participant unlike the prisoner example in the spell description) I do not think my DM will have issue on that point (the cleric outright avoids 80% of evil spells and rarely preps the few he is willing to consider.


[PFS Legal] Shield OtherFY A2, short description:You take half of subject's damage.
[3.5] Sympathetic WoundsMR A2[Evil]$250, short description: Force half of the damage you take onto another creature.

1) y, 20 hit points get spread among the three spell targets.
2) as mentioned above by MrC. The shared HP damage doesn't get reduced, just split.
3) no.

commentary
A) this isn't anything new. Don't "spring it" on your GM. Make sure he understands how it works.
B) this isn't a good strategy. You are expending resources to simply spread the damage about rather than PREVENT the damage in the first place. I'd ask Why is the Wizard being attacked in the first place? He's not front line material.
Get your wizard two Pearls of Power and have him cast Shield, Mage Armor, Illusion of Calm (now he can recall and recast 2 for the next battle), wand of Obscuring Mist, wand of Vanish. Maybe an Aegis of Recovery.
C) review Items that can save you


When I looked up sympathetic wounds, I noticed that this is a deity specific spell. Only worshipers of Zon-Kuthon are able to cast this spell.

I have to agree with Azothath, that is a really poor tactic. There are a lot better ways to protect the mage. Clerics have decent combat ability, so why not just step up and protect him? Cast a few buff spells on yourself and protect the mage. If for some reason you are not able to protect him yourself look at spells that can protect him. You might also want to look at the spell life pact. It does not distribute as many HP as the two spells but can keep any of the players from dying.

If you cannot think of anything else use summon monster to give him a guardian for the duration of the fight.


Azothath wrote:
B) this isn't a good strategy.

I disagree.

A party-member who's still standing is a party-member who's still fighting. If you can distribute the damage roughly evenly throughout the party you can all stay alive longer. If the whole party ends up on 1HP each then this tsctic obviously did it's job. Now instead of "whole party" we say "Two party members" and instesd of "1HP each" we say "20HP each" and it's still done it's job.

Also if the Cleric is healing by channelling then you want to spread the damage out.

This shouldn't be your ONLY tactic, but it can definitely increase the party's survivability.

Also remember that these are hours/level spells.


Azothath wrote:
A) this isn't anything new. Don't "spring it" on your GM. Make sure he understands how it works.

I wasn't meaning "spring it on him" without warning, thats not cool (and hazardous to a characters health). I tend to check odd/new things out prior to game time like my character was researching ideas. Hate dealing with rules during play that could have been hashed out prior.

Azothath wrote:
B) this isn't a good strategy. You are expending resources to simply spread the damage about rather than PREVENT the damage in the first place. I'd ask Why is the Wizard being attacked in the first place? He's not front line material.

as to the Mage getting damaged, she tosses a lot of spells and the DM tends to play the opponents as having good strategy and will have them focus in on spell casters when possible if they make themselves a threat. So having 8 hours of protection up works well for us (8th level cleric)

Azothath wrote:
Get your wizard two Pearls of Power and have him cast Shield, Mage Armor, Illusion of Calm (now he can recall and recast 2 for the next battle), wand of Obscuring Mist, wand of Vanish. Maybe an Aegis of Recovery.

our campaign, though high in magic, does not have access to purchasing specific magic (trade, yes but it is mostly random)

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Mysterious Stranger wrote:

When I looked up sympathetic wounds, I noticed that this is a deity specific spell. Only worshipers of Zon-Kuthon are able to cast this spell...

...If you cannot think of anything else use summon monster to give him a guardian for the duration of the fight.

My DM has a lot of house rules, one is deity specific spells are typically open to all clerics (assuming they are ok for alignment at deity guidelines). Racial spells still must match. We moved from a 5e campaign to PF1e and my cleric is basically a battlefield healer of Helm. LN. He can fight but knows he is better at helping others with more offensive skills. Sympathetic Wounds used ONLYY on a willing target will be perfectly fine for my character with those house rules.

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MrCharisma wrote:

...Also if the Cleric is healing by channeling then you want to spread the damage out.

This shouldn't be your ONLY tactic, but it can definitely increase the party's survivability.

Also remember that these are hours/level spells.

This is my thought exactly. our battles have been fairly short (under 10 rounds) but VERY intense. My cleric is focused on buffs and defense/healing. channel healing as needed. plug holes and protect in battle. he will only be able to cast non healing spells typically 3-4 rounds in any fight. so ANY time I can have a useful spell with a long duration, it acts like a free round of casting in a fight.


Oh, and thank you to everyone for your thoughts on this.


Like Mr. Charisma mentioned. Spreading out the damage is a good tactic if your heals are AoE, like Channeling. Because one Channel can heal 20 damage spread among 3 or even 2 people, where you need 2 Channels or convert 1 or more spells to cure, which wouldn't be as efficient.

Liberty's Edge

morenu wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
What alignment is your cleric and his deity? Sympathetic Wounds is an evil spell, so if either you or your deity is good you cannot cast the spell. If your alignment and your deities is neutral on the good/evil axis frequent use of this spell may shift your alignment. If your cleric and his deity are evil, then this tactic should work.
Cleric is LN. and as it is NOT being used in an evil manor (the Tank would be a willing participant unlike the prisoner example in the spell description) I do not think my DM will have issue on that point (the cleric outright avoids 80% of evil spells and rarely preps the few he is willing to consider.

The "Evil" tag doesn't care about how you use the spell, it counts regardless of the use. Nonevil use of a evil spell will slow the alignment shift, but it will not prevent it if you regularly use the spell.

You are essentially taking the easy, morally questionable, shortcut instead of staying on the straight and narrow. In the long run, it becomes a habit, and your character will feel justified in taking more and more evil acts, as "the end justifies the means".

- * - * -

The tactic is so-so, especially when sharing the damage with the high hp tank.
He really has so many hp that he can spare what damage is transferred to him on top of the damage he receives doing his job as a tank?
I have trouble envisioning how your cleric received so much damage from Shield other that he was in danger of dying from it.
No form of damage reduction or energy resistance is applied to the transferred damage.

The average wizard with constitution 14 at level 8 has 50 hp.
The average cleric has 59 hp.
If 30-40 points of damage have been transferred to the cleric, it means that the wizard has received 60-80 hp of damage. It is an awfully large quantity of damage for the guy that should be protected and behind a flesh wall.
Giving the cleric the ability to accept more damage (at the expense of the tank) will not help the wizard. Maybe he should devote more resources to avoiding damage.


Diego Rossi wrote:

The "Evil" tag doesn't care about how you use the spell, it counts regardless of the use. Nonevil use of a evil spell will slow the alignment shift, but it will not prevent it if you regularly use the spell.

You are essentially taking the easy, morally questionable, shortcut instead of staying on the straight and narrow. In the long run, it becomes a habit, and your character will feel justified in taking more and more evil acts, as "the end justifies the means".

Yep, He does a lot of across the board good - evil stuff (he sticks Law tightly). My player opinion is the character does a lot of what is viewed as good but can also be unyielding in his judgement and consequences. I balance it to the best that me as a player can and allow the DM to decide if I stray.

Diego Rossi wrote:

I have trouble envisioning how your cleric received so much damage from Shield other that he was in danger of dying from it.

No form of damage reduction or energy resistance is applied to the transferred damage.

From an RP standpoint, It was the first time the cleric used the spell. in a previous fight the PITA mage got out of position and the Shield other saved her from going down. we then chose poorly and went into an unknown combat far over our head. Xorn-like creatures came up out of the ground and flanked the mage (cleric did not see it). the mage was hit and hence so was the cleric. the intelligent xorn leader observed this and proceeded to focus on the mage AND the cleric. the cleric did not know about the earth movement so cast a offensive spell and then was flanked and hit and so was the mage again and the cleric went down. poor choices and crap planning (and bad rolls). anyway, right now the cleric is looking for a way to continue aiding the mage while keeping himself alive to heal the party. I am not looking for the the best combo of spells, just looking to RP an answer to a perceived problem.


Diego Rossi wrote:


The "Evil" tag doesn't care about how you use the spell, it counts regardless of the use. Nonevil use of a evil spell will slow the alignment shift, but it will not prevent it if you regularly use the spell.

You are essentially taking the easy, morally questionable, shortcut instead of staying on the straight and narrow. In the long run, it becomes a habit, and your character will feel justified in taking more and more evil acts, as "the end justifies the means".

- * - * -

The tactic is so-so, especially when sharing the damage with the high hp tank.
He really has so many hp that he can spare what damage is transferred to him on top of the damage he receives doing his job as a tank?
I have trouble envisioning how your cleric received so much damage from Shield other that he was in danger of dying from it.
No form of damage reduction or energy resistance is applied to the transferred damage.

The average wizard with constitution 14 at level 8 has 50 hp.
The average cleric has 59 hp.
If 30-40 points of damage have been transferred to the cleric, it means that the wizard has received 60-80 hp of damage. It is an awfully large quantity of damage for the guy that should be protected and behind a flesh wall.
Giving the cleric the ability to accept more damage (at the expense of the...

This would however result anyone being able to move into good alignment by casting bless water songbird actually because its free and on more spell lists, a lot.

"Ups, my sorceror arse got profane ascended by Nocticula, thanks for the +6 Charisma and +4 Dex btw. I love assisting in Abyssal real estate deals!
I am gonna gonno to my mage tower and cast songbird a lot, while dancing happily to it and consuming great amounts of Demon Cocaine with my newly acquired Demon Cohorts! Because it is on the wizard spell list I can cast it, and because I am a sorceror I give zero expletives about alignment restrictions! Tadaa, After partying long enough and presumably exhausting one wand of restoration to deal with certain aftereffects, I am no longer evil! This will be useful when the Paladin inquisition shows up to ruin my plans!".

Alignment shifts should matter and be consequental, and not something that is easily doable or undoable with magic.

Both the intent and the outcome of the spell should matter, or the alignment system gets even dumber then it already is.

Liberty's Edge

Yes, casting Songbird a lot of times (really a lot if you are trying to balance a being profane ascended by Nocticula) will change your alignment.

Plenty of caveats here:
1) being ascended by a demon god isn't a one-off affair. You are constantly using it, and Nocticula is watching you. Good luck with the Charisma drain and permanent negative levels rolls if you piss her off becoming good.
2) I doubt that while partying out with Demon Cocaine and your Demon Cohorts you will do any good action. Probably you will be doing several unspeakable actions, actually (and I don't mean rough but mutually agreed to forms of sex).
So casting Songbird ten times while partying (it is a 1st level spell, so casting it uses slots) will balance that. And Nocticula will rescind the gift if you become boring. Good demon parties are boring.
3) Your Demon Cohorts will surely stay loyal while you change alignment. No problem at all. It is a promise.

You find the alignment system dumb because you try to game it. Deities take it seriously like they take their code of conduct seriously.
Each deity having a more clearly defined code of conduct is one of the things I like in Pathfinder 2.

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