Cloak of Resistance


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Hi everyone,

One aspect I find annoying in PF2 is the need to increase save stats every five levels. It really limits the builds you can make. On top of it, all the save stats are increasing other important values, be it AC, hit points or Perception, making them even more important to increase.

I think it'd be really nice to see a comeback of a save item (that I'll call Cloak of Resistance as it was quite the item back in PF1) allowing you to dump a save stat without being too penalized. An item working like Bullwark, replacing your attribute modifier by a modifier dependent on the grade of the item. With, for example, a +1 bonus at level 7, +2 bonus at level 12 and +3 bonus at level 17. It would be worse than increasing the stat every 5 levels so it won't change the way optimized builds are being made, but it would still prevent a high level character to have a ridiculous save ending up crippled every time they have to roll it.

What do you think about it?


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I think your percieved "need" to increase the save stats is all in your mind. :)

And more than that, I have yet to find a build that breaks just because I need more than one "non-save" ability score.


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Blave wrote:
I think your percieved "need" to increase the save stats is all in your mind. :)

Let's take a level 15 PC with 10 in their save stat, Greater Resilient runes and Expert Proficiency in their save (+21 to the save) against a level 16 Pale Sovereign or Siabrae (DC 41). You get a critical failure on an 10 on the die and succeed only on a nat 20. Everytime an enemy targets your weak save you can grab your cellphone and launch a video game because you are out of the fight. I think it's not at all in my mind, it's a hard truth: maximizing save stats is not optional if you play at high level. It's not the case before level 10, as a side note, I don't know if you have high level experience.


SuperBidi wrote:

Hi everyone,

One aspect I find annoying in PF2 is the need to increase save stats every five levels. It really limits the builds you can make. On top of it, all the save stats are increasing other important values, be it AC, hit points or Perception, making them even more important to increase.

I think it'd be really nice to see a comeback of a save item (that I'll call Cloak of Resistance as it was quite the item back in PF1) allowing you to dump a save stat without being too penalized. An item working like Bullwark, replacing your attribute modifier by a modifier dependent on the grade of the item. With, for example, a +1 bonus at level 7, +2 bonus at level 12 and +3 bonus at level 17. It would be worse than increasing the stat every 5 levels so it won't change the way optimized builds are being made, but it would still prevent a high level character to have a ridiculous save ending up crippled every time they have to roll it.

What do you think about it?

Are you talking about the Resilience armor fundamental rune? Or a specific item for a specific save? Like, a ring that's +2 to Reflex only, doesn't effect Fortitude or Will. Because we already have something that applies to all saves, and it doesn't even take up an extra resonance slot to use!

SuperBidi wrote:


against a level 16 Pale Sovereign or Siabrae (DC 41).

A DC 41 on a level 16 creature is an Extreme case, and thus not something you'd often run into. That's an edge case among edge cases, but I do see it happening sometimes, so not entirely invalid as a point. At that point it's the GM or adventure path being sadistic


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nick1wasd wrote:
Are you talking about the Resilience armor fundamental rune? Or a specific item for a specific save? Like, a ring that's +2 to Reflex only, doesn't effect Fortitude or Will. Because we already have something that applies to all saves, and it doesn't even take up an extra resonance slot to use!

I'm speaking of an item working like Bullwark: It replaces your attribute modifier. So it adds up with Resilience Rune.

It can target one save or all of them, it's not very important as I hardly see a character with multiple low saves.

nick1wasd wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:


against a level 16 Pale Sovereign or Siabrae (DC 41).
A DC 41 on a level 16 creature is an Extreme case, and thus not something you'd often run into. That's an edge case among edge cases, but I do see it happening sometimes, so not entirely invalid as a point. At that point it's the GM or adventure path being sadistic

It's an extreme case, but the result is even more extreme: only a nat 20 can save you. Against most monsters of your level you'll need a 15 on the die, so your critical failures will happen all the time.

I have a character in my Abomination Vault campaign (so he only got up to level 10) with 8 in Wisdom. He already missed a few fights, one against a confusing aura (he spent the fight confused as he never succeeded a single save each round) and another one where he critically failed a save even with a reroll. It's no fun. And level 10 is far nicer than higher levels. At high levels, even with a maxed attribute you can expect to fail some saves on a 15 on the die (after all, with my example, a maxed attribute would give you a success on a 17). Without it, even against a monster of your level with just high DC, your chances of critical failure are equivalent to your chances of success. And at high level, a critical failure eliminates you from the fight and sometimes even from the session. You should install a good game on your phone before playing such a character, because you'll certainly miss 10-20% of the fights.


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SuperBidi wrote:
I have a character in my Abomination Vault campaign (so he only got up to level 10) with 8 in Wisdom. He already missed a few fights, one against a confusing aura (he spent the fight confused as he never succeeded a single save each round) and another one where he critically failed a save even with a reroll. It's no fun.

I suppose it depends on how you define fun.

In a game I am playing in currently we just had that same scenario - one of the other players crit failed a save (rolled a 3), used a hero point and crit failed again (rolled a 4), so ended up confused for 3 rounds. So he played it to the hilt. It has been some of the most memorable and entertaining content in the campaign so far.

Certainly not something that would be fun to play if it happened regularly. But a low frequency of huge problems can make the game more fun - not less.


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But how often do you have a PC at level 15 with a 10 in Wis or Con? Wis helps with Perception and a ton of other skills, Con gives you hp. I have seen PCs with a Dex as low as 12 at level 15, but 10?

A PC at level 15 has 21 stat increases. Split between 6 stats, that would be an average of 3.5 increases per stat. So you could conceivably have a level 15 PC at 18 18 18 16 16 16. At level 1 a PC can have your class key ability score 18, representing 4 of the 9 available increases. That leaves you with 5 to hit the other 5 stats. You can walk out the gate with a 18 12 12 12 12 12. That would be unusual. Because of the way the stat increases are allocated, you can have one 18(background, free, ancestry and class), a 16 (background, free and ancestry), and either a 14 12 10 8 or 12 12 10 10 depending on your ancestry.

With an array of 18 16 14 12 10 8, at level 5 you increase each of the ones you had before, 19 18 16 14 10 8. At level 10 you have a choice. Do you want to chase the 20 for your second stat? 99% of builds the answer should be a no. Since you're not putting an increase in the 18, you can put it in a less important stat. So your array looks like this 20 18 18 16 and either 12 8 or 10 10.

At level 15 you are in the same predicament, but doubly so. You can have an array that looks like 21 19 19 18 10 10 OR 21 18 18 18 12 12. If you made slightly different choices at level 10, you could have a 21 18 18 16 14 12 or even a 20 18 18 18 14 12.

But theses are white room numbers. What build do you need to have an 18+ in 4 stats, but they aren't two of Dex Wis or Con? your level 15 PC has a +21 in their 10 attribute save. Ancient Black dragon has a DC 35 Frightful presence or 39 breath weapon. So you fail on a 13 or 17 respectively. But even that 39 is high. Most level 16 creature's save DCs are 37. Meaning a save that you have intentionally chosen to invest exactly zero resources is still a success 25% of the time.

Silver Crusade

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I think that the issue that the OP is identifying is real. Saves matter a LOT in this game and as a result almost all characters max them out or come very close to maxing them out.

But I'm not sure that I see that as a problem. Almost all characters have the option of going into full plate (and possibly going into sentinel for the sweet, sweet Mighty Bulwark level 10 feat) which reduces the "mandatory" stats to two. And that should be enough for just about any build (I have very little sympathy if you're claiming that your character concept NEEDS Str, Int AND Cha). Spell casters can afford to take the Str penalties and just ignore Str, Str based martials are going to meet the requirements, Dex based martials don't find this an issue anyways.

Right now it can be a bit of a struggle to fit everything you want into your character but it is essentially always possible to get most of what you want unless your character concept is a "Do everything" kind of character.

PF2 is all about choices and tradeoffs. And that is a good thing.

All that said, I'd have to think much harder to see if I'd actually oppose a solution similar to a Sentinel. An archetype to allow you to get Wisdom or Fortitude saves higher. But I'm pretty sure that I'd want it to be at least that expensive, certainly not something you could buy for money or with general feats.


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breithauptclan wrote:

In a game I am playing in currently we just had that same scenario - one of the other players crit failed a save (rolled a 3), used a hero point and crit failed again (rolled a 4), so ended up confused for 3 rounds. So he played it to the hilt. It has been some of the most memorable and entertaining content in the campaign so far.

Certainly not something that would be fun to play if it happened regularly. But a low frequency of huge problems can make the game more fun - not less.

The problem is not when it happens once. This character had a few more or less awful fights because of that and I was feeling bad as a GM. The first fight was fine, but it's the repetition that gets on your nerves.

pauljathome wrote:
I have very little sympathy if you're claiming that your character concept NEEDS Str, Int AND Cha

And why?

You are speaking of mechanics, as in: No character mechanically needs Str, Int and Cha. But if you want it from a flavor perspective? Like if I want to play a Charismatic Dragon Monk? Why do I need to end up with a blatant weakness that will certainly cripple my high end game?
With such an item, I could play a Charismatic Dragon Monk. It won't be the best build out there, but at least it's playable at high level.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Definitely shouldn't introduce another required item like a cloak of resistance—moving down to only 1-2 required items (armor, weapon if needed) in PF2 compared to PF1 was a great choice.


I like the idea. It's not too drastic for a invested item but would definitely help certain builds out.

Liberty's Edge

Most of the martial multiclass archetypes have a level 12 feat that increases one of your saves to Master. The Monk even lets you pick exactly which one, and I think is also the only one that can be applied to Will saves.

I'm not sure if the game really needs to start reintroducing "must have" items like PF1's Big Six, especially if they let folks just ignore their relevant stats. Even Bulwark specifically only applies against damaging effects, so it won't help you against gravity well yanking you off a cliff. If your character keeps getting hammered by mind control effects, look for some feats or items to mitigate them. A level 15 character shouldn't have too much trouble getting a hold of a black pearl aeon stone, which gives you a +4 status bonus against the save and tries to turn the spell back around on them.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:

I think it'd be really nice to see a comeback of a save item (that I'll call Cloak of Resistance as it was quite the item back in PF1) allowing you to dump a save stat without being too penalized. An item working like Bullwark, replacing your attribute modifier by a modifier dependent on the grade of the item. With, for example, a +1 bonus at level 7, +2 bonus at level 12 and +3 bonus at level 17. It would be worse than increasing the stat every 5 levels so it won't change the way optimized builds are being made, but it would still prevent a high level character to have a ridiculous save ending up crippled every time they have to roll it.

What do you think about it?

I think that's a pretty cool idea for an item, but I worry that things like Bulwark take feat resources to obtain and aren't just solved by items. This means a "dumpstat enabling" item would become pretty meta, even if it's not technically as good as normally increasing a stat. It would leave the people who don't optimize but do still chip in to their save stats now and then wondering why they're bothering.

If it were me, I'd like it better if it was a feat, but an item could work with some tweaks, or simply being a Rare option that a GM gives a player who finds out they're struggling because they accidentally built their character without the saves the late game campaign ended up needing.

Definitely something worth considering!

Liberty's Edge

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The system indeed makes investing in CON, WIS and DEX (except for the Bulwark thing) mandatory for all characters.

Bulwark is there precisely to help create strong armored warriors with low DEX without being overly penalized by the system. And most people seem to enjoy its existence.

Why not open the same possibilities for characters with low WIS or low CON ?


The Raven Black wrote:

The system indeed makes investing in CON, WIS and DEX (except for the Bulwark thing) mandatory for all characters.

Bulwark is there precisely to help create strong armored warriors with low DEX without being overly penalized by the system. And most people seem to enjoy its existence.

Why not open the same possibilities for characters with low WIS or low CON ?

That's a good point. There's room for bulwark for the other saves.


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WatersLethe wrote:

I think that's a pretty cool idea for an item, but I worry that things like Bulwark take feat resources to obtain and aren't just solved by items. This means a "dumpstat enabling" item would become pretty meta, even if it's not technically as good as normally increasing a stat. It would leave the people who don't optimize but do still chip in to their save stats now and then wondering why they're bothering.

If it were me, I'd like it better if it was a feat, but an item could work with some tweaks, or simply being a Rare option that a GM gives a player who finds out they're struggling because they accidentally built their character without the saves the late game campaign ended up needing.

Definitely something worth considering!

It's another possibility. The advantage of an item is that it can fit any build. Also, you compare it to Bullwark, but Bulwark is accessible at level 1 with a +3 bonus when this item will be way worse (as there should still be an incentive in increasing your save stats).

Liberty's Edge

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Here is my hot take, be warned it's a scorcher: After digging through my folders to try and find examples of PCs that are like what OP is talking about I came to a revelation: You're purposefully trying to build a DPR glass cannon type Character and the low saves are part and parcel of the min/max deal that you're trying to make in order to score huge numbers in combat. There is pretty much no other way to build a valid PC that meets the descriptive criteria for the thread, it has to be intentional.

If you have garbage stats for your saves and are ALSO playing a class that doesn't have a good save training advancement for the scores that apply to the weak saves you have.. then you need to buy the Armor Rune and save your Hero Points to save your life instead of spending them on offensive rolls.

If you fail to invest in your defenses, be it AC, Saves, HP, or saving your Hero Points while trying to recreate a whiteroom DPR monster then you're GOING to have a bad time when the dice decide they don't like you, that is perfectly normal. It's risk/reward, or in other words, the well-earned consequences of filing paperwork to join the IGoM (International Guild of Munchkins). This is not a bug, nor is it a problem with the system, in fact, it seems to be for all intents and purposes to be working as intended and nothing needs fixing. If you are adamant on wanting to play this kind of hyper-focused min/max kind of PC and to dump all defensive stats and equipment then you had better be sure to save lots of coin for the inevitable Raise Dead/Ressurection that you're going to need after to demolish 3/4 of a dungeon in record time only to die on the first round of the mini-boss room who prepared a high level Incapacitation Spell that you failed to get lucky on.

Liberty's Edge

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Slight correction: both items with the Bulwark property are level 2 (and would be difficult for any level 1 characters to afford anyway, since they start at 30gp). They're also gated by proficiency and Strength requirements.

Sovereign Court

pauljathome wrote:
I have very little sympathy if you're claiming that your character concept NEEDS Str, Int AND Cha

There's nothing about Laughing Shadow magus that actually requires you to go for Finesse weapons, but you have a feat that asks for Deception to Feint checks.

Sovereign Court

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I think a bulwark like option for the other saves is something to consider, but then let's look critically at bulwark:

- It comes with a high Strength price tag, to keep speed and armor check penalty under control.
- Even if you have enough Strength, you still lose some of that precious precious speed.
- It's only on saves against damaging effects. You can still be tripped.
- It trails the highest bonus to saves you could get from ability scores by a bit.
- It requires an armor proficiency that only a few classes get out of the box.
- It's not affordable at level 1.

I think that if you make something like it for other classes, it needs limitations and downsides on the same scale.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

Here is my hot take: After digging through my folders to try and find examples of PCs that are like what OP is talking about I came to a revelation: You're purposefully trying to build a DPR glass cannon type Character and the low saves are part and parcel of the min/max deal that you're trying to make in order to score huge numbers in combat.

If you have garbage stats for your saves and are ALSO playing a class that doesn't have a good save training advancement for the scores that apply to the weak saves you have.. then you need to buy the Armor Rune and save your Hero Points to save your life instead of spending them on offensive rolls.

If you fail to invest in your defenses, be it AC, Saves, HP, or saving your Hero Points while trying to recreate a whiteroom DPR monster then you're GOING to have a bad time when the dice decide they don't like you, that is perfectly normal and working as intended. It's risk/reward, or in other words, the well earned consequences of filing paperwork to join the IGoM (International Guild of Munchkins).

What?

A whiteroom DPR monster?
It looks like you don't know what characters I like to create, because whiteroom DPR is very far away from my goals.

For example, one character that I like is the full mental character. Int, Wis and Cha + Con because hit points are important. But you're stuck with either Dex or Str if you don't want crippling Reflex. Full mental characters are definitely a trope, Professor Xavier is one of them that should definitely have low Str and Dex. It's sad you just can't play one without ending with a crippling Reflex save (AC is another problem, but I find Reflex to be much more of a problem on a backline character).

Another classic example is the unwise character. The Leroy Jenkins Fighter who starts at 8 Wisdom and sticks to it up to level 20. Nope, you can't play it without having a massive weakness. It's nowhere close to a strong build or whatever, it's just a type of character the system punishes for just existing.

In terms of optimization, it's already quite easy to build whatever you want in the current system. This item would not help optimized builds but unoptimized ones.


Ascalaphus wrote:

I think a bulwark like option for the other saves is something to consider, but then let's look critically at bulwark:

- It comes with a high Strength price tag, to keep speed and armor check penalty under control.
- Even if you have enough Strength, you still lose some of that precious precious speed.
- It's only on saves against damaging effects. You can still be tripped.
- It trails the highest bonus to saves you could get from ability scores by a bit.
- It requires an armor proficiency that only a few classes get out of the box.
- It's not affordable at level 1.

I think that if you make something like it for other classes, it needs limitations and downsides on the same scale.

You forget the +1 AC from Heavy Armor which is one of the main reasons to get one.

Also, the bonus is +3 immediately, when I'm speaking of a bonus that will be just behind someone who starts at 10 and raises their stat every 5 levels. Something way worse than Bulwark but more easily accessible.


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One of the best examples is the charisma dragon monk since it's supported by the base class through dragon roar. You need to sacrifice one of your defensive stats if you want charisma as well as strength. Monks are at least flexible with their saves but still, it kinda stinks.


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SuperBidi wrote:

For example, one character that I like is the full mental character. Int, Wis and Cha + Con because hit points are important. But you're stuck with either Dex or Str if you don't want crippling Reflex. Full mental characters are definitely a trope, Professor Xavier is one of them that should definitely have low Str and Dex. It's sad you just can't play one without ending with a crippling Reflex save (AC is another problem, but I find Reflex to be much more of a problem on a backline character).

Another classic example is the unwise character. The Leroy Jenkins Fighter who starts at 8 Wisdom and sticks to it up to level 20. Nope, you can't play it without having a massive weakness. It's nowhere close to a strong build or whatever, it's just a type of character the system punishes...

So the full Int/Wis/Cha caster at level 15. SO you start 18 Int. 16 Wis and 14 Cha at level 1. Best you can do. Means you have Str 8, Dex 10, Con 12. Level 5 you have 8 10 14 19 18 16. 10 is 8 10 16 20 19 18 and then 15 8 10 18 21 20 19. You have a pretty bad Reflex save and AC. But you have lots of HP for a wizard. But you could easily switch a few stats around to hit 10 14 18 21 18 18. Now your AC and Ref is up +2. You could even be with 16 16 for dex and con if you want. It is your choice to have a glairing weakness.

The unwise fighter is again, a choice. If you want to play a PC with a weakness that is fine, but you chose that.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:

For example, one character that I like is the full mental character. Int, Wis and Cha + Con because hit points are important. But you're stuck with either Dex or Str if you don't want crippling Reflex. Full mental characters are definitely a trope, Professor Xavier is one of them that should definitely have low Str and Dex. It's sad you just can't play one without ending with a crippling Reflex save (AC is another problem, but I find Reflex to be much more of a problem on a backline character).

Another classic example is the unwise character. The Leroy Jenkins Fighter who starts at 8 Wisdom and sticks to it up to level 20. Nope, you can't play it without having a massive weakness. It's nowhere close to a strong build or whatever, it's just a type of character the system punishes...

So... you want to build a character with a glaring weakness (Professor X ain't dodging any fireballs), and then are upset that your character ends up having a weakness? It sounds like the system is giving you exactly the character you want. What am I missing?


Yeah, that's not the best case for this item SuperBidi. The better one is to support concepts that are apparently supported in the system like the charisma dragon monk or charisma magus.


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I think you haven't understood me Kelseus and Dimitri: I don't want to play a character with a glaring weakness, I just want to play a character. If the system punishes some builds making them very painful at high level (for all players around the table, when you have a character who regularly get painful conditions like Permanent Confusion, Controlled or just death at your table it's painful, not funny) you just don't play them.
So you can play an 8 Int Barbarian and it's fine, but you can't play an 8 Wis Barbarian without it being painful for the whole table. I find that annoying as I don't find that every Barbarian should be wise.


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With the handful of ancestries with a flaw in wisdom, it would be nice to be able to let them shine a bit more without having to counter that flaw. Gnoll melee alchemist is something I'd definitely do with this item. I'd probably do it anyways but this would make it easier.

Liberty's Edge

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Amazed how many people want to vehemently punish low WIS or low CON characters but are completely fine with Bulwark for low DEX characters.

How do you justify this ?

Scarab Sages

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I don't see a problem making a property rune that fills in Bulwark but for Will and Fort. You could even make it so you can only have of the three on a character. A 5-6th lvl armor property rune would be a sizable investment and you could limit it like Bulwark is limited. So Fort saves only vs. Poison or Will saves only against compulsion-type effects. It opens up a lot ancestries that are otherwise hard to work with because things like Elves are just gonna fail every fort save sent their way. It would even open up some class builds that are a little messy like ranged champions, melee/touch bards, and the oracle class in general.


The property rune idea is pretty good. adds a decent cost to it but is pretty valuable for those that would want it.


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The build that makes me shudder the most though, is the charisma melee alchemist. Feral mutagen supports demoralize. God's help the brave souls who would play that build.


Rather than fiddling with items I'd likely broaden the number of stats a save is linked to, should it ever become a problem at our table. Str-Con to fort, Dex-Int to ref, Wis-Cha to will. It'd equate to much the same thing given how much of an immediate meta-requirement such items would become. That or I'd play with the optional rule of proficiency without level to flatten the progression and make lower stats less of an issue.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Here is my hot take: After digging through my folders to try and find examples of PCs that are like what OP is talking about I came to a revelation: You're purposefully trying to build a DPR glass cannon type Character and the low saves are part and parcel of the min/max deal that you're trying to make in order to score huge numbers in combat.

If you have garbage stats for your saves and are ALSO playing a class that doesn't have a good save training advancement for the scores that apply to the weak saves you have.. then you need to buy the Armor Rune and save your Hero Points to save your life instead of spending them on offensive rolls.

If you fail to invest in your defenses, be it AC, Saves, HP, or saving your Hero Points while trying to recreate a whiteroom DPR monster then you're GOING to have a bad time when the dice decide they don't like you, that is perfectly normal and working as intended. It's risk/reward, or in other words, the well earned consequences of filing paperwork to join the IGoM (International Guild of Munchkins).

What?

A whiteroom DPR monster?
It looks like you don't know what characters I like to create, because whiteroom DPR is very far away from my goals.

For example, one character that I like is the full mental character. Int, Wis and Cha + Con because hit points are important. But you're stuck with either Dex or Str if you don't want crippling Reflex. Full mental characters are definitely a trope, Professor Xavier is one of them that should definitely have low Str and Dex. It's sad you just can't play one without ending with a crippling Reflex save (AC is another problem, but I find Reflex to be much more of a problem on a backline character).

Another classic example is the unwise character. The Leroy Jenkins Fighter who starts at 8 Wisdom and sticks to it up to level 20. Nope, you can't play it without having a massive weakness. It's nowhere close to a strong build or whatever, it's just a type of character the system punishes...

Says the guy that does all these whiteroom graphs and argues tooth and nail for whiteroom statistics.

You want to play a character that has no weakness while having all of the strengths. Sorry, PF2 doesn't work that way. PF1 didn't either, at least not this directly.

Professor Xavier wasn't on the front lines that much, they were in their own place doing things from afar there, not unlike, say, an Astral Projection via Cerebro, for example. And that was by design because Xavier is crippled and can't run or evade very well, and is also very feeble as a result. The character having such an obvious weakness compensates for them being a mental God. Otherwise, why would he choose to try and form an X-Men group when he is more than capable an individual all on his own?

The Leeroy Jenkins character is also a character played with an obvious flaw, which is that they are very unwise and impulsive in their actions, hence the low Wisdom score. So, it stands to reason that magic (or other abilities) that affect(s) the mind can very easily put Leeroy Jenkins either out of commission, or working for the enemy team, because again, unwise and impulsive. This is a character trope, by the way, that is borderline party-destructive regardless of whether Will Saves are a part of the equation or not. It's basically Chaotic Stupid taken to its logical conclusion.


aobst128 wrote:
The build that makes me shudder the most though, is the charisma melee alchemist. Feral mutagen supports demoralize. God's help the brave souls who would play that build.

I play that build in PFS. I'm only up to 6th right now, so Feral Mutagen isn't in play yet, but it's been a lot of fun.

Of course, the thing is, I haven't put anything but the Class Increase into Intelligence. Mutagenists can get away with not a lot of Int.

So, my Half-Orc Mutagenist is currently Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 18 .

The plan is to finish with Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20.

Of course, I dither a lot. Con 18, Wis 16? Dex 12, Con 18? Int 16, Con 18, Wis 18? I dunno. 10th level is a long way off, plenty of time to think about it.


The Raven Black wrote:

Amazed how many people want to vehemently punish low WIS or low CON characters but are completely fine with Bulwark for low DEX characters.

How do you justify this ?

It's justified by not having mundane means to create these mechanics. Dex gets away with it by being able to hide behind a reasonable armor trait and having specific limitations to its benefit. You can't reasonably expect to apply the same concept to the other two because they are fundamentally different from physical avoidance.


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It's this some PF2e Standard thing that I'm too Automatic Bonus Progression to understand?

Scarab Sages

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

Amazed how many people want to vehemently punish low WIS or low CON characters but are completely fine with Bulwark for low DEX characters.

How do you justify this ?

It's justified by not having mundane means to create these mechanics. Dex gets away with it by being able to hide behind a reasonable armor trait and having specific limitations to its benefit. You can't reasonably expect to apply the same concept to the other two because they are fundamentally different from physical avoidance.

Isn't the OP's idea that it would be a magic item rather than a mundane item? A worn item or rune represents more monetary and opportunity cost than Bulwark does on Full Plate. Making it work like Bulwark also means its not preferable to just having a good wis/con, it just lets you shore it up in a small area. A low Wis character is still going to be worse at perception and a collection of key skills including medicine. A lower con character is still more likely to go down from just raw damage.

Silver Crusade

SuperBidi wrote:


pauljathome wrote:
I have very little sympathy if you're claiming that your character concept NEEDS Str, Int AND Cha

And why?

You are speaking of mechanics, as in: No character mechanically needs Str, Int and Cha. But if you want it from a flavor perspective? Like if I want to play a Charismatic Dragon Monk?

Uh, a Dragon Monk doesn't need Int so hardly counts as a counter example to what I was saying.

But lets take a Dragon Monk. It has a D10 attack which means that it does fine damage if the Str isn't quite maximized. And as a Monk your AC is fine if not quite maximized.

So, its a quite viable character with (assume human for simplicity)
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Wis 12, Int 10, Cha 10 at level 1. Or make it a Lizardfolk so you have Cha 12 and Int 8.

At level 5, raise Dex, Con, Wis, Cha
At level 10, raise Con, Wis, Cha

This seems quite viable to me. At level 10 you're 1 behind on to hit and damage.

Are you paying something for the ability to have Cha skills? Of COURSE you are. Its a tradeoff.

What is the alternative? You can play a Dragon Monk with high Charisma with NO meaningful tradeoffs? Seems unfair to me.


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The Raven Black wrote:

Amazed how many people want to vehemently punish low WIS or low CON characters but are completely fine with Bulwark for low DEX characters.

How do you justify this ?

Because it's how it's already designed and printed, unlike OP's suggestion, which is a change. You'd be surprised at how far people go to defend the status quo and not admit the current state of the game is not perfectly balanced.

I'm with you on this one, Bidi.


ottdmk wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
The build that makes me shudder the most though, is the charisma melee alchemist. Feral mutagen supports demoralize. God's help the brave souls who would play that build.

I play that build in PFS. I'm only up to 6th right now, so Feral Mutagen isn't in play yet, but it's been a lot of fun.

Of course, the thing is, I haven't put anything but the Class Increase into Intelligence. Mutagenists can get away with not a lot of Int.

So, my Half-Orc Mutagenist is currently Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 18 .

The plan is to finish with Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20.

Of course, I dither a lot. Con 18, Wis 16? Dex 12, Con 18? Int 16, Con 18, Wis 18? I dunno. 10th level is a long way off, plenty of time to think about it.

Yeah, mutagenist can get away with low int better than other alchemists since mutagens are more sustainable than other specialties. It just hurts the rest of your toolkit and cuts into your versatility which is the main strength of the alchemist.

Those demoralizes will be pretty mean though. I salute you.


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pauljathome wrote:
Are you paying something for the ability to have Cha skills? Of COURSE you are. Its a tradeoff.

Not increasing your main attribute? Quite a tradeoff...

pauljathome wrote:
What is the alternative? You can play a Dragon Monk with high Charisma with NO meaningful tradeoffs? Seems unfair to me.

I was speaking of an item that is just giving you a low modifier, not a competitive one. On top of that you need one extra invested item and pay for it. So it's quite a tradeoff.

Also, why would a low Wisdom (for example) Monk would need a tradeoff when a low Intelligence Monk has no tradeoff besides a single Trained skill?

It's no tradeoff, it's just punishing some builds and not others.

Silver Crusade

SuperBidi wrote:


So you can play an 8 Int Barbarian and it's fine, but you can't play an 8 Wis Barbarian without it being painful for the whole table. I find that annoying as I don't find that every Barbarian should be wise.

First, if you want to play a character who acts as if they have a low wisdom but still has good will saves then just buy up your wisdom and tell the table that you're going to play the character is if they have a low wisdom. I doubt anybody will mind. Well, most people HATE playing with Leroy Jenkins so they might mind :-). But not because your stats say that you're wise while you're playing unwise.

But I'm getting the impression that you just don't like tradeoffs. If you dump your Wisdom and raise your Charisma you're getting access to a whole slew of skills that are generally more combat useful than the Wisdom skills (intimidate rocks. Diplomacy and Bluff are useful. Innate spells rock). And you're trying to find a cheap way (an invested item is cheap) to just not make hard choices and tradeoffs, to have everything you want without a significant cost.

Now, if you're arguing that some stats are better than others for some characters then I agree. I'd like to see Int and Str matter more. But this really doesn't seem the way to address that issue.


In actual play, I have not had much issue when I don't boost those stats. I routinely have low Wis characters and while they have a weakness in will, it has never been crippling. The proficiency rating always affected my character more than the stat.

Silver Crusade

SuperBidi wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Are you paying something for the ability to have Cha skills? Of COURSE you are. Its a tradeoff.

Not increasing your main attribute? Quite a tradeoff...

pauljathome wrote:
What is the alternative? You can play a Dragon Monk with high Charisma with NO meaningful tradeoffs? Seems unfair to me.

I was speaking of an item that is just giving you a low modifier, not a competitive one. On top of that you need one extra invested item and pay for it. So it's quite a tradeoff.

Also, why would a low Wisdom (for example) Monk would need a tradeoff when a low Intelligence Monk has no tradeoff besides a single Trained skill?

It's no tradeoff, it's just punishing some builds and not others.

You've deliberately chosen as your example a character that outdoes any other monk in base damage AND that needs to maximize Str partly as a counter to that maximal damage. Now you want to take that maximally damaging monk and make it still better.

Now, if you want to argue that its bad design that Dragon Roar needs Charisma and Dragon Stance is all about damage then I might agree.

But lets be honest here, you're NOT looking at viable here you're looking for optimal in more than one area.

Currently, a Dragon Monk is going to be something like
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Wis 10 or 12, Int 10 or 8, Cha 10 or 12 depending on choices like ancestry.

They're going to take Intimidating Prowess for a sweet +1. +2 at level 10

Even if you insist on constantly raising Str, Dex, Con and Wis to keep maximizing your damage potential (again, remaining the MOST damaging monk) your intimidate hardly sucks. Yeah, you're a little behind a bard. But you have a lot better action economy.

With your proposed magic item your character will be BETTER than the bard at intimidating at most levels (that intimidating prowess is very good).

Silver Crusade

dmerceless wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

Amazed how many people want to vehemently punish low WIS or low CON characters but are completely fine with Bulwark for low DEX characters.

How do you justify this ?

Because it's how it's already designed and printed, unlike OP's suggestion, which is a change. You'd be surprised at how far people go to defend the status quo and not admit the current state of the game is not perfectly balanced.

I'm with you on this one, Bidi.

Bulwark is kind of necessary to allow low Dex fighters in heavy armor (very definitely a trope) to be practical.

The Sentinel archetype is also necessary due to one key failing. It is the ONLY way to get useful heavy armor proficiency once a character gets expert proficiency in lower armor (level 13 for most non martials). If there was a general feat that gave expert proficiency in plate armor in that circumstance then I'd have no problem with Sentinel going away. It IS right at the edge of being too powerful.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
pauljathome wrote:
PF2 is all about choices and tradeoffs. And that is a good thing.

I mean that sounds nice on paper, but the tradeoffs being described here are incredibly asymmetrical (both in terms of the value of the tradeoff and the classes making them).

Like, if you want a game with meaningful tradeoffs, then a game where throwing all your spare points into Wis and Con is the objectively correct answer is a bad thing, not a good thing. The argument against meaningful tradeoffs is yours, here.

Themetricsystem wrote:
Here is my hot take, be warned it's a scorcher: After digging through my folders to try and find examples of PCs that are like what OP is talking about I came to a revelation: You're purposefully trying to build a DPR glass cannon type Character

In what world is a fighter who wants to invest in Int or an Investigator who wants to be better at face skills a min-maxing glass cannon?

Someone who's only interested in hitting things really hard is just going to increase their damage stat and their saves and not care about anything else and not be remotely applicable to what the OP is talking about.

You didn't just miss the mark, you're in the wrong solar system.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
You can't reasonably expect to apply the same concept to the other two because they are fundamentally different from physical avoidance.

I mean you absolutely can. It's all an arbitrary game construct anyways. There's nothing diagetically that ties your ability to resist mind control and your ability to notice where you left your car keys last night, except that that's historically how they've been linked. Literally nothing is stopping anyone from twisting that connection around or creating a new relationship. Especially when we're talking about magic items or feats, which deviate from normal by design.


pauljathome wrote:
In my opinion Bulwark wouldn't actually be necessary except for one key failing. It is the ONLY way to get useful heavy armor proficiency once a character gets expert proficiency in lower armor (level 13 for most non martials). If there was a general feat that gave expert proficiency in plate armor in that circumstance then I'd have no problem with Bulwark going away. It IS right at the edge of being too powerful.

I think you're mixing up Bulwark with Sentinel. Bulwark is an armor trait.

Silver Crusade

dmerceless wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
In my opinion Bulwark wouldn't actually be necessary except for one key failing. It is the ONLY way to get useful heavy armor proficiency once a character gets expert proficiency in lower armor (level 13 for most non martials). If there was a general feat that gave expert proficiency in plate armor in that circumstance then I'd have no problem with Bulwark going away. It IS right at the edge of being too powerful.
I think you're mixing up Bulwark with Sentinel. Bulwark is an armor trait.

You're quite right. I'll go back and edit my answer.


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pauljathome wrote:
But I'm getting the impression that you just don't like tradeoffs.

The item I'm speaking about creates the tradeoff. For example, in the case of the low Wisdom high Charisma character, you'd lose on Will saves (a bit as the item I'm speaking about don't fully compensate the classic save progression), on Perception (and as such on Initiative when you can't Avoid Notice) and in a few skills to gain in a few skills. Sounds like a good tradeoff, actually a bit harsh.

Without the item, there's no tradeoff, as a low Wisdom character is just unplayable at high level. On top of being crippled as soon as you need to roll a Will save, you'll end up with awful conditions forcing the party to a halt to find a way to get you back on feet.

At high level, you sometimes fail a save on a 15 on the die. It's already really hard. But failing saves on a 19 on the die is just unplayable. For example, the build I've shown will have +27 at level 20. Against the 41 DC of the level 16 monsters taken as example, you critically fail 20% of the time. We are speaking of enemies that are now level -4 compared to you and that have 20% chance to get you out of the fight with one spell. You find that playable? Because I find that laughable personally.

The concept of this item is not to get more optimized characters but to remove one way of completely failing a character (there are few in PF2 and this one is treacherous as you may not expect at low level that not raising your saves makes your character unplayable at high level).

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