What are some classes and build combinations that can play against type better than one might expect?
Things like low strength barbarians, an introverted bard, or an unintelligent inventor.
Well, it's highly dependent on what you call "type". Because a stupid Alchemist works, but is the Alchemist really defined by it's Intelligence? On the other hand, a low Intelligence Wizard just doesn't work.
But among the funniest combinations, I like the Ranged Barbarian. You still need quite some Strength to get the best out of it, but the double Trident Barbarian does nearly the damage of a Greatsword Barbarian... at range.
I also love the Goblin Keg Thrower: Goblin Giant Barbarian with Raging Thrower and Alchemist Dedication to throw oversized Bombs at the enemy. Not incredible... until it hits! But definitely not an optimized build.
The most obvious one is buff/heal casters. A low WIS Cleric can be a healbot just fine. For whatever that is worth.
I don't know that it would be agaisnt type per say, but I love the idea of playing a ruffian rogue.
Like playing a gruff muscular half orc who smashes down with a thundermace and grapples, shoves and trip people, before turning about and demoralising half the field using you're next.
Then someone in the party is like ''hey you, you're a rogue right, how about opening up this door''
And the ruffian just goes '' I don't know s$++ about locks,I'm all about smashing, just like I smashed with your mom last night!!''
Proceeds to high five the fighter.
The most obvious one is buff/heal casters. A low WIS Cleric can be a healbot just fine. For whatever that is worth.
Exactly.
Bard too, w/ Magic Missile, Soothe, and buffs. Arguably this approach could apply to all the casters & traditions as long as one avoids offense (except for some spells like Magic Missile, Wall of Fire, etc.) and counteracting (which if you're going to say your PC's a healer you should likely provide). As long as there's some way to contribute meaningfully in a variety of combat situations, or at least in the bad situations.The thing is why. Where are those unused stats going that makes the distribution worth doing?
So your Wizard isn't smart...so what are they? Charismatic? Why not both? Why choose Wizard? For the mechanical puzzle of maintaining relevance playing against the grain? (Which admittedly I've done in PF1, but suits PF2 less well.)
Ones I've built that seem viable:
-Dwarf Bards, 10 Cha.
Points instead going to Int to max out Enigma Muse/Bardic Lore, while keeping save stats high too. OR
Points going to martial stats for melee/saves.
-Cleric Warpriest, 14 Wis
Of Nethys for Magic Missile + usual healing/buffing
Points used to tank up and 16 Charisma for more healing, a party face, & adequate innate Cantrip(s)
-Dwarf Summoner, 10 Cha
Points used to tank up, spells used for healing OR
Points focused on Con/Int, the ones that most contribute when Melded.
More viable ideas
-Dumb Investigator
Devise a Strategem doesn't need Int, and if using a larger weapon, you can't use Int w/ it. And you're getting enough skills anyway.
I could see it with a deadly/fatal weapon, though even with a d12 weapon it's sweet to know when you'll crit, or should attack somebody else. Those stat point can go into survivability.
(Not sure why one would want to do this though, not with Ranger out there for a big-weapon martial w/ skills!)
-Dumb Magus
Hurts the Cantrip damage, but one could go w/ innate ones, or take the loss because you'll be that much stronger/tougher for it.
-Brute Swashbuckler
Dislike spending actions regaining Panache, but want a Charmed Life, One for All, higher speed, and all the other toys? Grab a greatsword and go to town. (though should still skirmish rather than tank)
Experimental
-Weak Champion
Does fighting through mount proxy. Use Reaction to protect it.
Points in Charisma for innate Cantrips.
Great advice, Castilliano!
I just might give that trident barbarian a try, SuperBidi.
Thank you all. These are exactly the kinds of things I was hoping for.
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I play a Starlit Span magus with monk dedication who does a lot of melee flurrying. Most of the hybrid studies can be twisted a bit; Laughing Shadow doesn't actually need to use roguey weapons, a big sword and strength will work too, as long as it's one-handed. While you could do the Inexorable Iron one with an elven curve blade and go dexey.
And dumb magus isn't actually so problematic. You could load up on innate cantrips and boost charisma instead of intelligence. Use your spell slots for buffs like haste and stoneskin instead of attacks. Or multiclass into cleric and play an "alternative war priest" using mostly divine cantrips for spellstrike. It can work, because unlike other casters your to-hit stat isn't actually your casting stat.
And dumb magus isn't actually so problematic. ... multiclass into cleric and play an "alternative war priest" using mostly divine cantrips for spellstrike.
Now I am sitting here chuckling at the idea of using Sigil with Spellstrike.
Obviously the better choices would be Divine Lance by default or Daze, Chill Touch, and Haunting Hymn with expansive spellstrike.
A bit less against type as some of the other things mentioned, but I had a good bit of fun with a two-handed weapon ranger. Precision Edge, Polearm, Gravity Weapon, Improved Knockdown and Brutal Finish (via Mauler), Disrupt Prey... Also Double Prey to get even more use out of Disrupt Prey.
And it's been a while since I posted it here, but a Melee Toxicologist is also a fun idea. Get Quick Draw via Duelist, Rogue or Ranger, wield your main weapon in one hand and use Doubling Rings to apply runes to a good number of pre-poisoned daggers on the fly. Basically Draw, Strike, Drop, Repeat.
The strongbuckler. Take Gymnast, get into Sentinel for better armor.
Your low levels are problematic, because agile weapons without finesse are rare and the finesse trait seems to be basically free if it's paired with agile when it comes to weapon design. There are only a couple finishers that require an agile or finesse weapon, but unfortunately your free one is one of them.
At level 10 though you can have some fun with a reach weapon and derring-do, pretty much forgoing panache cycling in favor of sitting on it to reroll your athletics checks and move faster.
You can lean into it even more by grabbing Giant's Stature at 12 through a barbarian MC to give yourself a 15 foot circle of tripping with a guisarme.
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The most obvious one is buff/heal casters. A low WIS Cleric can be a healbot just fine. For whatever that is worth.
If you buff STR instead of WIS you can go into Wrestler and do some pretty respectable CC for your warpriest's third action. Since you're getting skill scaling it gets around the proficiency problems of trying to Strike with a warpriest.
More viable ideas
-Dumb Investigator
Devise a Strategem doesn't need Int, and if using a larger weapon, you can't use Int w/ it. And you're getting enough skills anyway.
I could see it with a deadly/fatal weapon, though even with a d12 weapon it's sweet to know when you'll crit, or should attack somebody else. Those stat point can go into survivability.
(Not sure why one would want to do this though, not with Ranger out there for a big-weapon martial w/ skills!)
Just to answer your last question: Because you want to play an Interrogation Investigator who's actually good at interrogating. And a Ranger has a very different feel, and 2-handed is not much supported by the Ranger class either.
As Finesse Investigators are plain bad, you can go Strength-based (and grab Sentinel) and it works better. But it disincentivize increasing Intelligence, which doesn't mean you have to dump it but you can safely do so.
I'm not sure it can be considered "playing against type" as it's the basic melee Investigator build in my opinion.
Actually, I feel that the issue the Finesse Investigator has is shared with all the Finesse builds but Thief Rogue. In my opinion, Finesse is a weak trait in PF2. Dexterity to damage should be available to everyone with Finesse weapons.
If you're going for "goes against type (flavor)" rather than "goes against type (crunch)"...
Duskwalker summoner (Undead Eidolon) Undead Master
"Just because you're my dad doesn't mean you get to tellme what to do"
Scoundrel Rogue of Nethys. Follows the edict to "seek out magical power and use it" by manipulating, grifting, and otherwise exploiting spellcasters. Has no actual magical ability of their own.
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One of my favorite characters is my Elven Dragon Barbarian with MC Champion (Paladin) and Crystal Keeper. Its not a low-str barb, but its evolved into a highly flexible non-standard build.
Started out by trying to see how to make a two-weapon fighter barbarian. Went with pick and battle ax. Needed to avoid agile since they don't work well with rage. Battleax with sweep gets a bit of a weaker agile, so it still kinda helps. Realized it was getting close to tooth & claw -> made the choice for dragon instinct. From their I wanted to shore up the normal 'barbarian is useless in non-combat encounters' if you're not intimidating/breaking things, so tried to figure out a skill story which led to pumping int and cha. Dex was lagging as a result, so looked for armor solutions (pre Sentinel publication) so Champion dedication. Paladin's reaction combos with rage nicely. Lay on hands works with rage, nice. Suddenly I have a bit of a jack of all-trades -- good to hit/consistent damage, if not the huge numbers you expect from a barbarian, good AC, some party defense, small of in-combat healing, large amount of out-of combat healing. Good knowledge and social skills. The crystal keeper dedication is mainly aiming to eventually give him a version of blade ally/daily customization rune -- plus just leaning into his deep love of the history of the elves.
He's a diplomat outside of combat, and fiercely protective of his allies inside. Mobile enough to charge enemy casters/ranged if needed, or stay close to provide flanks/champion reactions. Probably plays a bit more like a normal champion than a barbarian.
Might not be as off-type as other suggestions in stats, but in flavor at the table I know he's surprised a ton of players and GMs.
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When I built my 08 Cha Champion, I figured I was building against type, but he's now Level 10 and I've encountered plenty of other similar Champions since.
Difference is mine has an 18 Wis, and the Cleric Archetype, and I haven't encountered anyone else like that yet. Expert Divine proficiency 3 levels early has been nice.
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Ones I've built that seem viable:
-Dwarf Bards, 10 Cha.
Points instead going to Int to max out Enigma Muse/Bardic Lore, while keeping save stats high too. OR
Points going to martial stats for melee/saves.
Warrior muse would also be pretty much perfect for this, especially if you go all in on the Courageous Advance feat tree. Your biggest issue would probably be hitting the Performance checks if you cast lingering composition or inspire heroics, but there's no cost if you fail those anyway.
Actually, I feel that the issue the Finesse Investigator has is shared with all the Finesse builds but Thief Rogue. In my opinion, Finesse is a weak trait in PF2. Dexterity to damage should be available to everyone with Finesse weapons.
I view it as enabling trait. It is not a net positive. It adds no net value. You either require it for your build or it irrelevant. (Excluding the edge case of Incorporeal creatures at table where the rules are strict)
Whereas something like Agile is a gain as it reduces MAP.
Actually, I feel that the issue the Finesse Investigator has is shared with all the Finesse builds but Thief Rogue. In my opinion, Finesse is a weak trait in PF2. Dexterity to damage should be available to everyone with Finesse weapons.I view it as enabling trait. It is not a net positive. It adds no net value. You either require it for your build or it irrelevant. (Excluding the edge case of Incorporeal creatures at table where the rules are strict)
Whereas something like Agile is a gain as it reduces MAP.
Plus there are the defensive benefits of a high Dex, and some different/better utility too. That bonus to Reflex represents a lot of damage avoided, plus Dex classes with poor armor can max out AC from level 1. And the whole dynamic around Sneak Attack & other damage boosters to Finesse & Agile weapons is tied to Dex seldom getting added to damage (and the weapons having a smaller die, and Agile getting better MAP, etc.).
Experimental
-Weak Champion
Does fighting through mount proxy. Use Reaction to protect it.
Points in Charisma for innate Cantrips.
That is my daughter's build in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign. I have access only to Tikti's current 14th-level stats, which are Str 16, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, and Cha 14, so I assume she started with Str 12. I remember that her damage was pitiful. She also uses light armor due to her high Dexterity. The character started with Dex 18 because the entire party needed to be Stealthy. She is also a tailed goblin with Detective background and follows Grandmother Spider.
Her primary means of damage is her velociraptor animal companion Liklik, obtained through Steed Ally with GM permission. She also wields a shortsword. Sometimes Tikti goes on the offense, commanding Liklik to attack and using Liberating Step to protect it. Sometimes Tikti goes on defense, letting Liklik lag behind and protecting her teammates with Liberating Step. She protects herself with a sturdy steel shield. Liklik is also good at chasing down foes who attempt to flee, because two Strides at Speed 50 is faster than three Strides at Speed 25.
Her cantrip from Diety's Domain is Sudden Shift, which does not need a Charisma bonus. Neither does Lay on Hands. Her Charisma is for Deception, Diplomacy, and Intimidation. Grandmother Spider approves of lying in good cause.
The build works.
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The strongbuckler. Take Gymnast, get into Sentinel for better armor.
Your low levels are problematic, because agile weapons without finesse are rare and the finesse trait seems to be basically free if it's paired with agile when it comes to weapon design. There are only a couple finishers that require an agile or finesse weapon, but unfortunately your free one is one of them.
Finesse is an optional ability. It allows but does not require you to use Dexterity to attack with. You can use Strength for attack rolls with a Rapier.
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Plus there are the defensive benefits of a high Dex, and some different/better utility too. That bonus to Reflex represents a lot of damage avoided, plus Dex classes with poor armor can max out AC from level 1. And the whole dynamic around Sneak Attack & other damage boosters to Finesse & Agile weapons is tied to Dex seldom getting added to damage (and the weapons having a smaller die, and Agile getting better MAP, etc.).Actually, I feel that the issue the Finesse Investigator has is shared with all the Finesse builds but Thief Rogue. In my opinion, Finesse is a weak trait in PF2. Dexterity to damage should be available to everyone with Finesse weapons.I view it as enabling trait. It is not a net positive. It adds no net value. You either require it for your build or it irrelevant. (Excluding the edge case of Incorporeal creatures at table where the rules are strict)
Whereas something like Agile is a gain as it reduces MAP.
An important benefit from high DEX IMO is using Stealth for Initiative when your Perception is not that good.
Finesse is an optional ability. It allows but does not require you to use Dexterity to attack with. You can use Strength for attack rolls with a Rapier.The strongbuckler. Take Gymnast, get into Sentinel for better armor.
Your low levels are problematic, because agile weapons without finesse are rare and the finesse trait seems to be basically free if it's paired with agile when it comes to weapon design. There are only a couple finishers that require an agile or finesse weapon, but unfortunately your free one is one of them.
Correct, but in terms of a weapon's trait budget it's effectively a wasted slot for a strength character, so I was looking for non-finesse agile weapons to see if they would be better (turns out not really, agile+finesse doesn't seem to be valued any higher than agile by itself).
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Correct, but in terms of a weapon's trait budget it's effectively a wasted slot for a strength character, so I was looking for non-finesse agile weapons to see if they would be better (turns out not really, agile+finesse doesn't seem to be valued any higher than agile by itself).Finesse is an optional ability. It allows but does not require you to use Dexterity to attack with. You can use Strength for attack rolls with a Rapier.The strongbuckler. Take Gymnast, get into Sentinel for better armor.
Your low levels are problematic, because agile weapons without finesse are rare and the finesse trait seems to be basically free if it's paired with agile when it comes to weapon design. There are only a couple finishers that require an agile or finesse weapon, but unfortunately your free one is one of them.
You can get the best of both worlds: A Bastard Swords for normal Strikes (with Dual-Handed Assault ideally), and an Agile or Finesse Unarmed attack for Finishers. Orc's Tusks are excellent for that, nearly as good as a Rapier without limiting your normal Strikes to a d6.
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How are you using a weapon and an unarmed strike together? The doubling rings and blazons of shared power only work for weapons so you'd have to rune them separately right?
Yes, you need to rune them separately. The cost is higher, but nothing impossible. Of course, it's easier with ABP.
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Bombs are a thrown weapon that don't use strength at all.
A Rage Prophet type character that was a Barbarian MC'd Flame Oracle with access to bombs could be a lot of fun (either picking up a second Archetype or preferably just traveling with an alchemist willing to share.)
Having a str of 14 is a good idea for using medium armor anyway, but you never really need to push past that. You will need a 14 Cha for the Oracle dedication, so picking up intimidation feats will fit well with this character too.
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How about a Gnome Barbarian with the Dual Weapon Warrior archetype who dual-wields flickmaces?