BeastShape and the threat range of the attacks


Rules Questions


I know you get all the natural attacks of a creature when you BeastShape into it. But what about the threat range of these attacks? Some of them are clearly increased by the Feat "Improved Critical", as shown in the creature stat block. But when you BeastShape, you don't get those feats...do you?


No you don’t gain feats with Beastshape. Only what is listed in the general rules for polymorph and what’s listed in the spell description.


That's what I thought, looks like my player made a mistake.


Note that there are some threat ranges that vary from the normal 20/x2 for natural that also aren't explicitly either increased by the feat or from a specific ability (e.g. bulette savage bite). I would say that even in those cases, you are clearly not meant to get that increase (as you do not gain abilities not listed in Beast Shape, and that should be such an ability). So all your wildshaping/polymorph natural attacks should have a 20/x2 crit code unless you yourself have something that would otherwise adjust this.

Liberty's Edge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Note that there are some threat ranges that vary from the normal 20/x2 for natural that also aren't explicitly either increased by the feat or from a specific ability (e.g. bulette savage bite). I would say that even in those cases, you are clearly not meant to get that increase (as you do not gain abilities not listed in Beast Shape, and that should be such an ability). So all your wildshaping/polymorph natural attacks should have a 20/x2 crit code unless you yourself have something that would otherwise adjust this.

That is correct if the creature has an ability that changes the threat range, but some have a higher threat range without any ability (or feat) to justify it. The statblock simply show a larger threat range. In that instance when shapechanging into that creature you get the improved threat range.


Perhaps by RAW that would be true, but any of those special threat ranges are tantamount to a special ability over and above the norm that simply wasn't listed for space reasons. There is no reason for example to say that the bulette has a 19-20 crit bite instead of simply just listing it as such, especially when the assumption is that every bulette will have this already; and the same would be true for every other monster in the bestiary with special crit stat modifiers. I can see no good justification to draw the line for RAI to when the books arbitrarily call something out that is exceptional either way in specifically the special abilities list over when they what is essentially just filler flavor text for space.

Liberty's Edge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Perhaps by RAW that would be true, but any of those special threat ranges are tantamount to a special ability over and above the norm that simply wasn't listed for space reasons. There is no reason for example to say that the bulette has a 19-20 crit bite instead of simply just listing it as such, especially when the assumption is that every bulette will have this already; and the same would be true for every other monster in the bestiary with special crit stat modifiers. I can see no good justification to draw the line for RAI to when the books arbitrarily call something out that is exceptional either way in specifically the special abilities list over when they what is essentially just filler flavor text for space.

You would "normalize" all monsters? Every medium monster will do 1d6 bite damage and 1d3 claw damage, that damage scaling up or down based on size?

After all, if they do a larger dice of damage it is "because of an unlisted special ability".

"Normalizing" isn't inherently wrong, it is what has been done in other versions of the game: "you can become only one of these creatures" is what the 5th edition and Pathfinder 2 do. Simply it is different from what pathfinder 1 do.


Most of the time, they usually are normal to the size and natural attack type. Exceptions are then usually called out by an ability listing, but even when they aren't a difference of one or two damage steps is way less exceptional than a difference in crit coding that applies to all natural attacks by default than a suggestion for natural attack damage by size and type. There's that extra level of explicit difference with crit changes than damage die changes that shouldn't be overriden simply by the possibility of the writers being lazy/cutting for space with listing an ability that is already fully implied elsewhere.


Are there any monsters with an increased critical range that isn’t tied to a feat listed under their statistics or a special ability that is made available by the Beast Shape, etc., spells?


Assuming you meant to say "isn't made available by the beast shape spells" because any of them with an ability explicitly wouldn't be given to beast shape, etc. since it wouldn't be an ability on the spell's list. The bulette was an example of that.

Searching through the magical beast list (alphabetically), the first one that I found that has an expanded crit range that isn't explicitly accounted for by feat (normally taken or built into the monster: e.g. "Improved Critical (X)B") is the Coven Octopus, which has a 19-20 crit on it's bite, was published in 2019 (well after the editors stopped giving a damn), and does have an ability mentioning their tentacle attacks being special rule breakers which even further indicates that it was likely an oversight to not mention the crit range change.

Liberty's Edge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Searching through the magical beast list (alphabetically), the first one that I found that has an expanded crit range that isn't explicitly accounted for by feat (normally taken or built into the monster: e.g. "Improved Critical (X)B") is the Coven Octopus, which has a 19-20 crit on it's bite, was published in 2019 (well after the editors stopped giving a damn), and does have an ability mentioning their tentacle attacks being special rule breakers which even further indicates that it was likely an oversight to not mention the crit range change.

It is third-party material: Otherverse Games. Author: Chris A. Field.

I have checked some creatures that in previous editions had an increased threat range without a special ability, but it seems that in Pathfinder 1 they have either the Improved critical feat or an explicit special ability.
It is possible there is some corner case where a creature has an improved threat range without an explanation, but, if they exist, they are really rare.


Hmm... seems so, it wasn't marked on the srd which they are usually good about. In either case, such extreme rarity would also imply a simple oversight on calling out the special ability/built in feat and not something that *should* transfer into a beastshape.


There are a couple, but indeed very rare. I've found just six that you can turn into (and get their attack), and we're talking about >2800 creatures in my spreadsheet.

Velociraptor (animal, B4)
Formian Myrmarch (monstrous humanoid, B4)
Giant Stymphalidies (magical beast, AP 26)
Thawn (humanoid, AP 31)
Brush Thylacine (animal, AP 31)
Umdhlebi (plant, AP 41)


2/3rds of them being AP monsters is yet another indicator of oversight, as like every AP book monster has something wrong with it that later gets errata'd.


So we’re talking about an incredibly narrow field of choices—even more so if we’re talking about a non-Druid spellcaster using the actual spell Beast Shape, and thus not able to gain a humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or plant form.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
2/3rds of them being AP monsters is yet another indicator of oversight, as like every AP book monster has something wrong with it that later gets errata'd.

It's not as AP-heavy if you remove the "can turn into" filter, but still I agree on it being oversights, due to the sheer rarity of just 16 out of >2800 creatures beign like that. Two of them (Giant Stymphalides and Stabbing Beast) even got reprints where expanded crit range was simply removed.

Handmaiden Devil (B2, outsider)
Hellcat (B2, outsider)
Jiang-Shi (B3, undead)
Velociraptor (B4, animal)
Formian Myrmarch (B4, monstrous humanoid)
Blightspawn (B5, aberration)
Gowrow (B6, dragon)
Volnagur (Inner Sea Bestiary, magical beast)
Sandpoint Devil (Mystery Monsters Revisited, outsider)
The First Blade (Inner Sea Gods, outsider)
Giant Stymphalides (AP 26, magical beast)
Brush Thylacine (AP 31, animal)
Thawn (AP 31, humanoid)
Umdhlebi (AP 41, plant)
Angustiden (AP 57, animal)
Stabbing Beast (AP 59, outsider)

----

Of course, there is no harm in letting a player get those thread ranges with polymorph effects, as all the forms you can turn into are weak anyway. So it's really an academical issue (unless maybe using 3rd party creatures, but 3PP shouldn't be allowed unrevised anyway).


Hellcat isn't that weak, not to cherry pick, but I've usually only seen people interested in pounce monsters for that specific ability.

Brush Thylacine does have a special indicator for it's threat range, just off the top of my head anyway. Not to cherry pick too much.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Hellcat isn't that weak

Hellcat is an extraplanar outsider, there is no means in the game to turn into one. I said that all the forms you can turn into are weak.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Brush Thylacine does have a special indicator for it's threat range, just off the top of my head anyway. Not to cherry pick too much.

Nah, the Brush Thylacine doesn't... but it has an SQ entry, and the Thylacine stat block on the same page explains what it does. *sigh* I hate it when they do things like that...


Outsiders and aberrations are probably the only one that you can't turn into without a special archetype but the others have things like Undead Anatomy, alter self, Giant Form, plant shape etc. Also forgot that Hellcats aren't magic beasts despite it being right there.

Also also funny digging, the template for becoming a Jiang-Shi has the text that gives their claws 19-20 crit range.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Outsiders and aberrations are probably the only one that you can't turn into without a special archetype but the others have things like Undead Anatomy, alter self, Giant Form, plant shape etc.

Well, Undead Anatomy doesn't grant the target creature's actual natural attacks, and all polymorph spells have size restrictions which makes e.g. the colossal magical beast Volnagur impossible to turn into. Also, I think Jiang-Shi always counts as a templated creature, and thus is impossible to polymorph into.

Good catch on the Jiang-Shi. I only checked the creatures in my spreadsheet, which of course doesn't contain stuff not in the actual stat block. With that and Brush Thylacine removed, we have a whopping 14 creatures (15 if you count the virtual identical version of the Blightspawn from the original module), with two more having gotten functional errata.

You can turn into an aberration via the Abominate grand hex, by the way, but the only aberration on the list is tame.

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