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As I read fabricate the material component is also the target of the spell, so false focus won't help.
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Create Armaments is a Conjuration [creation] spell, literally creating something from nothing... well, not "nothing", but out of nothing more than the magical energies of the spell, itself.
Fabricate is a Transmutation spell, which converts a target sum of material into something made out of that same material.
You could, absolutely, use Create Armaments (or a wand of Iron Stake) to get materials for Fabricate. Lol. Assuming you have access to those spells, that is. Brigh's 2nd Exalted boon gives you Fabricate 1/day as an SLA, but you still have you meet the spell's "Target" requirements. The material components just happen to be the same as whatever your target is... being able to skip 100gp worth of material components with False Focus in no way satifies the spell's "need" for a suitable target to function.
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To add to the above statements… A generous GM might alot you an extra 100GP worth of value to the final product therefore letting you use false focus to effectively stretch the raw resources you started with a little bit… but in the case of fabricate it won’t ever outright negate the material cost… getting an extra 100gp worth of value to your materials is purely up to GM discretion, since per RAW it isn’t supported.
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False Focus is meant to be a divine version of "Eschew Materials" allowing Divine Casters to use their Divine Focus as their material component while attempting to cast Arcane spells, and Fabricate is meant to create/craft finished products/items from raw materials, and the required raw materials have a gold cost for game balance.
If a GM were to allow this to work (and he shouldn't), it invites the slippery slope of a "Level 9 Wizard Sweatshop" mass producing <100g products/items for free every in-game day. I'm not suggesting that this is what you're trying to do, but allowing this to work invites the potential for abuse. Because even if you only cast Fabricate once per day for a month, that's 3000g-- so, what if you cast it twice, or thrice a day? A level 10 with a 5th lvl Pearl of Power (25,000g) could cast Fabricate four times per day, so what happens during a month of downtime? That's 12,000g in a month, for free. Keep this up for a 2nd month and now you can afford another 5th level Pearl of Power. What if you took the Leadership feat and you're out adventuring while your cohorts/followers are casting Fabricate once, twice, or thrice per day?
Even if you do lawyer the rules in such a way to allow this, you still shouldn't.
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False Focus is meant to be a divine version of "Eschew Materials" allowing Divine Casters to use their Divine Focus as their material component while attempting to cast Arcane spells, and Fabricate is meant to create/craft finished products/items from raw materials, and the required raw materials have a gold cost for game balance.
While I agree with your overall argument, I think you meant arcane and not divine. False focus works on arcane spells.
Razmirian "priests" (a sorcerer archetype) get it at level 1 with the False Piety ability. It is meant to be a way for an arcane spellcaster to simulate being a priest.
The question is if a Razmiran holy symbol counts as a divine implement. After all, Razmir isn't a god.
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Technically False Focus is actually a stronger version of Eschew Materials. Both feats work equally on Arcane and Divine spells… Divine casters don’t need it as often since many divine spells have M/DF as a component allowing them to substitute the material component for their Divine Focus regardless of material component cost… but for the spells that lack the /DF portion, the feats are still quite useful to divine casters… for arcane the equivalent component format of F/M is almost never used which is what makes these feats invaluable to arcane casters.
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False Focus is meant to be a divine version of "Eschew Materials" allowing Divine Casters to use their Divine Focus as their material component while attempting to cast Arcane spells, and Fabricate is meant to create/craft finished products/items from raw materials, and the required raw materials have a gold cost for game balance.While I agree with your overall argument, I think you meant arcane and not divine. False focus works on arcane spells.
Razmirian "priests" (a sorcerer archetype) get it at level 1 with the False Piety ability. It is meant to be a way for an arcane spellcaster to simulate being a priest.
The question is if a Razmiran holy symbol counts as a divine implement. After all, Razmir isn't a god.
No, I meant divine. Maybe you should read it twice. Maybe even a third time if you need to.
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No, I meant divine. Maybe you should read it twice. Maybe even a third time if you need to.False Focus is meant to be a divine version of "Eschew Materials" allowing Divine Casters to use their Divine Focus as their material component while attempting to cast Arcane spells, and Fabricate is meant to create/craft finished products/items from raw materials, and the required raw materials have a gold cost for game balance.While I agree with your overall argument, I think you meant arcane and not divine. False focus works on arcane spells.
Razmirian "priests" (a sorcerer archetype) get it at level 1 with the False Piety ability. It is meant to be a way for an arcane spellcaster to simulate being a priest.
The question is if a Razmiran holy symbol counts as a divine implement. After all, Razmir isn't a god.
Under the feat it states: "Normal: A divine focus has no effect when used as a component in arcane spells."
This tells me that the feat is exclusive to arcane spells and has no effect on divine spells as they already have divine focus, you know, the not false focus.
Edit: Forgot to make my point lol
Since Divine casters don't get access to Arcane spells the feat would be impossible if not pointless to take as a cleric for example.
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Under the feat it states: "Normal: A divine focus has no effect when used as a component in arcane spells."
This tells me that the feat is exclusive to arcane spells and has no effect on divine spells as they already have divine focus, you know, the not false focus.
Edit: Forgot to make my point lol
Since Divine casters don't get access to Arcane spells the feat would be impossible if pointless to take as a cleric.
You can use a divine focus to cast arcane spells.
False Focus is meant to be a divine version of "Eschew Materials" allowing Divine Casters to use their Divine Focus as their material component while attempting to cast Arcane spells
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Under the feat it states: "Normal: A divine focus has no effect when used as a component in arcane spells."
This tells me that the feat is exclusive to arcane spells and has no effect on divine spells as they already have divine focus, you know, the not false focus.
Edit: Forgot to make my point lol
Since Divine casters don't get access to Arcane spells the feat would be impossible if pointless to take as a cleric.
You can use a divine focus to cast arcane spells.False Focus is meant to be a divine version of "Eschew Materials" allowing Divine Casters to use their Divine Focus as their material component while attempting to cast Arcane spells
What arcane spells does a divine caster get access to?
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What arcane spells does a divine caster get access to?
Mystic Theurges and Razmiran Priests (sorcerer archetype that uses a Divine Focus for arcane spells) immediately come to mind. 3pp False Arcanists also use Divine Focus for arcane spells.
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Mystic Theurges and Razmiran Priests (sorcerer archetype that uses a Divine Focus for arcane spells) immediately come to mind. 3pp False Arcanists also use Divine Focus for arcane spells.
What arcane spells does a divine caster get access to?
Razmiran priests are still arcane casters, whose spells register as arcane. Otherwise the benefits they get to try and use Divine spells from magic items would be useless. Their entire gimic is that they are PRETENDING to be divine casters.
When a Mystic Theurge casts spells gained from their original class those spells are treated as arcane or divine depending on which class the spell is prepared from.
Whether a spell is arcane or divine is determined by the class that you got the spell from, not the spell.
Example:
20th level character with 10 levels in cleric and 10 levels in Wizard. I chose the Magic domain for my cleric which gives me Arcane Eye, a spell not normally on my cleric spell list. I also have Arcane Eye in my wizard spell book.I can cast arcane spells as a wizard so I qualify for the feat False Focus.
for the sake of argument lets say arcane eye has a component cost of 20gp and I have a silver divine focus worth 25 silver.
I prepare Arcane Eye in one of my Wizard spell slots and also in one of my Cleric spell slots.
If I use the Wizard spell, I can ignore the 25 gp cost because the feat works on arcane spells.
If I use the Cleric spell, I have to pay the 25 gp cost because the feat does not work on divine spells.
Example:
I'm a 10th level cleric with the Magic Domain. Dispite Arcane Eye being on my spell list it is still considered a divine spell and as such I can't even take the feat False Focus.
Edit:
3pp has no bearing on the game rules.
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Yep, I know how it works. Are you in any way suggesting that a Mystic Theurge cannot use False Focus to use their Divine Focus when casting their arcane spells?
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Yep, I know how it works. Are you in any way suggesting that a Mystic Theurge cannot use False Focus to use their Divine Focus when casting their arcane spells?
Your argument is that it helps divine casters cast arcane spells, but strictly divine casters can't even take the feat. It is only useful for Arcane casters.
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Your argument is that it helps divine casters cast arcane spells, but strictly divine casters can't even take the feat. It is only useful for Arcane casters.
Actually, my argument was that one should not use False Focus and Fabricate as an endless source of income that can unbalance WBL. Diego is a charlatan who tries to nitpick everything people say on this forum as some form of alpha nerd cyber bullying campaign, so when he tried to correct me I wasn't having any of it. And that's because Mystic Theurges are divine casters and arcane casters who can use False Focus to use their Divine Focus to cast arcane spells cheaper, and Razmiran Priests are "false divine casters" in their lore, so technically I'm not wrong even when I said the words "divine caster". And for whatever reason, you've decided to hop on this wagon as well.
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Your argument is that it helps divine casters cast arcane spells, but strictly divine casters can't even take the feat. It is only useful for Arcane casters.Actually, my argument was that one should not use False Focus and Fabricate as an endless source of income that can unbalance WBL. Diego is a charlatan who tries to nitpick everything people say on this forum as some form of alpha nerd cyber bullying campaign, so when he tried to correct me I wasn't having any of it. And that's because Mystic Theurges are divine casters and arcane casters who can use False Focus to use their Divine Focus to cast arcane spells cheaper, and Razmiran Priests are "false divine casters" in their lore, so technically I'm not wrong even when I said the words "divine caster". And for whatever reason, you've decided to hop on this wagon as well.
I apologize, It wasn't my intent to upset or pile on. I come to these forums to ask questions, debate and be told I'm wrong, or provide evidence to prove my point of view because that is what I find fun. However it is clear that I need to take a step back and re-establish that not everyone on here is looking for the same interaction that I am.
Again sorry if I came off hostile in any way. I hope you have a wonderful day.
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Read the feat:
False Focus
Source Inner Sea Magic pg. 10
You can use a divine focus to cast arcane spells.Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 1 rank, ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of that divine focus (maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that component. For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material components for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than the value of the divine focus, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal.
Normal: A divine focus has no effect when used as a component in arcane spells.
The only (weak) argument you can make to say that it works with divine spells is that the first row of the benefits doesn't limit it to arcane spells. But all the other text limits it.
Nice ad hominem attack, BTW. Flagged.
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Read the feat:
False Focus
Source Inner Sea Magic pg. 10
You can use a divine focus to cast arcane spells.Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 1 rank, ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of that divine focus (maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that component. For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material components for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than the value of the divine focus, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal.
Normal: A divine focus has no effect when used as a component in arcane spells.
The only (weak) argument you can make to say that it works with divine spells is that the first row of the benefits doesn't limit it to arcane spells. But all the other text limits it.
Nice ad hominem attack, BTW. Flagged.
I never said it works for divine spells. learn to read charlatan.
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DIVINE SPELLS
Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less f lashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.
Razmir
The Living God
...
In truth, Razmir’s religion is built around a phenomenal lie: Razmir is an extremely powerful arcane spellcaster, not a god. His cult relies on obscure arcane spells, secret magic items, folk medicine, and the hired services of actual divine spellcasters. The nation of Razmiran is remote enough that most people along the Inner Sea have no compelling reason to question whether Razmir is truly one of the Ascended.
Razmiran Priest
Source Inner Sea Magic pg. 38
The so-called “priests” of Razmir are magical charlatans—missionary servants of the Living God who spread his fervent devotion wherever they travel. Altered by Razmir’s magic, he can perform feats impossible for other sorcerers. A Razmiran priest has the following class features.
Sorcerers that cast arcane spells. They have stuff that allows them to use divine magic items and activate them without expending charges, but they stay arcane casters.
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You are not the only one speaking here. It is one of the reasons why I posted something directed specifically at you only in the last row.
Technically False Focus is actually a stronger version of Eschew Materials. Both feats work equally on Arcane and Divine spells
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You are not the only one speaking here. It is one of the reasons why I posted something directed specifically at you only in the last row.
Technically False Focus is actually a stronger version of Eschew Materials. Both feats work equally on Arcane and Divine spells
It can be though. The benefit doesn’t make any mention of only working for arcane. The EXAMPLE uses an arcane caster, and the flavor text says arcane, but the actual feat rules text does not specify. Everything after “for example” is an example of use, NOT RULES TEXT.
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You can use a divine focus to cast arcane spells.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 1 rank, ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of that divine focus (maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that component. For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material components for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than the value of the divine focus, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal.
Normal: A divine focus has no effect when used as a component in arcane spells.
The feat does not provide a material component it alters the spell, so it uses a divine focus instead. A spell modified by this feat no longer has a material component.
What the feat was designed to do was to allow an arcane caster to appear to cast a spell like a divine caster. With it an arcane caster can seem like he is a cleric or other divine caster to the casual observer.
As far as using it with fabricate it will not work for one reason. Both the material component and the target of fabricate are the same thing. While False Focus does allow you to ignore the material component it does not allow you to ignore the target. Since you do not have a legitimate target, the spell fails.
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As to using False Focus on a divine spell the very first sentence in the feat specifies it allows you to use a divine focus to cast arcane spells. That is well before the For Example and does make it pretty clear it does not work on divine spells. A divine caster by definition does not cast arcane spells. Even A Mystic Theurge has separate divine and arcane caster levels.
When a domain, mystery, bloodline or any other ability adds a spell to your spell list the spell is considered to be of the same type as your normal spells. The cleric with fire domain cast fire ball as a divine spell, not an arcane spell.
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The lack of needing the material components of the spell does not automatically make Fabricate fail... Fabricate can be had as an SLA by any player that takes Deific Obedience [Brigh] and has enough HD to gain access to the 3rd Exalted boon. So avoiding material compinents isn't an issue so long as you have the suitable target. The material components of the spell are not the same as the target... they have to be of the same material, and cost equal to the raw materials targeted... but it doesn't say, or even imply, that the two sums of material are, in fact, the same sum of material. Now, that would make sense [as much sense as magic can make, anyways], but it is not RAW that Fabricate's target and material components are the same thing. Skipping the material components is possible without skipping the target.
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You could have separate material component and targets and the spell will work, but that also eliminates the reason for using False Focus. The Idea behind using False Focus on Fabricate is to be able to cast it at no cost. Since you would still need to purchase the target materials you end up spending the same amount as if you purchased the raw materials as both the material component and the target.
Basically, False Focus does not allow Fabricate to be used to create wealth out of nothing.
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Sorry for the thread necro but I've been going thru some older posts and came across this one and couldn't resist the urge to put in my two cents.I'll start by pointing out that Voodistmonk noted that you could use Create Armaments to produce the necessary base materials for Fabricate and if everything created with the spell costs 100gp or less then False Focus can absolutely get you the base materials at no cost. False Focus and Create Armaments literally allows you to create wealth out of nothing. But it gets worse. Create Armaments allows you to create items out of rare or unusual materials. "You can create items made of rare or unusual materials if you include a bit of that material as an additional material component when you cast the spell, but cannot create cold iron items with this spell." Since only cold iron is excluded by the spell this means GOLD is a valid material to create armaments with as long as "a bit" of gold is supplied. according to Ultimate Equipment 1 pound of gold costs 50gp. I would think 1 pound would count as "a bit". According to Ultimate Equipment items created out of pure gold cost 10 times that of the base item and weigh 1.5 times as much. That means that a solid gold Meteor Hammer would cost 100gp (free with False Focus) and weigh 15 lbs of pure gold. A level 9 wizard with 18 INT can cast create armaments 3 times per day netting 45 lbs of pure gold. when combined with a suit of padded cloth armor (5gp and 10 lbs) and a pair of leather boots (cost negligible) you have all the requisite materials for Full Plate. Said wizard can also cast Fabricate once per day so a set of gold Full Plate worth 15000gp (10 times cost) can be made every day at a cost of 155gp in base materials and sold for 7500gp. 7345gp pure profit every day. As far as I can tell this is 100% legit by RAW. False Focus can allow a player to break the in-game economy and if you are the GM you should definitely feel free to ban it in your games.
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That said False Focus isn't even the worst offender for breaking the in-game economy. I think the Gunsmithing Feat takes the Cake on that one. Any 1st level PC can take this feat and a rank in Craft(Alchemy) and create up to 1000gp worth of Black Powder per day at a cost of 100gp in raw materials and no craft check is necessary. they can then turn around and sell that black powder for half of its purchase price 500gp. 400gp pure profit daily at level 1. But again it gets worse. A truly enterprising PC can also take a rank in Profession(Teacher). They can then employ a Hireling (also from Ultimate Equipment) at a cost of 1-3sp per day. they can then use Profession(Teacher) to retrain their hireling in the Gunsmithing feat and craft alchemy (at the PCs cost of course) and have them make the Black powder for them. This can be repeated until they have an entire factory full of hirelings toiling away for pennies a day netting the PC 400gp each per day no craft checks required. If the PC is really enterprising they can set up some of their more promising hirelings in other towns and cities for a cut of their profits creating an entire Black Powder empire with them at the top. All paid for with starting wealth of a level 1 PC. Golarions economy is totally broken when you really look at it. Heck a lvl 20 alchemist with the philosophers stone discovery can turn 5000 lbs of lead into 50000gp worth of solid gold every month. its surprising gold isnt totally devalued on Golarion just because of this.
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The Black Powder works only if gunpowder weapons are emergent and gunpowder is rare, but, at that point, you haven't the buyers for your gunpowder. And cities have a market cap, you can't sell an infinite amount of stuff.
You can sell only a few charges every day.
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"a lvl 20 alchemist with the philosophers stone discovery can turn 5000 lbs of lead into 50000gp worth of solid gold every month"
Essentially he can get about 2,500,000 $ every month. At 20th level.
To who we can compare him in RL?
The ten highest-paid athletes in the world took home pretax gross earnings of $1.05 billion during the past 12 months, 28% more than last year’s top earners. The combined haul falls just a few million short of the $1.06 billion record set in 2018, the 12-month window in which boxer Floyd Mayweather earned $285 million, almost all of it from his 2017 pay-per-view fight with Conor McGregor.
An average of 105 million each. Our alchemist only makes 30 million in a year.
Dirigents?
Elon Musk was paid $23.5 billion in 2021.
30 million/year is what a top athlete or dirigent makes. Plenty of money, but we are speaking of a level 20 character, the top of the top, barring Mythic rules.
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Black powder (or any explosive) have many uses beyond its use in firearms. Anytime you might need something demolished it can be used. Even your average farmer can use black powder for clearing tree stumps out of a field but your primary customers would likely be governments. Black powder also has uses as an extra material component in spells. Firearms could also be made (again without any craft check) and sold at cost or below to increase demand. The powder can also be discounted as well to increase demand. There are many ways to grow a business for such a powerful technology. But the GM will of course be the final arbiter of how much this feat can be exploited. I was merely pointing out how feats like this can get out of hand if left unchecked.