Spell Turning and Meteor Swarm


Rules Questions


So if an enemy has Spell turning and hypothetically say he has 10 levels of spell turning and gets targeted with all 4 meteors from Meteor Swarm, what happens?

Is each meteor considered to be a 9th level spell so only 1 meteor gets turned and 1 gets 10% reduction in damage and the 2 are not spell turned? Or are all 4 spell turned back on the caster?

Liberty's Edge

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Nothing.
Meteor swarm normally isn't aimed at you.
If you choose to aim one of the spheres at a creature it is a ranged touch attack and it isn't affected by spell turning.

Spell turning wrote:
Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. From seven to ten (1d4+6) spell levels are affected by the turning. The exact number is rolled secretly.

Spell turning only work on spells that have a "target" line in the description.

Note that rays aren't affected, too. They are effects, not targeted spells.


"Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells" I interpret this as melee touch spells not ranged touch spells.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

In that case, meteor swarm does not have a target and is not effected by spell turning as an area spell.

Spell turning wrote:
The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected.


And for the record, Meteor swarm does not have a Range: Touch in the spells entry.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
yonman17 wrote:
"Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells" I interpret this as melee touch spells not ranged touch spells.

As it doesn't specify "melee touch" or "ranged touch" it should fail to affect both.

Meter work makes a ranged touch attack in a special case, but it is an area spell. As TriOmegaZero said, it hasn't a target line.


No Target: Spell, makes sense now. Thanks for the clarification


Diego Rossi wrote:
yonman17 wrote:
"Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells" I interpret this as melee touch spells not ranged touch spells.

As it doesn't specify "melee touch" or "ranged touch" it should fail to affect both.

Meter work makes a ranged touch attack in a special case, but it is an area spell. As TriOmegaZero said, it hasn't a target line.

“Touch range spells” is explicitly defined as melee touch in the magic rules. Ranged Touch spells are their own thing, this is why most effects that apply to “touch spells” don’t also apply to “ranged touch spells”.

That said, meteor swarm is not affected by spell turning because it is an area effect spell not a targeted spell. Even though the spells description allows each meteor to be directly targeted via ranged touch attack, it still remains an area effect spell fur the purposes of effects like Spell Turning.

The Exchange

Diego Rossi wrote:
yonman17 wrote:
"Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells" I interpret this as melee touch spells not ranged touch spells.
As it doesn't specify "melee touch" or "ranged touch" it should fail to affect both.

“Touch range” is a range. (Which the CRB defines as personal, touch, close, medium, long, unlimited, or range expressed in feet.)

“Ranged touch” isn’t a range. A spell of any range (other than personal or touch) can require a ranged touch, which means you make an attack roll against touch AC instead of regular AC.

Liberty's Edge

I did a bit of text search in the CRB spells with the word "ranged touch", and all the returns were for the text of the spell, never for the initial statistics. The spell themselves had "Effect: Ray", or "Effect one arrow of acid", and variant, or even "Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one rope-like object, length up to 50 ft. + 5 ft./level; see text (Rope Trick)", so basic spells probably never have that word in the relevant lines.

The metamagic feat "Reach spell" mess with that, as it can make a touch spell a ranged touch spell.
When it is used, in my interpretation, the target "creature touched" will become "creature touched with a ranged attack" and still not fulfill the requirement of Spell Turning. YMMV.

The Exchange

Diego Rossi wrote:
The metamagic feat "Reach spell" mess with that, as it can make a touch spell a ranged touch spell.

But it doesn't "make it a ranged touch spell." It makes it close, medium, or long.

Reach Spell wrote:
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long. A reach spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level for each increase in range category. For example, a spell with a range of touch increased to long range uses up a spell slot three levels higher. Spells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks.

There's no such thing as a "ranged touch spell" as a range category. There are spells (that are in a defined range category) that require a ranged touch attack. I know it seems like a language nitpick but it is important. Because otherwise you are creating a range category that doesn't exist. Which in turn affects other rules (like what spell turning can affect.)

The Exchange

Actually, Diego, let's leave aside the Reach Spell metamagic for a moment.

Does spell turning work on force hook charge? How about deafening song bolt?

Spoiler:
Those are both close range spells that have targets and require a range touch attack. Now going back to the metamagic - if you use Reach Spell on shocking grasp (for one spell slot level) it becomes a close range spell with a target that requires a range touch attack.

Liberty's Edge

Belafon wrote:

Actually, Diego, let's leave aside the Reach Spell metamagic for a moment.

Does spell turning work on force hook charge? How about deafening song bolt?

** spoiler omitted **

Those are both close range spells that have targets and require a range touch attack. Now going back to the metamagic - if you use Reach Spell on shocking grasp (for one spell slot level) it becomes a close range spell with a target that requires a range touch attack.

Spell Turning and Meteor Swarm

For both spells there is a target line and the target is the creature with spell turning, so the spell is turned back on the caster.

Re-checking the text of spell turning, it says "also fails to stop touch range spells", so, if the range change and it isn't "touch" anymore, Spell turning should work if the Target line allows it.

"Target creature touched" targets a creature, so Spell turning should work.

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