Which Deity would most likely condone a rebellious cleric?


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Liberty's Edge

The deity might want to directly grant power to the mortal, but the dissonance between their worldviews (mortal's alignment not allowed for a Cleric of the deity) warps the link and ends up in an Oracle.


The Raven Black wrote:
The deity might want to directly grant power to the mortal, but the dissonance between their worldviews (mortal's alignment not allowed for a Cleric of the deity) warps the link and ends up in an Oracle.

I just personally have a hard time in agreeing with that. The world, nay the universe, is vast. What makes this one individual (who is likely a level 0/1 commoner) important enough to bother investing power to instead of the likely many devotees of their religion?

Like I get that it's the premise of the game, that adventurers are special by default and that could work okay if oracles were very very rare but they're not presented as being specifically more rare than other classes.

Golarion deities aren't all knowing, so it's not like they can see "oh, this person is going to be important and I need to give them this power to accomplish this thing". Maybe Pharasma could in the past, but she's been losing her capabilities in the realm of foretelling.

I dunno, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Liberty's Edge

Note that it is only one possible backstory for the creation of a given Oracle. There are many, many others that do not need to directly involve any deity.


The Raven Black wrote:
Note that it is only one possible backstory for the creation of a given Oracle. There are many, many others that do not need to directly involve any deity.

I understand that, I just wish that one wasn't really an option. Narratively, as a GM I don't support that kind of story because it makes the gods not make sense to me (unless I'm running some sort of prophesized hero storyline).

Wayfinders

Claxon wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Note that it is only one possible backstory for the creation of a given Oracle. There are many, many others that do not need to directly involve any deity.
I understand that, I just wish that one wasn't really an option. Narratively, as a GM I don't support that kind of story because it makes the gods not make sense to me (unless I'm running some sort of prophesized hero storyline).

Slightly Off Topic:
To me, it makes the gods flawed, which I like. It doesn't make them any less powerful or intelligent, but it does make them characters, which is part of why I love Pathfinder's deities so much. Phenomenal cosmic power doesn't stop you from having the odd whim; it just makes those whims much more impactful to the lives of others. It also brings them decidedly closer to the story, which I personally like but understand that not everyone would prefer.

Some ideas:

Shelyn sees true beauty in a mortal soul and, heart consumed with love, can't help but let loose a flutter of power to help them on their way.

Arazni sees a devout knight of Iomedae dying alone in the Gravelands and, while filled with contempt for his noble, unflinching sacrifice, refuses to let him fall without giving him a way to fight back.

Casandalee decides to outsource some of her divine calculations to a dedicated (and especially bright) follower but drops a bracket somewhere, inflicting her with the Curse of Torrented Knowledge.

Nethys... Has one of his days. You know how it is.

As to the actual question, I feel that Gorum is a good answer as said above, partially because he wouldn't actually believe that this puny mortal could take him. Irori jumps to mind too, but I feel that he'd be more likely to retract his power not out of any moral quibble but because he wants to be beaten fair and square, not giving any quarter.


AlastarOG wrote:
I've always seen Oracles as being infused with power, a parcel given by the deity for its own unfathomable purposes. The Oracle itself might not even known which divinity cursed them and they might worship someone entirely different. Once given, an Oracle's powers can't be taken back, this is indicated by the lack of Anathema and edict.

I view oracles as people that have had divine power violently shoved into their skull like a rusty railroad spike. With all the complications that implies.

And taking back that power back is as complicated as removing the railroad spike years later after the skull has healed over it.

Heck, this might be the entire point of why the god gave you the power. Maybe they wanted to hide something, and you were a convenient lockbox.

It might not even be divine power that belonged to the god that made you an oracle. And you have to worry about the original owner deciding they want to dig in your skull of the buried treasure.


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Claxon wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
The deity might want to directly grant power to the mortal, but the dissonance between their worldviews (mortal's alignment not allowed for a Cleric of the deity) warps the link and ends up in an Oracle.

I just personally have a hard time in agreeing with that. The world, nay the universe, is vast. What makes this one individual (who is likely a level 0/1 commoner) important enough to bother investing power to instead of the likely many devotees of their religion?

Like I get that it's the premise of the game, that adventurers are special by default and that could work okay if oracles were very very rare but they're not presented as being specifically more rare than other classes.

Golarion deities aren't all knowing, so it's not like they can see "oh, this person is going to be important and I need to give them this power to accomplish this thing". Maybe Pharasma could in the past, but she's been losing her capabilities in the realm of foretelling.

I dunno, it just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think the setting considers that deities have complete control on the power they give. They can give power to the Oracle genuinely thinking they're one of their devotees because the Oracle cheesed a way to look like one (like stealing the id of a dead Cleric).

As you say, Golarion Deities are not all knowing.


SuperBidi wrote:

I don't think the setting considers that deities have complete control on the power they give. They can give power to the Oracle genuinely thinking they're one of their devotees because the Oracle cheesed a way to look like one (like stealing the id of a dead Cleric).

As you say, Golarion Deities are not all knowing.

Perhaps that is my main hangup, I do consider deities to be in complete control of the power they grant. Hence why they can sever the power of clerics.

Short of specific prestige classes (I know there was one in 3.5 but don't remember the name) that specifically stole divine power by siphoning a bit from the power transfer between gods and clerics. But it was an active action on the characters part, not some passive reception.


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Claxon wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

I don't think the setting considers that deities have complete control on the power they give. They can give power to the Oracle genuinely thinking they're one of their devotees because the Oracle cheesed a way to look like one (like stealing the id of a dead Cleric).

As you say, Golarion Deities are not all knowing.

Perhaps that is my main hangup, I do consider deities to be in complete control of the power they grant. Hence why they can sever the power of clerics.

Barbarians lose their powers when they perform an Anathema and their power comes from noone but them.

I don't have the feeling that every Champion and every Cleric has their deity looking at them near constantly. I feel that the world has space for Oracles stealing power from a deity, from concurrent sects inside the same faith, for destructive power struggle inside churches and such things. If the deity was really aware of all their devotees' actions such things would not happen as they would be able to stop any wrong action by just severing their power momentarily.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The outer gods and great old ones lack anathema and generally don't care what their followers do with the power given to them, so they seem like an entire list of deities that would condone such a rebellious cleric.

EDIT: Then again, what would there be to rebel against?


SuperBidi wrote:
Claxon wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

I don't think the setting considers that deities have complete control on the power they give. They can give power to the Oracle genuinely thinking they're one of their devotees because the Oracle cheesed a way to look like one (like stealing the id of a dead Cleric).

As you say, Golarion Deities are not all knowing.

Perhaps that is my main hangup, I do consider deities to be in complete control of the power they grant. Hence why they can sever the power of clerics.

Barbarians lose their powers when they perform an Anathema and their power comes from noone but them.

I don't have the feeling that every Champion and every Cleric has their deity looking at them near constantly. I feel that the world has space for Oracles stealing power from a deity, from concurrent sects inside the same faith, for destructive power struggle inside churches and such things. If the deity was really aware of all their devotees' actions such things would not happen as they would be able to stop any wrong action by just severing their power momentarily.

I don't consider the barbarian example to be relevant, and it's a change I'm not a fan of in PF2.

I will agree deities are not constantly looking at their followers, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about a deity being able to remove the power they grant at any time they choose for whatever reason they choose. I'm simply saying, to me, deities are not going to invest power in a being they don't have control over, or at least the ability to remove their power from.

Liberty's Edge

Even deities can have no obviously better choice. Or it can happen by accident.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Abadar: "You see, this is an At-Will Divine Spellcasting Church. You have the ability, at any time, to seek new Divine Patronage anywhere, and I, for any reason not protected by Divine Mandate, can cease your divine empowerment."


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Claxon wrote:
Short of specific prestige classes (I know there was one in 3.5 but don't remember the name) that specifically stole divine power by siphoning a bit from the power transfer between gods and clerics. But it was an active action on the characters part, not some passive reception.

The 3.5 Ur-priest ran all of its power off of stealing from the gods, but from what I can recall it wasn't sipping off the transfer from god to priest. It was just outright theft of divine power. I know that the AD&D 2nd ed Sha'ir did the same by proxy, when it went to cast divine spells, though that bit was removed from the 3.x version.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Short of specific prestige classes (I know there was one in 3.5 but don't remember the name) that specifically stole divine power by siphoning a bit from the power transfer between gods and clerics. But it was an active action on the characters part, not some passive reception.
The 3.5 Ur-priest ran all of its power off of stealing from the gods, but from what I can recall it wasn't sipping off the transfer from god to priest. It was just outright theft of divine power. I know that the AD&D 2nd ed Sha'ir did the same by proxy, when it went to cast divine spells, though that bit was removed from the 3.x version.

Ur Priest is what I was thinking of


Ng.

The problem is of course, nobody knows what a cleric rebelling against the will of Ng would even look or act like, but Ng would almost certainly not censure such a thing.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Ng.

The problem is of course, nobody knows what a cleric rebelling against the will of Ng would even look or act like, but Ng would almost certainly not censure such a thing.

CG.

"Yeah! Fight the Man. ...wait... I am the man. Huh."

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