Having been inspired by my playthrough of Dragon's Dogma with a Mystic Knight character, I want to translate said character into a Pathfinder character, and the closest analogue to Mystic Knight I can think of would be the Skirnir. However, the Skirnir archetype has some major changes that clearly create the need for a different approach than playing a normal magus.
In particular:
-Diminished spellcasting
-Spell combat delayed to level 8 and using the shield hand to cast a spell makes you lose your shield bonus to AC.
-Losing spell recall
This makes me think that the approach to playing a Skirnir might rely on some of the following strategies:
- Prioritizing use of arcane pool and buff spells before drawing a weapon alongside the shield, then two-weapon fighting with scimitar and shield bash.
- Relying more on pearls of power, wands, and staves to conserve/regain spell slots.
- Throwing Magus arcana to regain some magus arcana used for enhancing.
- Using a ring of arcane mastery
- Having a shield spell active. It doesn't stack with the held shield, but would apply when you would lose AC from spell combat or other reasons (like fighting creatures with incorporeal touch attacks.
- Using the weaponwand spell to merge a wand into your shield or a weapon, allowing you to cast spells from a wand while also having a weapon and shield out (wand of frigid touch with wand mastery arcana comes to mind).
However, I seem to have hit a brick wall beyond this regarding where a skirnir should focus their advancement.
Advice I could use includes:
- Feats and magus arcana choices
- Magic items
- General gameplay strategies (how to work around the limitations of shielded spell combat)
- Possible alternative classes that would closely mimic a Dragon's Dogma-esque mystic knight.
Note: The character is not human, so no bonus feat at 1st-level.
Ability Scores rolled (after racial adjustments)
Str 19, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 10
More-so planning out a character build from 1-20 than actually using this character for a campaign. I like to brainstorm potential characters to use in future games and I like to plan out their builds ahead of time.
It is worth noting that I want to use a heavy shield, and that I wanted to be able to enhance the shield in combat, like the Mystic Knight in Dragon's Dogma.
My thoughts early-level were to take Improved Shield Bash at 1st-level and use a spiked heavy shield as a primary weapon with nothing in the off-hand so I can cast spells. If I need a slashing weapon or if I don't have any spells I want/need to cast, draw a scimitar and close to melee.
For other feat options, I was thinking Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting (so I can use Str to qualify for TWF feats and use one-handed weapons in both hands before I get Shield Master) feats, as well as Arcane Strike, Extra Arcane Pool, and of course Intensified Spell.
So after looking at Mystic Knight. It seems like you want Ring of Wizardry to get more spells, specially for multiple uses of Bladed Dash.
For feats you probably want Shielded Mage ASAP so you can cast with your shield in hand without suffering Spell Failure.
Skirnir don’t suffer arcane spell failure from shields
Sorcerous Shield (Ex): At 1st level, skirnirs are proficient with all types of shields, including tower shields, and do not suffer an arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while using a shield. They treat their magus levels as their fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for shield-related feats. This ability replaces spell combat.
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My thoughts early-level were to take Improved Shield Bash at 1st-level and use a spiked heavy shield as a primary weapon with nothing in the off-hand so I can cast spells.
Well, if you want to attack with your shield I recommend taking a different archetype so you retain spell combat. Feats to look out for are Shield Slam and Painful Collision. Hexcrafter, Eldritch Scion, and Mindblade are interesting archetypes here.
For all your feat and spell needs, check out the Magus guide.
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Since you are willing to start with no weapon (just a shield you can attack with), how willing are you to go without a weapon for your whole career? There are some interesting two-shield builds that are possible with the skirnir.
What book is Prodigious TWF from? I’m not familiar with it. Having said that - whatever it is, I’m not sure you need it. You already have enough Dex for TWF and Double Slice. You should be able to afford a Dex ioun stone by the time you have BAB +6 and a +6Str/+6Dex belt by BAB +11. Or just drop your 8th-level attribute point into Dex and then the ioun stone will get you all the way to Dex 19 and all the feats you will want.
How does your GM feel about the weapon building rules in Weapon Master’s handbook? If those are allowed you can make a shield that is far better for a Skirnir than anything else.
Lots to unpack here, much of which is quite helpful in both giving me ideas and jumpstarting my own brain:
I would prefer to avoid multiclassing if at all possible due to the lost arcane pool points and the lost spells per day if possible. I'd already be running the character on 1 less spell/spell level as is.
Economically speaking, pearls of power would be a LOT cheaper than a ring of wizardry on a per spell slot basis (1,000 gp per 1st-level slot vs. 20,000 for double 1st-level slots), especially since the ring of wizardry doubles the spell slots before bonus spells. A ring of protection and ring of arcane mastery (8 levels worth of arcane pool if stored in advance) would be better, I think.
Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting is a feat from Path of War, the main benefit from it with the given scores being able to use a one-handed weapon in the off-hand as though it were a light weapon (which means full Str to damage on both hands), though as mentioned, the Shield-Trained trait could work as I didn't have an alignment or deity in mind for the character yet.
I also spotted the Shield Bearer race trait (+1 damage to shield bash, the statistical equivalent of a dice increase from 1d6 to 1d8), which could easily be taken by having the Adopted social trait.
Technically speaking, a skirnir does get spell combat, just not until 8th-level, and I'm fine with getting spell combat a bit later.
The bull rushing shield feats didn't immediately grab my attention, mainly because I don't see much tactical advantage from it (except maybe pushing a foe into a dangerous spot like over a cliff or into lava). Any insight as to how Bull Rush could be used effectively?
I did spot Shield Snag (disarm) and Stumbling Bash (-2 AC), which might be better and could be gotten relatively early since Skirnir treat their magus level as fighter level for shield-related feats.
With regard to the Weapon Master's Handbook, the GMs I play with are actually more lenient than I am, so it's probably gonna be fair game. I'll have to look into that, since there's nothing against the rules about a bonded shield being custom-built. That being said, I think those rules only work for weapons, and shields are technically armor.
There is the Shield modification for a weapon, but a light shield just isn't big enough for the mental picture in mind. Was picturing more a Viking round shield, Greek aspis or a Roman scutum, rather than a targe, roundel, or heater shield.
Last thought, this would be kinda cheesing the rules as written, but theoretically I could get a mithral heavy shield for the bonded object (for no check penalty). Arcane bond states "Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material." Shields are listed under armor (even though they can be used as a weapon), and it doesn't say anything about a bonded shield's material in the skirnir archetype. Otherwise, I'd just have to change the bonded shield at a later level.
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Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting is a feat from Path of War, the main benefit from it with the given scores being able to use a one-handed weapon in the off-hand as though it were a light weapon (which means full Str to damage on both hands), though as mentioned, the Shield-Trained trait could work as I didn't have an alignment or deity in mind for the character yet.
I’m not that familiar with 3rd-party material. But I looked at this item on d20pfsrd and I’m not seeing how it gives you full Strength to damage with your off-hand weapon. You’d still need Double Slice.
I’m not that familiar with 3rd-party material. But I looked at this item on d20pfsrd and I’m not seeing how it gives you full Strength to damage with your off-hand weapon. You’d still need Double Slice.
Ah, you're right, I misinterpreted the feat, thinking it only affected the TWF penalties, but it straight up treats the one-handed as though it were light in your off-hand, meaning 1/2 Str to damage. Guess I can drop that feat and go for the Shield-Trained trait instead.
Fortunately, what constitutes the main hand for TWF is just whatever weapon you attack with first during the full attack.
Here's what the feat progression currently looks like now:
1st: Improved Shield Bash
3rd: Arcane Strike
5th: Shield Focus
Magus 5: Stumbling Bash
7th: Two-Weapon Fighting
9th: Shield Snag
11th: Improved Critical (scimitar)
Magus 11: Shield Slam
13th: Intensified Spell
15th: Shield Master
17th: Bashing Finish
Magus 17: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
19th:
Magus Arcana is still up in the air.
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The bull rushing shield feats didn't immediately grab my attention, mainly because I don't see much tactical advantage from it (except maybe pushing a foe into a dangerous spot like over a cliff or into lava). Any insight as to how Bull Rush could be used effectively?
Whenever you can push an enemy into anything else, it's a free prone, and Painful Collision adds nice damage. And then there's True Strike.
Whenever you can push an enemy into anything else, it's a free prone, and Painful Collision adds nice damage. And then there's True Strike.
Amazing. That first sentence alone is enough to convince me. xD
Hmm... the main problem in trying to implement Painful Collision into the build is the massive feat tax involved, requiring Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush. In order to incorporate that, I would have to give up a few feats in the current line-up.
Stumbling Bash is too good to give up (-2 AC on foe with a successful shield bash, which helps both me and any full BAB allies), so I need to keep that and its prerequisite of Shield Focus.
Intensified Spell is a staple of magus gameplay, so that needs to remain.
Shield Snag cannot be used at the same time as Shield Slam. So I could get rid of that. That's 1 feat opened up.
Arcane Strike isn't strictly necessary, but is a good use of swift action after I use arcane pool to enhance things for a bit of extra damage, and unlike Power Attack, doesn't cost accuracy. But then again, the accuracy penalty can be compensated for with Stumbling Bash and buff spells, and the damage is better.
Improved Critical (scimitar) and Bashing Finish synergize well to have a decent chance of an extra shield bash each round.
The main problem is that, sure, I could get Painful Collision, but it would end up being way too late in the game for the damage to be useful unless I were to delay most of my feats a couple levels. It's probably a better option for a character who has the feat slots to spare.
So ultimately, the changes I made to the above list would be replace Arcane Strike with Power Attack (which helps with swift action economy too), moved Shield Slam to 9th-level, removed Shield Snag, and moved Improved Critical to 11th-level bonus feat.
Does anyone have any possible suggestions to further improve this and fill out empty slots at 13th and 19th?
While intensified is a staple of Shocking Grasp/Fireball builds, do not feel beholden to take it as a feat when you can grab it as a metamagic rod. So do think about how many times a day you plan to use it.
Something, that really wasn't touched up but that is important is that TWF and Spell Combat cannot be done at the same time. They are both full round actions. So that should save you two feats if you don't plan to always use Spell Combat as soon as you get it. Remember that it stacks with Spellstrike.
In total that should give you 3 more feats to play with. If you go with Arcane Strike remember to get Riving Strike to boost your DC. In general the remaining feats can be pretty much whatever you want, since you mentioned Path of War might be good to see what feats they have that might compliment the Magus.
It's worth mentioning though that Two-Weapon Fighting is mandatory. It's needed in order to take Shield Slam, Shield Master, and Bashing Finish.
A metamagic rod for Intensify Spell would require a means to hold it so it could be used, which means putting away the non-shield weapon and drawing the rod, thus wasting a turn.
That is solved by making a wand of Spellsword. Or making it permanent for approximately ~45k gp (if the GM allows). Anyway I was just giving it as a potential option for you to think about.
These are both very problematic suggestions… a strict reading of the spell can lead to the conclusion that a Wand of Spellsword will insert itself into the weapon upon casting since the spell requires you to touch the weapon and as part of casting it inserts a held wand, rod, or staff into the weapon… the wand used to cast is in hand and most likely already in contact with the weapon and therefore would be the most likely object to be merged with the weapon by the spell.
As for the permanency route… ignoring the fact that most spells can’t actually be made permanent in the first place… if a GM were to permit this to be permanencied you would still have to deal with the issue of the wand running out of charges after which you’d have to get the permanency dispelled to remove the now dead wand and pay for another permanent spellsword to insert a new wand… the best workaround to this would be to take a few levels of Wizard and select Bonded Object Wand as your Arcane Bond… unfortunately this would require 5 levels of wizard as per Arcane Bond requiring enough wizard levels to meet the prerequisites to use Craft Wand… but doing this would let you effectively recraft the wand anytime you have enough downtime to do so, which would be beneficial for getting bigger CL wands and more…
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Hmm... the main problem in trying to implement Painful Collision into the build is the massive feat tax involved, requiring Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush. In order to incorporate that, I would have to give up a few feats in the current line-up.
You can definitely build a Magus without intensify, if you step away from the tactic of spamming Shocking Grasp all the time. And the Magus has plenty of other options; see the aforementioned guide.
And I'd advice against Arcane Strike, because you have so many other things to spend swift actions on (such as item abilities, certain arcana, and quickened spells).
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Using Aroden's Spellsword is a good idea, but there are two problems with it as suggested.
1) A wand costs 11,250 for a 50 charge (50 minutes/charge) wand. In addition to the gold cost there's also significant opportunity cost in using it. Pull out the wand and the rod to be merged (two move actions). Spend 1 round (not a full-round) casting the spell. Put away the wand or drop it. You don't want to do all that in combat. So unless you know combat is coming in less than an hour, using a charge from the wand may be "wasted."
2) Crafting a metamagic rod as a second ability of another item is one of those things that is very, very close to abusing the crafting rules in a way that can severely impact action economy. The GM ought to think very carefully before allowing it.
Putting a lesser empower metagmagic rod into your weapon (or shield) with Aroden's Spellsword can be a pretty good tactic. I personally would cast it as an actual magus spell instead of from a wand. At 7th level that's 70 minutes. If you have a lesser extend metamagic rod, that's 140 minutes - or almost 2-1/2 hours. And you're not burning gold every time you use it.
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Faolán, I don't see any discussion on my suggestion of fighting with two shields.
For a magic-using sword-and-board or two-weapon wielder I really like using a quickdraw shield. In combination with the Quick Draw feat, you can don or put away the shield as a free action. Which means you can put away the shield to have a free hand, cast, then put the shield back on without spending any additional actions.
You personally want a big heavy shield on one arm, a quickdraw on the other still lets you cast.
Fighting with two shields has the additional advantage for a Skirnir that when he gets Shielded Spell Combat at 8th level, he can cast with one shield hand and still keep the shield bonus from the other shield (since they don't stack, anyway). At that point you can actually get rid of the quickdraw shield, retrain Quick Draw, and fight with two heavy shields (if you don't plan on needing a hand for anything but casting). Then if you take feats like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization they would apply to both weapons.
Faolán, I don't see any discussion on my suggestion of fighting with two shields.
For a magic-using sword-and-board or two-weapon wielder I really like using a quickdraw shield. In combination with the Quick Draw feat, you can don or put away the shield as a free action. Which means you can put away the shield to have a free hand, cast, then put the shield back on without spending any additional actions.
You personally want a big heavy shield on one arm, a quickdraw on the other still lets you cast.
Fighting with two shields has the additional advantage for a Skirnir that when he gets Shielded Spell Combat at 8th level, he can cast with one shield hand and still keep the shield bonus from the other shield (since they don't stack, anyway). At that point you can actually get rid of the quickdraw shield, retrain Quick Draw, and fight with two heavy shields (if you don't plan on needing a hand for anything but casting). Then if you take feats like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization they would apply to both weapons.
The quickdraw shield is an interesting option to use for the bonded shield that I had not considered (and will probably implement), though one could also just do the same tactic you mentioned with a regular weapon + Quick Draw feat. Sheathe the weapon, cast the spell, redraw as free action, keeping the shield bonus. Regardless, one still needs to spend a move action to unequip the item in order to free up the hand for casting, and expend a feat slot for Quick Draw. The main benefit of unequipping a shield over a weapon is that the former doesn't provoke AoO, but the magus could just 5-foot step away to cast.
To expand on your idea though, a better way for a skirnir to use spell combat with two shields would be to use a buckler in the off-hand to cast the spell, which would allow the character to retain the shield bonus from the shield in their main hand. But you can't bash with a buckler unless you have the Upsetting Shield Style feat, but that also has the added benefit of penalizing the foe's attack rolls if you hit and damage with the buckler, making it a worthwhile tactic.
However, with this character, my intent was to, at later levels, deliver spellstrikes with a keen scimitar or rapier, since that makes touch spells all the more likely to get the extra crit damage. This would be especially good after casting multi-touch spells like Chill Touch, since each crit would deal 2 Str damage. I also might consider Calcific Touch gained through Spell Blending arcana at later levels for 1d4 Dex damage per touch. Moreover, spell combat probably wouldn't be frequently used unless absolutely necessary, preferring to cast any needed spells with the non-shield hand before drawing the scimitar.
I did have Improved Critical for the 11th-level bonus feat, but assuming a keen weapon, I can move Double Slice to that level to get full Str on off-hand shield bashes and take Extra Arcana at 13th, which would let me choose 2 4th-level spells from the wizard list.
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The real benefit of the two-shield style is that you are getting double benefit from feats that apply to a specific weapon. For example, if you take Improved Critical (Heavy shield) you get that on both weapons. Shield Master gets you two cheap weapons instead of one.
A caster who wants to take advantage of that double-dip normally has to either use bucklers or a quickdraw shield. Either of which requires additional feats to make work. That's why the Skirnir has always intrigued me for a two-shield combatant. The 8th-level ability allows you to cast while wielding two heavy shields and doesn't take any extra feats.
Yeah, an 18-20 weapon is definitely going to make your spellstrike hits crit more often. That's the tradeoff. That's why I had originally asked about the Weapon Design rules. It's possible to make a 1d6/18-20 weapon that counts as a shield.
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The quickdraw shield is an interesting option to use for the bonded shield that I had not considered (and will probably implement), though one could also just do the same tactic you mentioned with a regular weapon + Quick Draw feat. Sheathe the weapon, cast the spell, redraw as free action, keeping the shield bonus. Regardless, one still needs to spend a move action to unequip the item in order to free up the hand for casting, and expend a feat slot for Quick Draw.
Ah, but if you have the Quick Draw feat you don't have to spend a move action with the quickdraw shield, that the beauty of it. Put it away as a free action, cast, then put it back on as a free action.
If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.
Umm you don't need a Quick shield for this. All you need is Shielded Mage and maybe something like False Focus or Eschew Materials if you plan to use material components mid combat.
This lets you full attack as normal, or you know actually move around the battlefield.
Also, the only thing you need to deal with drawing/stowing is a glove of storing. Which lets you draw/store as a free action.
The reason they suggested a quick draw shield + quick draw feat is because that route lets you cast and keep your shield at the start & end of every round from level 1. Shielded Mage can’t be taken by the Magus until 4th level at the earliest, and unless your GM lets you delay your 3rd level feat you’ll only get it at 4th through retraining so realistically it’s not until 5th for most. The only part of shielded mage that the Skirnir magus benefits from at this level is use of somatic components, which the archetype will gain innately at level 8 rendering the feat completely useless to the skirnir from that point on. The QuickDraw shield and feat on the otherhand continues to be useful after level 8.
3) Because I know already that they don't want Shielded Mage and were honestly considering cycling the shield is that I suggested Glove of Storing. Based on the way its written you can store an equiped shield and then return it already equiped. The counter to this is if the GM rules that you still have to don the shield: But even in that case, you still need the item to store the quickdraw shield to enable full-round actions with quickdraw shield+quick draw due to how stowing items works.
You do NOT “need” a glove of storing to stow a QuickDraw shield and still use a full round action. Read the item description, the only thing required is the quick draw feat. This has been explained multiple times now. QuickDraw shields explicitly allow you to don AND stow them as a FREE ACTION when you have the quick draw feat. There is no relying on your GM to not be a jerk about rulings, no need to buy a 10k gp magic item, just a cheap type of shield and a useful feat. You are just adding needless complication.
That said… a glove of storing on its own isn’t a bad option… just expensive… and if your GM is a stickler about donning the item, then it isn’t as useful… the biggest advantage to glove of storing for skirnir is getting a heavy shield rather than a light shield.
Ultimately QuickDraw Shield + Quick Draw feat and Glove of Storing + ANY shield results in the exact same functionality… you stow your shield as a free action at the start of your turn, full round action whatever, then don it again at the end of your turn as another free action. Two ways to accomplish the exact same effect.
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Umm you don't need a Quick shield for this. All you need is Shielded Mage and maybe something like False Focus or Eschew Materials if you plan to use material components mid combat.
I don't think I'd say "all you need." Shielded Mage has a prerequisite feat of its own (Shield Focus) in addition to the BAB +3 requirement. Quick draw just has a BAB +1 prereq (which means it can be taken at level 3 by the magus).
Also, the only thing you need to deal with drawing/stowing is a glove of storing. Which lets you draw/store as a free action.
Which is a pretty expensive item that takes up your hands slot. By the time our hypothetical magus is able to afford the glove, he will have Shielded Spell Combat.
Again: The premise of my suggestion is that IF you feel that in combat you won't need to use a hand for anything other than somatic components, two shields is a great build for a skirnir. You can even use two heavy shields at 8th level. Before that point, a quickdraw shield is the cheapest way of accomplishing the goal.
Assuming I was going to play a skirnir with these stats who wanted a heavy steel shield, my progression would probably look something like this.
Traits: Shield Trained, XXXXX
Start off with a bonded buckler. Do not pay for any enhancements to the buckler, because you will be changing the bond later. Fight with a regular weapon.
1. Two-Weapon Fighting
3. Quick Draw
Arcane Accuracy
Change bond to a (mithral) heavy steel shield. This is your permanent bonded shield, so go ahead and enchant it as you want. Don't forget bonded item crafting at 5th level! Fight with heavy steel on one hand and quickdraw shield in the other. Don't pay to enchant the quickdraw.
5. Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash (magus bonus feat)
6. Enduring Blade
7. Double Slice
8. Retrain Quick Draw to Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Replace quickdraw shield with another heavy steel shield now that you can use your bonded shield hand for somatic components. You now have your career-long weapons/shields, so enchant to your heart's content.
9. Intensified Spell
Ghost Blade
11. Weapon Focus (heavy steel shield), Improved Critical (heavy steel shield) (magus bonus feat)
12. Hasted Assault
13. Shield Slam
15. Shield Master
Bane Blade
17. Bashing Finish, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (magus bonus feat)
It's a feat-heavy build, so this is one of the cases where if you were human it would be a big advantage. That extra feat can be used to take Improved Shield Bash at 1st level. Which not only lets you start keeping your AC bonus sooner, it also lets you move Double Slice and Intensified Spell a couple levels earlier each and frees up the 9th level Feat for something else (maybe Weapon Focus and take Greater Weapon Focus at 11). Not to mention the human FCB (1/4 of an arcane pool point) is pretty nice.