So you won the fight, BUT...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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...did you save the family in the burning farm house?

...you incinerated the priceless manuscript with your fireball!

I have been thinking forward to the next campaign that I run. I want things to matter. I know that building a compelling home brew story, or even running a bought adventure path is the first step. But I would like to see other people's ideas of how to take the small steps. How to make combat about more than just rocket tag, stat blocs and go-to feat combos.

So let see your ideas. They don't even have to be original. Take from books, shows, movies or even real life if you want. It goes without saying that this could be a good exercise and/or tool for everyone. And also, it's a subject that is very rules-agnostic.

So, just complete the sentence "So you won the fight, but..." with your own takes. I look forward to reading them!


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I'm a fan of a countdown with consequences attached to it. Given the calculated approach folks often have toward combat situations, environmental or external factors can be a great way of force player characters out of their element. Classic tropes like the descending spiked ceiling or the bad guys racing with the kidnapped princess in tow to get to their getaway teleportation circle/airship/whatever can add tension and pressure. Making the PC's battle a smaller part of a larger conflict whose outcome could be negative if they don't act fast enough to move to other objectives also works well, IMHO. A raid in a castle is one thing; a foray launched to rescue a cut-off forlorn hope while the besieged enemy are also launching their own forays and deploying siege defenses is something else altogether.


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So you won the fight, but did you capture/kill all the enemies?

When enemies retreat or get away, and they should, they should return later... stronger... and more aware of what the party is capable of. They might just bring adequate backup, or set a well-laid trap. If enough of these survivors band together, you kind of have an anti-party that is out for revenge against the party.

So you won the fight, but did you show mercy?

Showing mercy is important, and a hard lesson for murderhobos to learn. It is a delicate balancing act between thoroughly eradicating all enemies, and showing mercy when mercy is warranted. Reward the characters for not murderhobo'ing everything they see. Maybe that [insert whatever here] is actually a plot hook? A mischieveous Fey stealing shiny things may not warrant your full wrath, and an ounce of understanding may lead to grand adventure, and LOOT! Loot otherwise never found if you just murder absolutely everything for every infraction. Make helping the trapped Lion instead of viewing it as easy XP prove beneficial...

So you won the fight, but did everyone have fun?

Combat can take forever, and time is limited for most of us. Do things to make turns bog down less... have groups of enemies act on the same Initiative, start by having some of the archers and TWF attacks/damages pre-rolled in order, and see if players are willing to hand off control of their summons to other players if they are going to play characters with lots of summons/pets/undead. Also, remember, the GM is supposed to have fun, too.


One of my players is a bit too fond of Conflagration (beefed up Firestorm from 2e) and fires it off without thinking about the consequences, and as such has burned a bunch of stuff that shouldn't be burned, like a couple of libraries.


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Some ideas from PF2's GameMastery Guide:

Knowledge is endangered.
Opponents are supposed to survive.
Opponents are supposed to be misled instead of beaten.
Bystanders are supposed to be impressed / convinced.
PCs are supposed to not be noticed.

It's possible to fail at any of these, while still "winning" the fight.


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… but were you fighting the right people? Yes, you defeated the bandits trivially easily, but why did this half-starved and ill equipped group turn to banditry? Maybe you should be looking at the landowner who turned the peasants out of their cottages.

… but now you’ve created a power vacuum in this area. Who is going to move in?

… but they held you up long enough for their allies to get away with the McGuffin.

..but now a lot of bystanders are backing away nervously because you appear to be a bunch of crazed killers who took the extreme approach to a financial dispute. Let’s hope your diplomat is really good at talking your way out of this one.

… but now you have a starstruck teenager who watched the fight following your party wanting to join you and she isn’t going to last six seconds in the sort of fights you get into.

… but they surrendered. What do you do with defeated enemies out in the middle of nowhere.

… but now every other goblin in the swamp hates you, even the children, and you are going to face guerilla attacks every inch of the way home. Don’t split up or go to sleep.


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So you won the fight, but did you learn anything?

Players can kind of get locked into repeating the same sequence every encounter... on one hand, if it works, use it... but if players are not making Knowledge checks to identify what it is they are fighting, then they never actually learn anything about the enemy. Using a variety of enemies, and different tactics for those enemies, will really throw a spanner in the works for your one trick pony players. Sometimes they get lucky, but eventually they need to actually know the actual weaknesses of things. Trolls and Ghosts, enemies that can be beaten but come back without specific Knowledge...


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So, you won the fight BUT ... now you are part of the backstory for a future adventurer, as the BBEG.


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Ghostwheel wrote:
...did you save the family in the burning farm house?

I read this and I immediately thought of a picture on page 92 of the AD&D DMG. It shows a party of adventurers fighting a BBEG and a gorgon. In the back of the picture is a guy not in the fight, but instead freeing a hostage chained to the wall.

(Incidentally, the context for this picture is given on page 48 of the PHB, and apparently each adventurer in the picture is supposed to be a different alignment.)

The guy in the back always resonated with me. The hostage may have been a primary reason for this encounter, and I loved that this guy is working with the party but keeping his own set of priorities in mind. Sure, the bad guy and his pet metal bull needs to be addressed, but how complete would the victory be if this innocent person died because they were an afterthought? Unless I'm deliberately playing an a-hole character, this mentality has always stuck with me. A party has multiple people; there's no need that multiple goals can't be addressed.


Ghostwheel wrote:
I want things to matter. I know that building a compelling home brew story, or even running a bought adventure path is the first step. But I would like to see other people's ideas of how to take the small steps. How to make combat about more than just rocket tag, stat blocs and go-to feat combos.

Before you build a compelling narrative, get player buy-in. The first step is to know that if you deliver your NPC's heart wrenching backstory, your players will care.

Secondly, tell them your game will involve morals and ethics, and not just for mechanical benefit. Players should want to save innocents because it's the right thing to do, not b/c it gives them a 10% cost of living decrease or a +2 Circumstance bonus when dealing w/those NPCs.

The way the mechanics of this game are written, it is easy for PCs to be murderhobos; there are no RAW consequences for immoral behavior and if you slay your enemies (drop them below 0 HP then coup de grace all unconscious/dying foes), you are rewarded by personal gear loot, optional Trophy rules and the fact that these particular enemies can't come back after you.

So, just by RAW, being a life-affirming, villain-reforming hero is hard. If a villain is holding an NPC with a crossbow to the head, a Coup De Grace is a full-round action which technically gives the PCs the opportunity to interrupt it by slaying said villain.

To circumvent RAW completely, you need to consider what the PCs would lose or their enemies would gain. The PCs might not pick up vital info if they don't take prisoners and interrogate them; slaying their enemies mercilessly might be the catalyst for an even greater evil to rise.

One thing to consider: make villains that aren't really villains. At low levels, consider a mob of angry townsfolk misled to believe the PCs are their enemies; give the party monsters that are feral and only attacking out of hunger or fear; at upper levels, individual NPCs compelled through blackmail or enchantment spells.

There again... remember the RAW. Technically, many monster types survive past 0 HP. If a villain is mind controlled, rather than trying to dramatically encourage the villain to fight to assert their own will, its easy just to gang up, deal a truckload of damage and drop them below 0 HP, then tie up said foe before casting healing spells on them.

Last, but certainly not least... spells. If you have clever players and they know that fights won't always be about slaying their enemies, there are a TON of ways that PCs can use spells to foil your plans. A simple Floating Disk spell and proper positioning can potentially stop a fall, ferry a PC over difficult terrain, and so on. Try to consider what spells and magic items your PCs can throw out there when planning consequential fights.


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Andostre wrote:
Ghostwheel wrote:
...did you save the family in the burning farm house?
I read this and I immediately thought of a picture on page 92 of the AD&D DMG. It shows a party of adventurers fighting a BBEG and a gorgon. In the back of the picture is a guy not in the fight, but instead freeing a hostage chained to the wall.

Well, how else is the Rogue supposed to contribute to combat?!

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