Ways to speed up intelligence in animal companions?


Rules Questions


Hello.

For something i am considering, a PC would ride a wasp into battle. But, in order to do so, it needs to be trained for it, which requires 6 tricks. Our level will be 5.

Bumping the int of the bug to 1 at 4th level, and the 2 bonus tricks, i am left 1 short, until level 6.

Is there another way to increase its intelligence?

Liberty's Edge

Collar of the True Companion, but it is a costly solution.

Another solution is a custom-built item that raises intelligence.


easy peasy, as long as it is a companion that normally have 'share spells' ability. (so for example a cavalier's mount won't do)

take the Unexpected Intellectual archtype for it That replace share spells (and the mindless quality, which happen when it gain any int anyway) with starting at 2 int.
it was made to make insect companion smarter!

(and if at level 4 you bump it's int into 3, not only does it gain understanding a language , it can take any feat it's body can manage and you don't need tricks for it anymore if you can talk to it)


Zza ni, thank you very much for that tip. It is exactly what i needed. :)

Thanks both, and a good day to you.


you are welcomed.

also just incase some1 else have the same problem but he doesn't want to lose (or out right have) the share spell ability for the companion there is also the Precocious archtype (i didn't post it before since it give up stuff that i think are a lot more important).

this one get double the bonus tricks instead of improved evasion (the extra tricks can't be used for hunter tricks) and replaces the normal advancement at level 4\7 with +2 to int and +4 to wis and cha.
(the later makes any 1 or 2 int companion into 3-4 which make the increase in tricks of the first ability redundant and just giving up improved evasion for almost nothing. as it can now understand a language so no real need for tricks)

The Exchange

zza ni wrote:

(and if at level 4 you bump it's int into 3, not only does it gain understanding a language , it can take any feat it's body can manage and you don't need tricks for it anymore if you can talk to it)

This idea, by the way, is a HUGE point of contention. Many groups do play this way and you will see many build guides recommending it, but the rules support is iffy at best. Pathfinder Society (with input from other designers) clarified that it doesn’t matter what your animal’s INT score is it still has “animal intelligence.” And therefore still has to handled, can’t act independently, etc.

As a practical reason for the clarification. “We wrote all these rules about handling and tricks as a deliberate power limiter. We didn’t intend that almost every companion could ignore them just by bumping INT at 4th level.

So. . . check with your GM before planning around this idea.

Liberty's Edge

Belafon wrote:
zza ni wrote:

(and if at level 4 you bump it's int into 3, not only does it gain understanding a language , it can take any feat it's body can manage and you don't need tricks for it anymore if you can talk to it)

This idea, by the way, is a HUGE point of contention. Many groups do play this way and you will see many build guides recommending it, but the rules support is iffy at best. Pathfinder Society (with input from other designers) clarified that it doesn’t matter what your animal’s INT score is it still has “animal intelligence.” And therefore still has to handled, can’t act independently, etc.

As a practical reason for the clarification. “We wrote all these rules about handling and tricks as a deliberate power limiter. We didn’t intend that almost every companion could ignore them just by bumping INT at 4th level.

So. . . check with your GM before planning around this idea.

True.

The tricks are complex maneuvers that require training to execute correctly. I am an intelligent creature (I hope), but if I were to fight an undead by claw and bite I would need training. For a PC his class is the source of the training, for an animal, the tricks are the source of the training.
For most animals, the normal reaction to a potential fight is to try to scare the opponent into fleeing or fleeing themselves. Very few animals fight to the death, as serious wounds can make them unable to survive in the wild.

I would reduce the difficulty of training several tricks when working with an intelligent animal companion, but that isn't RAW.


Hi! Another way is human alternative racial traits "Eye for Talent"

aonprd wrote:
Humans have great intuition for hidden potential. They gain a +2 racial bonus on Sense Motive checks. In addition, when they acquire an animal companion, bonded mount, cohort, or familiar, that creature gains a +2 bonus to one ability score of the character’s choice. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait


Its also possible to do away with the need for tricks and handle animal checks entirely and gain a more powerful wasp mount in the process. if I were going to make a "wasp rider" build I would create it around the Wasp Familiar Feat. If you give your wasp familiar the Mauler archetype it can increase in size to medium at 3rd level making it rideable by small characters or medium sized characters with the Undersize Mount Feat. As a Familiar your Wasp mount wouldn't need tricks or handle animal checks to control it only verbal commands. A good build for this would be to take a halfling with the Caretaker alternate racial trait and give your familiar a +2 to strength. Taking Eldritch Guardian Fighter archetype as your primary class will give your mount any combat feats you possess making up for a familiars lack of feats. A 2 level dip in Shaman with the Mammoth spirit will give your mount a further +2 to strength and a hex which you can use to take a witch hex called Verdant Familiar which gives your familiar Plant Traits (immunity to mind-affecting,polymorph(but not your own polymorph abilities those still work), poison, paralysis, sleep and stun as well as other stuff). If you have a 16 CON and put all your favored class bonuses into HP and take the Mauler's Endurance Feat your familiar will have HP comparable to the Giant Wasp Animal Companion as well. With the Wasp Familiar Feat at 5th level your mount will gain all the statistics of an Imp Familiar (without losing the Mauler archetype) giving it a substantial boost in STR as well as Fast Healing 2, immunity to fire, resist acid/cold 10, DR 5 Good/Silver, Change Shape(boar, giant spider, rat, raven) and a bunch of good Spell-like abilities, etc. The end product will give you a mount with comparable STR and HP as a Giant Wasp Animal Companion and so many other abilities (including a much higher BAB) that an animal companion just cant match. The Giant Wasp AC will beat out the Wasp Familiar in a few areas like natural armor but on the whole I think the Wasp Familiar far outshines it as the best choice for a "Wasp Rider" build.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Belafon wrote:
zza ni wrote:

(and if at level 4 you bump it's int into 3, not only does it gain understanding a language , it can take any feat it's body can manage and you don't need tricks for it anymore if you can talk to it)

This idea, by the way, is a HUGE point of contention. Many groups do play this way and you will see many build guides recommending it, but the rules support is iffy at best. Pathfinder Society (with input from other designers) clarified that it doesn’t matter what your animal’s INT score is it still has “animal intelligence.” And therefore still has to handled, can’t act independently, etc.

As a practical reason for the clarification. “We wrote all these rules about handling and tricks as a deliberate power limiter. We didn’t intend that almost every companion could ignore them just by bumping INT at 4th level.

So. . . check with your GM before planning around this idea.

thats one of the worst faq rulings i have ever seen and goes directly against what is written in the rules about companions

Sentient Companions: a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won’t necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.

paladin mounts are still animals until level mid teens when they become magical beasts. this ruling would have you think an animal with an int of 80 is still just a dumb animal and that is dumb. horrible ruling, seriously the worst faq answer ever.


vhok wrote:
Belafon wrote:
zza ni wrote:

(and if at level 4 you bump it's int into 3, not only does it gain understanding a language , it can take any feat it's body can manage and you don't need tricks for it anymore if you can talk to it)

This idea, by the way, is a HUGE point of contention. Many groups do play this way and you will see many build guides recommending it, but the rules support is iffy at best. Pathfinder Society (with input from other designers) clarified that it doesn’t matter what your animal’s INT score is it still has “animal intelligence.” And therefore still has to handled, can’t act independently, etc.

As a practical reason for the clarification. “We wrote all these rules about handling and tricks as a deliberate power limiter. We didn’t intend that almost every companion could ignore them just by bumping INT at 4th level.

So. . . check with your GM before planning around this idea.

thats one of the worst faq rulings i have ever seen and goes directly against what is written in the rules about companions

Sentient Companions: a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won’t necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.

paladin mounts are still animals until level mid teens when they become magical beasts. this ruling would have you think an animal with an int of 80 is still just a dumb animal and that is dumb. horrible ruling, seriously the worst faq answer ever.

i agree. if having int above 2 would still keep it as an animal in most cases there would be no reason why advanced animals keep their int under 3.

i would abide to this FAQ the moment some1 can point me to an animal link with int higher then 3 without any template.
until then in my games animals (or any other creature who usually have int under 3) that have their int rise above 2 are treated as sentient creatures. see also that the awaken spell set the int of the animal from a minimum of 3 (rolling 3d6 to decide it's new int).


Go back to the justification though for the FAQ though; its supposed to limit the power of someone w/an Animal Companion. Look at the selection for a paladin's Bonded Mount - unless you take a feat or get special dispensation from your GM in a homebrew game, the Bonded Mounts don't start out as combat brutes.

Familiars are even worse. If you want a combat familiar, it's likely you're taking the Mauler archetype AND making build decisions centered around how your familiar can gain some more feats. If you SHARE feats to your familiar, you've got to take feats that the creature can actually use.

Animal Companions are very easily made combat ready right out the gate. You've got WAY more selection than with Bonded Mounts as well. I've had PCs with only mildly-optimized PCs utterly dominate combat with an animal companion and druid spells. One check on that power is forcing the player to consider what the PC is spending Free and potentially Move actions on.

Last but not least, that FAQ is in the PFS area. As Belafon says, your table may vary on using this ruling or not. The point of it is just to put some guardrails around some PCs that build to exploit both the character and their AC in combat.

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:
vhok wrote:
Belafon wrote:
zza ni wrote:

(and if at level 4 you bump it's int into 3, not only does it gain understanding a language , it can take any feat it's body can manage and you don't need tricks for it anymore if you can talk to it)

This idea, by the way, is a HUGE point of contention. Many groups do play this way and you will see many build guides recommending it, but the rules support is iffy at best. Pathfinder Society (with input from other designers) clarified that it doesn’t matter what your animal’s INT score is it still has “animal intelligence.” And therefore still has to handled, can’t act independently, etc.

As a practical reason for the clarification. “We wrote all these rules about handling and tricks as a deliberate power limiter. We didn’t intend that almost every companion could ignore them just by bumping INT at 4th level.

So. . . check with your GM before planning around this idea.

thats one of the worst faq rulings i have ever seen and goes directly against what is written in the rules about companions

Sentient Companions: a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won’t necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.

paladin mounts are still animals until level mid teens when they become magical beasts. this ruling would have you think an animal with an int of 80 is still just a dumb animal and that is dumb. horrible ruling, seriously the worst faq answer ever.

i agree. if having int above 2 would still keep it as an animal in most cases there would be no reason why advanced animals keep their int under 3.

i would abide to this FAQ the moment some1 can point me to an animal link with int higher then 3 without any template.
until then in my games animals (or any other creature who usually have int under 3) that have their int rise above 2 are treated as sentient creatures. see also that the awaken spell set the int of the animal from a minimum of 3 (rolling 3d6 to decide it's new int).

Creatures that resemble animals and have intelligence 3+ normally are magical beasts.

That FAQ allows animal companions to raise their intelligence above the limit.

Bestiary wrote:

An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

Personally, I feel that allowing animal companions sentience and even becoming magical beasts would have been nice. At high levels, most animal companions lose a lot of utility.

Similarly, I feel that reducing the skills points an animal receive because of its intelligence is wrong. I treat them as having mo intelligence modifier to the number of skill points their receive for each HD. But that is an houserule.


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Go back to the justification though for the FAQ though; its supposed to limit the power of someone w/an Animal Companion. Look at the selection for a paladin's Bonded Mount - unless you take a feat or get special dispensation from your GM in a homebrew game, the Bonded Mounts don't start out as combat brutes.

Familiars are even worse. If you want a combat familiar, it's likely you're taking the Mauler archetype AND making build decisions centered around how your familiar can gain some more feats. If you SHARE feats to your familiar, you've got to take feats that the creature can actually use.

Animal Companions are very easily made combat ready right out the gate. You've got WAY more selection than with Bonded Mounts as well. I've had PCs with only mildly-optimized PCs utterly dominate combat with an animal companion and druid spells. One check on that power is forcing the player to consider what the PC is spending Free and potentially Move actions on.

Last but not least, that FAQ is in the PFS area. As Belafon says, your table may vary on using this ruling or not. The point of it is just to put some guardrails around some PCs that build to exploit both the character and their AC in combat.

oh its a PFS faq? i didn't notice. that explains why i never heard of it before. good to know i can ignore it at my table my GM's ignore all PFS house rules

Liberty's Edge

vhok wrote:


oh its a PFS faq? i didn't notice. that explains why i never heard of it before. good to know i can ignore it at my table my GM's ignore all PFS house rules

Without the FAQ you can't raise the intelligence of an animal above 2.

èquote] An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).


Diego Rossi wrote:
vhok wrote:


oh its a PFS faq? i didn't notice. that explains why i never heard of it before. good to know i can ignore it at my table my GM's ignore all PFS house rules

Without the FAQ you can't raise the intelligence of an animal above 2.

èquote] An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

i don't have the core book in front of me (at work atm, using phone), but if what the archive brings on the info animal companion is from the core book, or any other source book (it say at the top of the page that it's from the core book) then without the faq it is still possible to get animal with int 3+ .

see bottom of page. skill list and feat list:

"Animal Skills
Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills: Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), ... Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill."
...
"Animal Feats
Animal companions can select from the following feats:Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, ... Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources."

that mean that if we ignore the pfs FAQ, animal companion can get int of 3+ and still count as animal companions.

The Exchange

A-ha! I finally found the published clarifications on intelligent animals. It’s in the sidebar on page 143 of Ultimate Campaign.

Quote:

Increasing an animal’s Intelligence to 3 or higher means it is smart enough to understand a language. However, unless an awaken spell is used, the animal doesn’t automatically and instantly learn a language, any more than a human child does. The animal must be taught a language, usually over the course of months, giving it the understanding of the meaning of words and sentences beyond its trained responses to commands like “attack” and “heel.”

Even if the animal is taught to understand a language, it probably lacks the anatomy to actually speak (unless awaken is used). For example, dogs, elephants, and even gorillas lack the proper physiology to speak humanoid languages, though they can use their limited “vocabulary” of sounds to articulate concepts, especially if working with a person who learns what the sounds mean.

An intelligent animal is smart enough to use tools, but might lack the ability to manipulate them. A crow could be able to use simple lockpicks, but a dog can’t. Even if the animal is physically capable of using a tool, it might still prefer its own natural body to manufactured items, especially when it comes to weapons. An intelligent gorilla could hold or wield a sword, but its inclination is to make slam attacks. No amount of training (including weapon proficiency feats) is going to make it fully comfortable attacking in any other way.

Even if an animal’s Intelligence increases to 3 or higher, you must still use the Handle Animal skill to direct the animal, as it is a smart animal rather than a low-intelligence person (using awaken is an exception— an awakened animal takes orders like a person). The GM should take the animal’s Intelligence into account when determining its response to commands or its behavior when it doesn’t have specific instructions. For example, an intelligent wolf companion can pick the weakest-looking target if directed to do so, and that same wolf trapped in a burning building might push open a door or window without being told.

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
vhok wrote:


oh its a PFS faq? i didn't notice. that explains why i never heard of it before. good to know i can ignore it at my table my GM's ignore all PFS house rules

Without the FAQ you can't raise the intelligence of an animal above 2.

Quote:

An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

i don't have the core book in front of me (at work atm, using phone), but if what the archive brings on the info animal companion is from the core book, or any other source book (it say at the top of the page that it's from the core book) then without the faq it is still possible to get animal with int 3+ .

see bottom of page. skill list and feat list:

"Animal Skills
Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills: Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), ... Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill."
...
"Animal Feats
Animal companions can select from the following feats:Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, ... Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources."

that mean that if we ignore the pfs FAQ, animal companion can get int of 3+ and still count as animal companions.

All true, but at the same time meaningless for the RAW. You can raise an animal's intelligence by 2, 4, or 6 points with a Headband of Vast Intelligence and variants, so you need some rules for that. The animal can even get ranks in linguistics and one or more languages from the headband.

But RAW, as soon as the unmodified stat is 3+, it isn't an animal anymore and it becomes ineligible as an animal companion.

Stupid? Sure. But strict RAW rarely is the brightest way to play Pathfinder.


Doesn't "specific" trump "general" in the RAW? So, while an Animal type creature can't be above a 2 Int and be considered an Animal type, an Animal Companion specifically can be above the 2 Int threshold but still continue to serve as an Animal Companion, therefore it's creature type doesn't change making it ineligible. That's what I understood anyway.

Also per UC quoted by Belafon, an "animal's intelligence increases to 3 or higher" seems to indicate again that the sky's the limit on Int scores for Animals. Regardless, the sidebar quoted also reinforces the PFS ruling that, unless your AC is Awakened (as per the Awaken spell), you still need to track and use their Tricks to command them.

Liberty's Edge

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Doesn't "specific" trump "general" in the RAW? So, while an Animal type creature can't be above a 2 Int and be considered an Animal type, an Animal Companion specifically can be above the 2 Int threshold but still continue to serve as an Animal Companion, therefore it's creature type doesn't change making it ineligible. That's what I understood anyway.

Also per UC quoted by Belafon, an "animal's intelligence increases to 3 or higher" seems to indicate again that the sky's the limit on Int scores for Animals. Regardless, the sidebar quoted also reinforces the PFS ruling that, unless your AC is Awakened (as per the Awaken spell), you still need to track and use their Tricks to command them.

Quote:
Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill.

Where does it say that the actual intelligence of an AC can be above 2 and it still stays an animal? In Pathfinder there are ways to raise a creature's intelligence without changing the actual score, like the aforementioned headband, Ioun stones, and so on.

That phrase implies something, but specific rules trump generic rules doesn't work with "it implies", as what is implied is an opinion, not a rule.

The +2 to int headband will give the AC 1 skill point/HD in a specific skill. Raising an AC real intelligence from 2 to 4 will not give it skill points. There are plenty of these problems in the rules, as the game was made with a lot of moving parts and relatively low care in checking that those moving parts fit together correctly when you assemble them in a different way.

AC being implied to be able to have an intelligence above 3 in the CRB and not being able to have an intelligence of 3+ and count as an animal in the Bestiary is another of those problems.

Edit:
Just to be clear, I am playing Asmodeus advocate.


Diego Rossi wrote:
zza ni wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
vhok wrote:


oh its a PFS faq? i didn't notice. that explains why i never heard of it before. good to know i can ignore it at my table my GM's ignore all PFS house rules

Without the FAQ you can't raise the intelligence of an animal above 2.

Quote:

An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

i don't have the core book in front of me (at work atm, using phone), but if what the archive brings on the info animal companion is from the core book, or any other source book (it say at the top of the page that it's from the core book) then without the faq it is still possible to get animal with int 3+ .

see bottom of page. skill list and feat list:

"Animal Skills
Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills: Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), ... Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill."
...
"Animal Feats
Animal companions can select from the following feats:Acrobatic, Agile Maneuvers, ... Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources."

that mean that if we ignore the pfs FAQ, animal companion can get int of 3+ and still count as animal companions.

All true, but at the same time meaningless for the RAW. You can raise an animal's intelligence by 2, 4, or 6 points with a Headband of Vast Intelligence and variants, so you need some rules for that. The animal can even get ranks in linguistics and one or more languages from the headband.

But RAW, as soon as the unmodified stat is 3+, it isn't an animal anymore and it becomes ineligible as an animal companion.

Stupid? Sure....

if strict RAW would disallow an AC from being an AC once it's int reach 3+ then why is there a rule section explaining what feats and skills it can take once it happen?

if it stops being an AC it should say right there and then - "it also stop being an AC" like the awaken spell does.
the fact it's in the AC rules and explain that once it has 3+ int it can pick what ever skill it likes and any feat it's body can perform mean it's still an AC.

you talk about using a magical item to increase it's int but the most common way is with the ability increase points it gets from leveling (after all not every high level character can or will buy\make an int rising item for the AC).
But then if it stops being an AC then most likely it should also LOSE a lot of skills and feats as any AC that stops being an AC goes back to the states before the table is used.

so no. by strict raw it seem AC stay an AC even with higher int.


The rules pertaining to animal companions in the core rule book do not state that ability points gained from character advancement CANNOT be put into INT. If their intent was for ACs to not be able to do do this then this is a pretty huge oversight on their part. They have had multiple printings and erratas to correct this and it has not been done. There was a perfect opportunity to address this with the PFS FAQ mentioned earlier. This was not done. There have been multiple blog threads where the Devs have posted in which this issue has been discussed. To my knowledge no Dev has stated that points from character advancement cannot be put into INT on ACs. The only thing that even implies that ACs can’t put points into INT is the general rule on animal traits. ACs are not normal animals to begin with since their stats are different and they have the capacity to advance by HD progression. ACs by nature are a specific exemption to the general rules on animals. I see no reason to prevent ACs from putting points into INT for these reasons.


It is specifically mentioned that you can/should put some points into AC intelligence, specifically so you can unlock feats not explicitly listed as only being available AC's with Int of less than 3. Also, even if you couldn't give them inherent increases, you could just give them a headband of vast intelligence.

The Exchange

What's missing from the whole "Animals can't have an Int better than 2 so how could an animal companion have an Int of 3 or more and still be a dumb animal?" discussion is (in addition to common sense) the introductory text from the creature types section of the Bestiary.

Bestiary 1 page 306 wrote:
A creature cannot violate the rules of its subtype without a special ability or quality to explain the difference—templates can often change a creature’s type drastically.

"Being an animal companion" is the special quality that means the animal companion violates all kinds of rules for its type. Such as total skill ranks, skills that can have ranks, all the bonuses that companions get that normal animals don't, and being able to have an Int higher than 2.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Ways to speed up intelligence in animal companions? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.