Bard's Signature Spells

[roll4initiative]

I'm having an issue about a Bard's Signature Spells in a game. The GM says that my Signature soothe spell on my 3rd level Bard takes up a 2nd level slot when I cast the heightened version. From what I can tell, Sig Spells do not take up a higher spell slot when casting a heightened version. It says it right there: "You don’t need to learn heightened versions of signature spells separately; instead, you can heighten these spells freely."

Heightened freely like a cantrip, right?

Signature Spells from CRB:

"Experience allows you to cast some spells more flexibly. For each spell level you have access to, choose one spell of that level to be a signature spell. You don’t need to learn heightened versions of signature spells separately; instead, you can heighten these spells freely. If you’ve learned a signature spell at a higher level than its minimum, you can also cast all its lower-level versions without learning those separately. If you swap out a signature spell, you can choose a replacement signature spell of the same spell level at which you learned the previous spell. You can also retrain specifically to change a signature spell to a different spell of that level without swapping any spells; this takes as much time as retraining a spell normally does."

What would be the point of having Signature Spells if I had to use higher level spell slots like any other spell?

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Your GM is right.

Spontaneous casters need to know their spells at whatever level they want to cast the spell at, signature spells are known at all levels.

As to why you would want to do that, soothe heals for more as it heightens and you only get so many spells known as a spontaneous caster so learning soothe at every level you may want to cast it is far from ideal.

[Themetricsystem]

You CAN heighten them freely. This also lets you DOWN cast them if you happen to have them learned at a level higher than it can first be learned as well.

The benefit of this is that if you know, for example, Soothe and you make it a Signature Spell then you can ALWAYS cast that from ANY Slot you still haven't consumed for that day regardless of the Spell Level. It does not mean you MUST always cast the spell at the highest Slot you have, repeat, you do NOT have to use higher-level slots, it's just an option to do so as well as use lower-level slots. Every Signature Spell you add is effectively like 1 free Spell Known of each Level of Spell you can cast -1 since you still need to learn the Spell at SOME level that you're eligible to configure a Signature Spell for.

[Ganigumo]

As Grognard stated spontaneous casters need to know the spell at the level they want to cast it.

So if you picked soothe as one of your first level spells you only have first level soothe in your repertoire. In order to cast a soothe heightened to level 2 you would need to pick a level 2 soothe as one of the second level spells in your repertoire (at which point you would have both soothe level 1, and soothe level 2 in your repertoire).

Signature spells lets you heighten it freely, which means when you pick that level 1 soothe as a signature spell you can cast a higher (or lower) level version of that spell, without knowing it at that level.

another way to think of it is picking a spell as a signature spell adds all possible levels of that spell to your repertoire.

You still need to use the appropriate level's spell slot though, cantrips and focus spells are the only spells that auto-heighten, since they don't use spell slots.

[Nefreet]

And it's not just Bards. All* spontaneous casters, including the Archetypes, work that way.

* maybe not Summoners. IDK. I don't care for them so never looked it up.

[Blake's Tiger]

I had to go look it up. All of summoner's spells are signature spells.

[The Raven Black]

What they said. Signature spell means that you can cast that spell in all its versions (normal and heightened to any level). Not that you get the heightened effect without using a level-appropriate slot.

For example, if you have Soothe only as a 1st level non-signature spell, you can only cast it using 1st level slots. And it is the 1st level version.

If you have Soothe only as a 2nd level non-signature spell, you can only cast it using 2nd level slots. And it is the 2nd level (heightened +1) version.

If you have it as a signature spell, no matter the level you got it, you can cast it using slots from 1st level or 2nd level or any level you can cast. And it is always the version heightened to the level of the slot you used.

[roll4initiative]

So, now that I'm third level, and I want to cast soothe as a heightened version, I need to use up a second level slot for it?

Let's say my daily spell choices are...

1st (3/day): ill omen, magic weapon, soothe*.
2nd (2/day): invisibility*, telekinetic maneuver.
(Signature Spells are denoted with the asterisk).

If I then cast soothe heightened, that would only leave me with one 2nd slot left?

What does "heightened freely" mean then?

Every caster needs to use a higher level slot to cast a heightened version of a spell.

If I was a wizard casting a heightened version of a spell, obviously it would take up a higher slot.
They don't have Signature Spells, though.

Edit: OMG. I just found this on Reddit. Now it makes sense.

Quote:

Spells can be learned at higher levels. Check.

If I want Heal at level 2, I choose to learn it at level 2. This means I cannot use it at any other level than the one at which I've prepared it.

This means level 1, 3, 4, etc. variations are not something I can cast without knowing them at each and every level.

Enter Signature Spell.

You get to choose one spell at each level as a "signature" spell, meaning you can freely Heighten it to the maximum level you can cast it at (and, conversely, cast it at the lowest level it is possible).

So, if I learn Heal at level 2, and choose it as my signature spell, I can cast it at literally any level I am capable of casting (1, 2 which it's learned at currently, 3 when I can, 4, etc).

[Errenor]

roll4initiative wrote:

So, now that I'm third level, and I want to cast soothe as a heightened version, I need to use up a second level slot for it?

yes

roll4initiative wrote:

If I then cast soothe heightened, that would only leave me with one 2nd slot left?

yes

roll4initiative wrote:

What does "heightened freely" mean then?

I guess you've already found the answer, but it means you only need to spend one place in your repertoire for a spell (and they are extremely valuable) instead of several places at all levels you want to be able to cast it.

[Baarogue]

roll4initiative wrote:

Let's say my daily spell choices are...

bit of a segue, but I'm intrigued by this line

[HammerJack]

Yes, normally, to cast a spell heightened as a spontaneous casters, you must have that spell known at the level you want to cast it at. So you'd be having a spell known for Soothe (1) and a spell known for Soothe (2).

"Heightened freely" means that you don't need to learn the spell at different levels. You know the spell at all valid levels and can just choose how big of a spell slot to spend at the time of casting.

Also, realize that if it was like cantrips or focus spells, and meant you got heightened effects without spending higher level slots, that would make spontaneous casters MASSIVELY more powerful than any prepared caster, since they'd be ableto use all if their spell slots as max level slots, with their chosen spells. The disparity would be shockingly unbalanced.

[The Raven Black]

roll4initiative wrote:

What does "heightened freely" mean then?

Every caster needs to use a higher level slot to cast a heightened version of a spell.

If I was a wizard casting a heightened version of a spell, obviously it would take up a higher slot.
They don't have Signature Spells, though.

Prepared casters do not have Signature spells because they know all versions of a given spell at once.

But they have to prepare them beforehand if they want to cast them ...

[Falco271]

Enter Esoteric polymath and start having real fun as a semi-prepared spontaneous caster.