Damage Types and Traits


Rules Discussion


There used to be a section in the core rule book called "Damage Types and Traits" (its in my CRB) that seems to have disappeared between printings of the CRB, which stated:

Quote:


Damage Types and Traits
When an attack deals a type of damage, the attack action gains that trait. For example, the Strikes and attack actions you use wielding a sword when its flaming rune is active gain the fire trait, since the rune gives the weapon the ability to deal fire damage.

Its removal never appeared in the errata.

There was a section in the lost omens ancestry guide that referenced the change indirectly since it said attacks with flaming weapon don't gain the fire trait.

I've been bumping into this rules change a bunch when trying to make my witch for Outlaws of Alkenstar, I'm planning on taking elemental betrayal and a flame wisp familiar, and it turns out there are a lot of feats that give attacks with elemental damage, but don't have the corresponding trait. Stuff like Ifrit's Lavasoul ancestry feat which deals 1 bonus fire damage, Goblins scalding spit, Automaton's energy beam, or Kitsune's foxfire.

I'm not sure why it was changed, since its not like fire immunity gives immunity to everything with the fire trait (the section on immunity explains that for complex effects, like a spell that deals both acid and fire damage, the damage immunity only applies to the fire section).

I'd like to hear community thoughts on it as well? Should stuff like foxfire have the fire trait? Do you houserule it? Was there some edge case I'm not seeing that made it broken?

Horizon Hunters

It was removed because if it stayed you would be unable to attack at all underwater with a Flaming weapon.

Always go with the newest printing, in that that rule doesn't exist anymore.


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For Elemental Betrayal and fire damage specifically, the damage bonus happens any time that they take fire damage even if the effect doesn't have the fire trait. Cold damage also triggers the bonus damage when water is chosen as the type for the spell.

But that doesn't really answer your question about things dealing fire damage that don't have the fire trait.


I think the section on immunity that talks about traits applying only to selective parts of effects would/should have covered the "Flaming sword doesn't work underwater" edge case. As it is, post-stealth-errata, you still have effects like Intimidating Strike, where the GM should probably rule that a creature immune to fear effects still takes the damage from the Strike, in the same way (pre-stealth-errata) they should rule that a Flaming sword loses only its fire damage while underwater.

I suspect the stealth errata was made for other reasons, as a result, but I'm not entirely sure what they are; it easily could have been to specifically prevent Elemental Betrayal or Resonant weapons from triggering off of effects too easily - who knows?


The new rules lead to silly stuff like foxfire and fire beams being usable underwater anyways.

Elemental betrayal does trigger off of fire or cold damage but not electric/acid (only spells with the air or earth trait). For my character the flame wisp familiar only triggers off of effects with the fire trait, as an example.


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Ganigumo wrote:
Elemental betrayal does trigger off of fire or cold damage but not electric/acid (only spells with the air or earth trait).

Yeah, that imbalance is one of my biggest problems with Elemental Betrayal. Fire and Cold work great. Earth works somewhat. Air is terrible. If Earth and Air also triggered on some type of energy damage regardless of traits, that would make the entire spell more reliable.

Ganigumo wrote:
For my character the flame wisp familiar only triggers off of effects with the fire trait, as an example.

The best thing to do is work with the GM and the other players and use common sense. Add the appropriate elemental trait to things that should have it and allow it to interact with things that it should interact with.

It is basically impossible to make rules that are thoroughly exhaustive and completely correct.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Paizo seems to really have something against electricity themed characters this edition. It's basically been excised from most elemental themed options. So the oddity with Betrayal is probably completely intentional.


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Squiggit wrote:
Paizo seems to really have something against electricity themed characters this edition. It's basically been excised from most elemental themed options. So the oddity with Betrayal is probably completely intentional.

They seem to lean very hard into "there are 4 elements, and this is what controlling the elements is about" which is sad to me since ice and lightning are staples of that kind of fantasy as well.

Liberty's Edge

Or they decided Electric Arc is a bit too good.

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