Good or evil doesn't matter, but which deity might continue to give divine powers to a follower who has the explicit goal of one day usurping their god?
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Gorum would welcome the challenge.
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Ma boy Caedan Caelian!
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Milani!
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Usurp implies taking without right.
In the case of good deities, I don't see them being aligned with someone who is planning to take something from someone who rightfully has it. Like, that's just s%!$ evil people do, so they wouldn't normally be worshipping a good deity.
That said, I could totally see a lot of gods supporting an individual that wants to rival them, or perhaps take a role as a deity of a more hyper-specific part of an existing deity's purview.
But a deity that supports someone stealing their godhood and role from them....I'm sure there are some but I don't know them. Even most evil deities aren't going to want to hear "I want to kill you and take your godhood" and be like "Oh that's cool, want to say some prayers and kill in my name before you do?"
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I don't think ANY being of essentially limitless power would grant even a smidgeon of it to someone who even internally aims to supplant or usurp them unless there is a Deity of unadulterated insanity out there who just DOES things and essentially lacks any semblance of free will...
Perhaps Groteus? After all, if their believers aim to replace him they'd simply be taking his place as the harbinger of the unavoidable and meaningless destruction and end of all creation. If he offered powers to his faithful and they overpower him then that would, as far as I can tell, be in following with his edict to destroy things that have outlived their usefulness.
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I don't think ANY being of essentially limitless power would grant even a smidgeon of it to someone who even internally aims to supplant or usurp them unless there is a Deity of unadulterated insanity out there who just DOES things and essentially lacks any semblance of free will...
Counterpoint: Pharasma is explicitly in-lore cultivating her own successor.
Now, that particular slot's filled, and Pharasma herself is unlikely to entertain another, but....
There's a difference between grooming her daughter to take over in the unlikely event of her untimely demise (she is all knowing after all) and condoning an upstart mortal who's stated goal is to kill her and take her place.
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There's a difference between grooming her daughter to take over in theunlikelyevent of heruntimelydemise (she is all knowing after all) and condoning an upstart mortal who's stated goal is to kill her and take her place.
FTFY.
Pharasma is grooming her daughter to replace her in the next instance of the multiverse. Pharasma is aware that there is a flaw in the existing universe, though not sure how or if it can be fixed, or maybe not even exactly what it is. But what her foreknowledge told her (before it become unreliable) was that the universe would end when the last soul is judge, and we believe Groteus will consume everything except the Survivor (planned to be Pharasma's daughter), who will take a thing from this multiverse to start the next one. Hopefully removing the flaw that Pharasma failed to.
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Yeah, her rightfully using her influence and will to raise an heir for herself is very different than granting powers to a moral who intends to kill/replace them as a deity.
Groteus though, the idea of him just flat out not giving a flying -WORD- about someone trying to take his place feels like it makes sense given that everything being meaningless is sort of part of his main schtick.
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Yeah, her rightfully using her influence and will to raise an heir for herself is very different than granting powers to a moral who intends to kill/replace them as a deity.
Groteus though, the idea of him just flat out not giving a flying -WORD- about someone trying to take his place feels like it makes sense given that everything being meaningless is sort of part of his main schtick.
My issue was with your use of "supplant". It *is* reasonable that there might be some non-crazy gods out there (like Pharasma) who decide that at some point they want to lay down the mantle and groom someone to replace them. It's not quite what this thread was talking about initially, but it is an important potential edge case
Indeed, I could absolutely imagine a god out there who chose to groom as their successor someone who thought they were rebelling.That also isn't necessarily crazy, if you start with the idea of a God who'd already decided that maybe they don't want to be a God forever.
A deity might welcome competition so that they don't become complacent.
Or as a way to incite their followers to fulfill their potential to the maximum.
I could see those as possibilities, but in the way that a level 20 character might think a level 1 character is a rival or wants to inspire the "level 0" entities around the level 1 to bring more to the table.
But I imagine that if they started to get close in power level, the deity is also going to dial back how much they are giving, if such an individual did harbor legitimate aims of usurpation.
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I could see an Oracle going for it though.
Wouldn't ascension and supplentation fall within irori's ideals of self perfection?
After all if she's striking down that supplanter she's admiting to being less perfect than them.
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Are we sure the deity gives the powers ?
Reasonably sure.
I mean, any class the has to follow a deity's edicts must be powered by them, because if they break those edicts they lose their power.
Why would that happen if the deity didn't control/grant the power in the first place?
I mean, perhaps the deity isn't the source. Perhaps their is a divine font of power and deities have learned to tap directly into it. And they grant a portion of that power to mortals who follow their rules. So rather than being the source of the power, perhaps they are more like an easy path to that power for mortals...but they still operate the valve that controls the flow.
So the deity might not be the river, but they are at least the water company. And without the water company, you don't have easy access to water. Sure, you could maybe go to the source yourself. But you don't live there, and it's not close. And it may not be the cleanest of water, since the water company goes through the trouble of cleaning it for everyone and you're just dipping a bucket in the river.
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Good or evil doesn't matter, but which deity might continue to give divine powers to a follower who has the explicit goal of one day usurping their god?
If the deity gives the power then they can reclaim it. So I don't think a deity cares about that.
I hardly see lawful deities loving such thing as "usurping". But I think chaotic deities wouldn't care much and evil deities will certainly consider that positively. After all, they certainly got their power by usurping a deity themselves so it's normal for their followers to have such fantasies.
Asmodeus: As long as you've filed the correct paperwork that is. He has an edict to "negotiate contracts to your best advantage" and an anathema against breaking a contract. It better be one heck of a contract though. ;)
Good or evil doesn't matter, but which deity might continue to give divine powers to a follower who has the explicit goal of one day usurping their god?
Other than Gorum (genius answer, by the way), I would say any Evil deity would, at the very least, tolerate it. After all, that's how Evil working with Evil functions a lot of the time, and it's no different when an Evil regime loses its leader (or in this case, when a Religion loses its god); it creates a power vacuum, and someone, or something, will fill that void eventually.
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Asmodeus: As long as you've filed the correct paperwork that is. He has an edict to "negotiate contracts to your best advantage" and an anathema against breaking a contract. It better be one heck of a contract though. ;)
According to my intel, this mortal is an adventurer. Adventurers have 8.76465% chance to die during the month. As I reclaim the soul while the contract is in effect, this one-month contract is actually worth 8.76465% of this soul. And all of that for a tiny service... Let's add a few thousand gold pieces for them to know that Asmodeus is incredibly generous.
I love infernal contracts because they are so obviously flawed.
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I had actually considered a cleric who worshipped Shyka, but sincerely believed they would one day become Shyka themself. It's built into the deity explicitly that they are many beings reincarnated and travelling through time.
I had actually considered a cleric who worshipped Shyka, but sincerely believed they would one day become Shyka themself. It's built into the deity explicitly that they are many beings reincarnated and travelling through time.
I would say though that this does not fall into the category or rebellious or that of an usurper.
Rather, it seems intentionally supported by the dogma of the faith. And the exact nature of Shyka is unknown, it's unclear what happens to any one instance of Shyka only that throughout time what appear to be different instances are encountered. It is possible that Shyka is a composite being, as individuals reach a point they join a collective consciousness and Shyka changes appearance to suit their whim.
Either way, I wouldn't say such a character or deity supports the idea that the OP was asking about.
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I took it directly from the pathfinder wiki entry on archdevils. So unless I misread or that entry is wrong.Hmm, considering that the archdevils are quite literally constantly scheming against Asmodeus and each other.I'm pretty sure that's a Forgotten Realms thing, not a Pathfinder Hells thing.
*checks*
That line is from the 3.5 setting book, so yeah.
Iomedae I think ?
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Any demon lord. I mean, it is just an implied part of their hierarchal relationships. "I'm willing to follow you for however long it takes for me to find a good chance to stab you in the back and rob your blind".
There are also the dark tapestry. Mostly due to general apathy towards you everything you ever do, hope, dream, or accomplish. Crushing you underfoot has nothing to do with rewards or punishment, and you are a fool for trying to believe otherwise.
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Most deities that would empower such a would-be usurper very likely would stop short of actually letting the usurper use their divine powers in their final confrontation, except for the extremely Lawful ones maybe, if there are rules about this.
So the usurper better have their own sources of power for that final fight.
And a reminder from Marvel Comics' Athena : "First rule of deicide : do not miss."
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3.5 Golarion is still Golarion, just like PF1 Golarion is still Golarion. Specially given that it has not been contradicted. Ex: Baphomet plotting against Asmodeus (Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth).I took it directly from the pathfinder wiki entry on archdevils. So unless I misread or that entry is wrong.Hmm, considering that the archdevils are quite literally constantly scheming against Asmodeus and each other.I'm pretty sure that's a Forgotten Realms thing, not a Pathfinder Hells thing.*checks*
That line is from the 3.5 setting book, so yeah.
Babhomet is demon lord not archdevil though
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Chances are that the source deity would remove the power long before the final fight. No reason to give a stray servant power if they aren't going to do as you say.Most deities that would empower such a would-be usurper very likely would stop short of actually letting the usurper use their divine powers in their final confrontation, except for the extremely Lawful ones maybe, if there are rules about this.
So the usurper better have their own sources of power for that final fight.
And a reminder from Marvel Comics' Athena : "First rule of deicide : do not miss."
Curiosity ?
As long as the servant avoids the anathema, does it really matter ?
Chances are that the source deity would remove the power long before the final fight. No reason to give a stray servant power if they aren't going to do as you say.Most deities that would empower such a would-be usurper very likely would stop short of actually letting the usurper use their divine powers in their final confrontation, except for the extremely Lawful ones maybe, if there are rules about this.
So the usurper better have their own sources of power for that final fight.
And a reminder from Marvel Comics' Athena : "First rule of deicide : do not miss."
On the other hand, is it something they can really do?
When I see that Oracles are able to steal divine power from deities, I wonder if the deity giving power is a proper description of the process or just an approximate description of it. Is the deity really able to tailor the power they give to each of their follower? Or does the follower faith alone can generate the link and the deity just has to live with it?
It's an honest question, I don't know Golarion's cosmology a lot.
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Oracles are different because the Deity essentially tries to foresee what would happen for their long-term plans if they hook a free agent up directly to the power grid. Clerics are more like household appliances that can be turned off and on at will.
At least in every game I've ever played, a cleric very much can have their power retracted if they fail their god. They can find a new god, but that doesn't mean they get to keep their spells and stuff.
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I've always seen Oracles as being infused with power, a parcel given by the deity for its own unfathomable purposes. The Oracle itself might not even known which divinity cursed them and they might worship someone entirely different. Once given, an Oracle's powers can't be taken back, this is indicated by the lack of Anathema and edict.
Clerics on the other hand know EXACTLY which divinity they worship. There is a covenant between them that the cleric is supposed to foster the divinity's agenda in the world and act, in whatever flawed ways mortals can, as the voice of that divinity upon the mortal realm. Being the direct representatives, they are beholden to the divinity's agenda and their power can be stripped directly.
In my necros of Urgathoa group, there's a Catfolk Bones Oracle and a Human Cleric of Urgathoa. The common understanding is that the Cleric worships Urgathoa, but Urgathoa worships the Oracle. (In the same way that dogs worship humans, but humans worship cats)
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PF1 Mythic heavily implied that the power that comes from the deities to their servants does not belong to them but comes from a source of power that is usually filtered by the deities but that IIRC the Hierophant could access directly.
However, the description of the Cleric in PF2 indeed states quite strongly that the power is granted by the deity.
I did entertain the idea that, as long as the Cleric worshipped them and respected their anathemas, the deity could not cut them from their Divine power, but that seems really not the case.
Better to switch deity, I guess.
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It is also important to remember that the mortal fervently worshipping the deity, and the deity wanting to grant them Divine powers, is not enough for the mortal to become a Cleric or a Champion. Their personalities must also be in synch enough, as described by their alignment being one that their deity allows.
Otherwise, they must be an Oracle.
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To be honest, the narrative that deities are giving power to oracles has always bothered me.
I would have much preferred that oracles just be some sort of cosmic accident where they accidentally get a spark of divine power.
I otherwise have trouble agreeing that the plethora of deities would give away power without any control. Some deities might be into that, but I think most wouldn't.
No, in my games its more accidental cosmic forces imbues you with power (as an Oracle).