On taking over Grapples

[Gil-Gandel]

So here I am, Wild Shaped into a tiger and some monster or other has just grappled me. As a rule you can make a Grapple check as a standard action to become the controlling grappler (the one who can then drop the grapple as a free action, gets +5 to Maintain the grapple, and can upgrade it to a Pin). However, the grappled tiger can claw and bite normally, and all of those natural attacks have Grab, meaning a free grapple attempt if they hit.

So...

Can you take over the grapple this way? Anything to say for certain Yes or No?

(This exact situation came up last weekend but I just got on with ripping the creature grappling me a new exit passageway. I was pretty sure it was about to swallow me whole and I was more than willing for it to do so. But some other time it might matter.)

[zza ni]

rule as written probably no, since the grab allow to start a grapple and you are already in one.

i for one would allow it, it happen all the time, i grab Nez (my cat) by one part of her body, she turns around, bite and\or claw me and won't let go...

(i would still give the one controlling the grapple when you grabbed the +5 to be the dominant grappler)

[Gil-Gandel]

> (i would still give the one controlling the grapple when you grabbed the +5 to be the dominant grappler)

But the grapple check isn't an opposed die roll.

I think your first sentence is probably the argument I was looking for. The ability to *start* a grapple isn't the same as "a free grapple attempt for any purpose you like". Grab's already powerful enough without it giving you a free attempt to become the dominant grappler while you're full-attacking. And being grappled isn't necessarily a serious problem for someone with lots of natural attacks.

One thing I'd forgotten is that Grab doesn't work on creatures larger than you. Damn, I need Powerful Shapes more than I thought I did.

[zza ni]

ohh i give that +5 to grapple checks also for the dominant grappler cmd against that grapple.

it make littlie sense to me that you get better at garbing some1 once you hold them, but not at 'not letting them get out of it'.
i think 'grabbing on to some1' and 'not letting him go easily' should benefit from the same effects -something that effect one should automatically effect the other.

[Gil-Gandel]

Well, but you are better at "not letting them get out of it" once you have Grappled them. Before you Grappled, they didn't have to do anything to not be Grappled, and now they have to make a roll.

A lot of grappling monsters are hard enough to escape anyway, without giving them a +5 to CMD for being the dominating grappler.