Pathfinder: The digital age.


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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What are peoples thoughts on some potential new digital services to enjoy Pathfinder products more easily? We've got some good online resources like AON and path builder, but are official services like these likely to be a thing? I for one would be happy with some. An app to purchase PDFs plus a character builder and campaign tracker is my wishlist.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

I just want AoN as an offline App.

There was a PF1 app that had the entire PRD. I loved it and miss It (publisher stopped updating it and eventually Apple declared ‘Burn it with fire!’).


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I remember that PRD; it was super helpful.

I don't really want a new service; I'd more like to see Paizo's Downloads page updated and streamlined a bit. It's a bit of a headache to navigate right now and in some ways is showing its age with how things are laid out.


Perpdepog wrote:

I remember that PRD; it was super helpful.

I don't really want a new service; I'd more like to see Paizo's Downloads page updated and streamlined a bit. It's a bit of a headache to navigate right now and in some ways is showing its age with how things are laid out.

That would also help.

Sczarni

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Archivesofnethys, being Paizo's official, sponsored SRD, still maintains the old PRD.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think Pathfinder Nexus is exactly this, though the character builder or campaign management isn't implemented yet


More user friendly and functional website sounds like what people want. I concur. Probably the simpler solution instead of an app or something.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

No, I still want an app.

That “offline” part is pretty key.

And yes I have the PDFs, but the PRD allowed me to search all the PDFs, including the ones I don’t own.

AoN - offline would be even better, as it includes supplemental material.


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App it is then. I'd buy it.

Liberty's Edge

How are people somehow forgetting that Hero Lab has been supporting the Paizo game systems with digital tools and expanding on them for over a decade?


Of course I haven't forgotten about hero lab. Mostly because I haven't heard of them. 3rd party stuff is all well and good. I'm wondering if first party stuff could be a possibility.


On closer look, it's pretty close to fist party. If they try something else like it, it could be weird for that partnership.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A lot of people ditched Hero Lab when it became subscription only. The same reason I no longer use MS Word. I want to buy it and own it. They want to have a perpetual income stream. Doesn't work out for me.


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Ched Greyfell wrote:
A lot of people ditched Hero Lab when it became subscription only. The same reason I no longer use MS Word. I want to buy it and own it. They want to have a perpetual income stream. Doesn't work out for me.

In a modern world where every business wants you on the hook for the life of you using a product, I keep my subscriptions to an absolute minimum. I only want to be a source of assured income for essential services and one or two streaming services for the sake of replacing cable. Every other product with a monthly cost is an immediate nope from me. Paizo doesn't reap subscriber profits from me but I still buy enough products to get 3/4 or 1/2 of the way there bc I like the products and wanna help keep the lights on at paizo. It's just something about a business wanting a constant hand in my wallet I can't stomach on principle. As an example I would rather pay 150 dollars for the warhammer app so I could support GW ad use them as my army builder over the free battle scribe, but a monthly charge of $5 a month was too much for me (as insane as that sounds).


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I also ditched Hero Lab when they said that PF2e would follow the Starfinder model of requiring an online connection for large pieces of functionality that had no actual interaction with anything that should require being online. I don't always have decent internet for sessions.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:

I just want AoN as an offline App.

There was a PF1 app that had the entire PRD. I loved it and miss It (publisher stopped updating it and eventually Apple declared ‘Burn it with fire!’).

I specifically want well-done app with a (full) spellbook. 'Pathfinder 2e Spell DB' is very good, but stopped updating. :'-( Even though it's almost open source I don't have the capability to update it (erratas and new books with spells).

Pathbuilder doesn't have a spellbook and is rather heavy app.

Liberty's Edge

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Errenor wrote:
Pathbuilder doesn't have a spellbook and is rather heavy app.

Yes it does? I've been using it for a Witch I play for the last year and a half.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I abandoned Hero Lab when they abandoned Starfinder (they're years behind now, still haven't supplied features they promised on launch) and they made it clear they can't really be trusted to deliver on promises. They also dragged their feet too long on getting an option for my players to join my game without paying a fee, and they still don't have an option to join without making an account.

Then they refused to support Battlezoo Bestiary (or any 3rd party/homebrew) and now I'm actively encouraging people to steer clear.

I gave them too much of my time, patience, and money to be brow beaten about forgetting they exist.

Liberty's Edge

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Brow beaten? Who is intimidating you? I'm confused. I think maybe what you're trying to say is that you don't want to be reminded of being let down maybe?

Dark Archive

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There was a pretty big herolab forum post where lots of users challenged the companies decision to abandon offline HLC development for Starfinder and Pathfinder 2e (http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=61062).

They made a number of pretty silly business assumptions that haven't panned out. I was a PF1e HLC loyalist and still use it for that/Dnd5e. But there is a <0% chance I would pay them a subscription fee and purchase content packages as well. The model is dead on arrival for me unless the subscription fee and content package fees were ridiculously low. As it stands pathbuilder is outright better, maintained by 1 guy, gets content up faster, is cheaper by a significant margin (one $5.00 investment unless you support him on patreon). Nexus is in the exact same position, expect they at least have discounts if you already bought the product from Paizo.

HLO is a big reason why I never got into Starfinder. My brother made the jump and when I tested it out it was a hot mess (unstable, poor functionality/gui, lack of offline/pdf, etc.). I'm sure it may have improved by now, but not enough to get me past the aweful product model. Not sure if Pathbuilder will tackle starfinder at some point, but he'd have my money if he did!

Liberty's Edge

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He did! It's called Starbuilder.


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There's literally no point to HLO now that Pathbuilder exists.


I go to Hephaistos when I want to make Starfinder stuff: it does characters, starships, mechs, vehicles and monsters/npc's. No cost and you can store 30 of each category.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
Brow beaten? Who is intimidating you? I'm confused. I think maybe what you're trying to say is that you don't want to be reminded of being let down maybe?

They're talking about this.

Themetricsystem wrote:
How are people somehow forgetting that Hero Lab has been supporting the Paizo game systems with digital tools and expanding on them for over a decade?

Now, "brow beaten" may be a bit overstated, but you were at least chiding people... and for someone who felt badly used by the company in question? I can see how they might have felt that chiding as stronger than you had intended it.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
aobst128 wrote:
On closer look, it's pretty close to fist party.

Every party's a fist party when there's a monk around.


Fumarole wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
On closer look, it's pretty close to fist party.
Every party's a fist party when there's a monk around.

Fist party software: Make Something Stop Computing With Your Fist.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Fumarole wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
On closer look, it's pretty close to fist party.
Every party's a fist party when there's a monk around.
Fist party software: Make Something Stop Computing With Your Fist.

A fist party is how your monk makes Diplomacy checks. ;)


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Brow beaten? Who is intimidating you? I'm confused. I think maybe what you're trying to say is that you don't want to be reminded of being let down maybe?

They're talking about this.

Themetricsystem wrote:
How are people somehow forgetting that Hero Lab has been supporting the Paizo game systems with digital tools and expanding on them for over a decade?
Now, "brow beaten" may be a bit overstated, but you were at least chiding people... and for someone who felt badly used by the company in question? I can see how they might have felt that chiding as stronger than you had intended it.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I thought to browbeat someone meant to lecture them


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graystone wrote:
A fist party is how your monk makes Diplomacy checks. ;)

Well, that or booze. Stumbling Stance does offer an interesting path for cha-monks... especially drunken dragon kobold cha-monks.

...but I digress.


When I said "fist party", I just want everyone to know that drunken kobold monks were exactly what I was referring to.


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Losonti wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Pathbuilder doesn't have a spellbook and is rather heavy app.
Yes it does? I've been using it for a Witch I play for the last year and a half.

No, it does not? It has spells. That is not a spell book yet. Maybe I'm missing something, but to look up some spell in Pathbuilder you need to lauch app, select char menu, load char, switch to spells tab, select correct level, and then discover that your char doesn't have spells of this level yet and/or the spell is not of his tradition so it won't be shown. This is not a spell book.

Spellbook is when you have a list of absolutely all spells in the game and then can filter it by any trait, level, tradition and other criteria together or separately. Nexus has a spellbook, but the cite is terribly slow and badly designed, and anyway I'm talking about offline app.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Looking for a first party solution to something like this likely isn't going to happen, because Paizo is not a tech company. They would have to hire entire teams to develop apps, and that is not something they can really afford to do. That's why they partner with companies like Nexus and sponsor sites like Archives of Nethys.

Liberty's Edge

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Errenor wrote:

No, it does not? It has spells. That is not a spell book yet. Maybe I'm missing something, but to look up some spell in Pathbuilder you need to lauch app, select char menu, load char, switch to spells tab, select correct level, and then discover that your char doesn't have spells of this level yet and/or the spell is not of his tradition so it won't be shown. This is not a spell book.

Spellbook is when you have a list of absolutely all spells in the game and then can filter it by any trait, level, tradition and other criteria together or separately. Nexus has a spellbook, but the cite is terribly slow and badly designed, and anyway I'm talking about offline app.

Okay, then we're using the term "spellbook" differently. To me, a spellbook is a particular character's list of spells that are available to them, whether that's in a repertoire, spellbook, familiar, etc. What you're describing sounds more to me like a reference database, which of course the Archives of Nethys works perfectly fine as. It's online and not an app, as you say, but the scenario of "I need to look up any spell in the game at a moment's notice but don't have internet access on the smartphone I'm using to look them up" is such an edge case that I don't know it would be worth the investment of resources to account for. It's certainly not within Paizo's wheelhouse.


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Losonti wrote:
the scenario of "I need to look up any spell in the game at a moment's notice but don't have internet access on the smartphone I'm using to look them up" is such an edge case

It absolutely is not. The site is bad even on PC and on phone it's almost unusable. And bad internet coverage certainly does happen. Also this was in context of making offline AoN, so it's not additional resources. Or doesn't concern Paizo directly in the first place, so your dismissal is not to the point.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Errenor wrote:
Losonti wrote:
the scenario of "I need to look up any spell in the game at a moment's notice but don't have internet access on the smartphone I'm using to look them up" is such an edge case
It absolutely is not. The site is bad even on PC and on phone it's almost unusable. And bad internet coverage certainly does happen. Also this was in context of making offline AoN, so it's not additional resources. Or doesn't concern Paizo directly in the first place, so your dismissal is not to the point.

Yeah, just gonna say, as someone who lives out in the countryside with only a single Internet provider who'll service my house without having to shell out thousands of dollars to get another one to lay out their cables for me, and the service of said provider gave me constant issues and even full-on disconnections for hours at a time over the course of years... It can get really rough in our areas.

God forbid you're in a place more close to the mountains, or somewhere way off the nearest paved highway, those usually only have satellite options for Internet service, and those are extremely spotty in terms of reliability and dealing with ping.

Potentially having an offline option to look to would be helpful. Not sure how much effort that would take for the AoN crew, especially for said resource to be updated regularly for errata and new content releases. But I do think it's a big enough issue to at least reasonably consider it.


Ezekieru wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Losonti wrote:
the scenario of "I need to look up any spell in the game at a moment's notice but don't have internet access on the smartphone I'm using to look them up" is such an edge case
It absolutely is not. The site is bad even on PC and on phone it's almost unusable. And bad internet coverage certainly does happen. Also this was in context of making offline AoN, so it's not additional resources. Or doesn't concern Paizo directly in the first place, so your dismissal is not to the point.

Yeah, just gonna say, as someone who lives out in the countryside with only a single Internet provider who'll service my house without having to shell out thousands of dollars to get another one to lay out their cables for me, and the service of said provider gave me constant issues and even full-on disconnections for hours at a time over the course of years... It can get really rough in our areas.

God forbid you're in a place more close to the mountains, or somewhere way off the nearest paved highway, those usually only have satellite options for Internet service, and those are extremely spotty in terms of reliability and dealing with ping.

Potentially having an offline option to look to would be helpful. Not sure how much effort that would take for the AoN crew, especially for said resource to be updated regularly for errata and new content releases. But I do think it's a big enough issue to at least reasonably consider it.

Ah, I forgot some people live in backwards places such as the United States of America.

Liberty's Edge

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I actually don't need to be talked down to about rural internet access, since I live in a rural state and it's a policy area I've worked in for years! It is a real problem, but solving that is outside the scope of Paizo's mission and/or capabilities.

If your internet situation wherever you play is so dire that you can't load up AoN on your smartphone (which works perfectly fine on mobile, I use it all the time), I gotta ask: how are you gonna download the app? How are you posting here? What's stopping you from scraping the website and having your own offline copy?

Also, I don't know if you're intending this or not, but the tone of your posts is coming off as fairly hostile, and I don't know why.


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Losonti wrote:
If your internet situation wherever you play is so dire that you can't load up AoN on your smartphone (which works perfectly fine on mobile, I use it all the time), I gotta ask: how are you gonna download the app? How are you posting here? What's stopping you from scraping the website and having your own offline copy?

I live in one of those area and it's also a dead zone as far as phones, so 'just grab your phone' is assuming a lot: not everyone has a smart phone to pull things up. As to 'how to pull things up, it's darn simple. You take your tablet, laptop to one a the places that has free wi-fi. McDonalds, burger king, walmart, starbucks, dunkin, target, sheetz, wafflehouse, and about a thousand other places I didn't mention.

As to scrapping the site, time, storage and knowhow could all be issues.

As to fairly hostile... well, your post didn't come of as very chill and I didn't see the post you replied to as hostile at all: some of us are just used to having to explain that not everyone can just pick up a cellphones or hook up to out high speed internet [it hasn't been that long ago I had dial-up] and haven't had to spend an afternoon at mcdonalds to get your e-mails and update your programs.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm very familiar with needing to do that, actually! But I apologize if my own posts came off as hostile, aggressive, etc. I'm mostly feeling bemused by what feel to me like pretty angry responses. It's not like I'm personally standing in the way of these apps being created. My intention was more along the lines of "that doesn't exist, and probably won't, but here are some options that can get you closer!"


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Losonti wrote:
I'm not sure what your post is in response to?

I deleted my post, because I was being needlessly hostile, but to be clear I was definitely responding to you and your “I don’t need to be talked down to” comment, followed by an entire paragraph of you talking down to Ezikeiru. I’m not sure if that’s how you intended to cone across, but it sounded that way to me.

Losonti wrote:
My intention was more along the lines of "that doesn't exist, and probably won't, but here are some options that can get you closer!"

I will take your word for it, but to be blunt it sounded like you were calling him an idiot. And calling it “an edge case not worth developing for” in the first place sounded pretty hostile.

Edit: I am absolutely not accusing you of intending to sound like that, by the way. Merely pointed it out since you do seem confused by the response you got.

Taking a step back from all of that, I personally have great internet access, but would still like an offline App that is more or less a scraped AoN. Preferably something I can use with my iPad or other tablet.

For one thing, none of my tablets have an internal modem, so not having to have WiFi available is a plus.

Liberty's Edge

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That's fair! I definitely had my hackles up without realizing it and Ezikeiru caught some of that. I also wasn't particularly clear about who my post was addressing, even when it changed. Sorry.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm just gonna state, my reply was not intended to be read as being hostile at all. I was merely presenting my own home situation as an example, as well as some examples I've known from friends of mine. I apologize for not being more clear with my writing.

Just as a general reply to the points made though: Having to download a single app, which is typically usually less than 100 MBs, a single time to use offline VS having a live connection to load any page at AoN is definitely an improvement when my connection would go haywire. You can download the app during the time in which the connection is stable, and have it available when it is unstable.

Also, I'd argue that investing into a company to make an offline app that works off of scrapping the info generated from AoN is not the most out-of-the-way thing Paizo could possibly do. Paizo would certainly not be likely to do it themselves, but their ability to license out the work to others who are more capable at app development is certainly within their power as a business. Whether they can afford said licensing is much more likely to be up in the air.

As for how I'm posting here at all: This past month or so, I finally managed to get someone from the new company that bought my old ISP out, after 6 months worth of calling them and reporting said issues, to come out and fix the signal issues I was having. And before that happened, I did have a lot of AoN pages scrapped for offline use (and liberal use of my .PDFs too!).

Lastly, y'all... Just call me Eze. Seeing y'all misspell my username back-to-back is funny, not gonna lie!


Ezekieru wrote:
Lastly, y'all... Just call me Eze. Seeing y'all misspell my username back-to-back is funny, not gonna lie!

I usually copy/paste names so if I make a mistake, I'll call you by someone else's name. ;)

Sczarni

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For those with poor access to internet, this has potential.


Ezekieru wrote:


Also, I'd argue that investing into a company to make an offline app that works off of scrapping the info generated from AoN is not the most out-of-the-way thing Paizo could possibly do. Paizo would certainly not be likely to do it themselves, but their ability to license out the work to others who are more capable at app development is certainly within their power as a business. Whether they can afford said licensing is much more likely to be up in the air.

I'd also add, that in the case of offline PF2e spellbook the not particularly insightful (not yours) comment “an edge case not worth developing for” is totally out of place, because this app already exists. I already mentioned it: 'Pathfinder 2e Spell DB' on Android. The only problem it has - really old database. Update it, recompile - and everything would be set (not saying this is not a lot of work). As I understand the licensing should allow people to continue the work and probably even for Paizo.

BTW, there even exist a project to make a database of all rules: https://gitlab.com/jrmiller82/pathfinder-2-sqlite but it also looks abandoned. :(

Liberty's Edge

IIRC AoN has an export feature that can be used for the spells when you use the Table view.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You can use this online spell reference to bookmark the spells that are in your spellbook, sort the list to show only the spells that are bookmarked and then use your browser's print function to Save as PDF and save that file locally. Now you have an offline spellbook.


Fumarole wrote:
You can use this online spell reference to bookmark the spells that are in your spellbook, sort the list to show only the spells that are bookmarked and then use your browser's print function to Save as PDF and save that file locally. Now you have an offline spellbook.

Thanks, but it is the same thing as the app I was talking about. The author made online version of it for iOS people and PCs. :) So, the same problem: no new books and erratas.

The Raven Black wrote:
IIRC AoN has an export feature that can be used for the spells when you use the Table view.

Interesting find, but it only returns the table view itself: only name, traits and short description, not full spells.

Though, as I understand, ways to fully copy AoN exist and the author of the app and online reference above did that, at least as the start of the project.

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