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Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Novem wrote:
It's important for the health of the overall game. I'm not being unrealistic, there are indie studios much smaller than Paizo who do much more regular maintenance on their products.

Which companies would those be? Because most TTRPG publishers provide errata even less frequently than Paizo does.


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Gisher wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Gisher wrote:
The Dragon Disciple's feat, Scales of the Dragon, has changed from a +2 status bonus with a +2 Dex cap to a +2 item bonus with a +3 Dex cap and it stacks with the item bonus from Runes. So pretty similar to the CRB change to Mountain Stance.

Expected ( and still a pretty solid feat ).

...
Much improved from my point of view. After Mountain Stance changed, it was clear Scales weren't going to remain a Status bonus and the +4 total was weird. The increase in the Dex cap puts it in line with other options.

It's even better now if you weren't planning on exploiting it. Solid option for dragon stance monks that want to afford charisma for dragon roar. Thematically resonant too.

Liberty's Edge

aobst128 wrote:
Gisher wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Gisher wrote:
The Dragon Disciple's feat, Scales of the Dragon, has changed from a +2 status bonus with a +2 Dex cap to a +2 item bonus with a +3 Dex cap and it stacks with the item bonus from Runes. So pretty similar to the CRB change to Mountain Stance.

Expected ( and still a pretty solid feat ).

...
Much improved from my point of view. After Mountain Stance changed, it was clear Scales weren't going to remain a Status bonus and the +4 total was weird. The increase in the Dex cap puts it in line with other options.
It's even better now if you weren't planning on exploiting it. Solid option for dragon stance monks that want to afford charisma for dragon roar. Thematically resonant too.

I like that it is now another way to achieve the same result (PF2's way of doing things) rather than another bonus type to be added to get over-the-top values (PF1's way).

And I say this as one who built a Kobold Monk specifically to stack it with Drakeheart Mutagen in PFS.


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The dragon disciple fix actually makes me want to play a dragon monk. And that's saying a lot if you read these forums !

Liberty's Edge

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AlastarOG wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:

Too obedient for the liking of Ser Juniper Muzzlemash !!

It changes very little anyways, I commanded him almost every round to gain that massive 1 action 80 ft. move burst. (Fast movement: land power) but it sucks I won't be able to relocate on rounds where I used my 3rd action for something else.

I just enjoy sprite drama.

If you don't command him should he not just rush out of harm's way ?
Does he? I assumed he just stayed in place being a familiar?

Familiars are still minions : "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm."


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AlastarOG wrote:
The dragon disciple fix actually makes me want to play a dragon monk. And that's saying a lot if you read these forums !

Too bad dragon monk doesn't qualify for dragon disciple access without being a kobold, having a dragon barbarian archetype or a dragon sorc archetype (unless the errata changed that too).

Honestly the archetype seems pretty pointless now outside of kobolds. Barbarian doesn't really want anything from it. Sorc doesn't want anything from it.

Kobolds can use it on casters and monks but if you're taking it just to cap AC, sentinel does it at level 2 for non-monks and monks outgrow it at 10 (much like with druid wild shape). Str monks still need three boosts in dex to cap AC so it's not like you can just dump it and boost something else either. The kobold con flaw is just the cherry on top.


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gesalt wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:
The dragon disciple fix actually makes me want to play a dragon monk. And that's saying a lot if you read these forums !

Too bad dragon monk doesn't qualify for dragon disciple access without being a kobold, having a dragon barbarian archetype or a dragon sorc archetype (unless the errata changed that too).

Honestly the archetype seems pretty pointless now outside of kobolds. Barbarian doesn't really want anything from it. Sorc doesn't want anything from it.

Kobolds can use it on casters and monks but if you're taking it just to cap AC, sentinel does it at level 2 for non-monks and monks outgrow it at 10 (much like with druid wild shape). Str monks still need three boosts in dex to cap AC so it's not like you can just dump it and boost something else either. The kobold con flaw is just the cherry on top.

I mean... it may be pointless to those who min/max.... but not if you have a certain character in your head that just seems fun to you...

And I say that not generally being a fan of dragony things aside from kobolds. (Well... the new Battlezoo Dragons book has me rethinking that stance a bit.)


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I kinda like the idea of a dragon monk that's a kobold...

No penalties to strength... Some of the ancestry feats mesh very well...

Good flavor too!


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
gesalt wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:
The dragon disciple fix actually makes me want to play a dragon monk. And that's saying a lot if you read these forums !

Too bad dragon monk doesn't qualify for dragon disciple access without being a kobold, having a dragon barbarian archetype or a dragon sorc archetype (unless the errata changed that too).

Honestly the archetype seems pretty pointless now outside of kobolds. Barbarian doesn't really want anything from it. Sorc doesn't want anything from it.

Kobolds can use it on casters and monks but if you're taking it just to cap AC, sentinel does it at level 2 for non-monks and monks outgrow it at 10 (much like with druid wild shape). Str monks still need three boosts in dex to cap AC so it's not like you can just dump it and boost something else either. The kobold con flaw is just the cherry on top.

While it is a different story for organized play, the Dragon Disciple prerequisites are different than the access. The dedication itself has no requirements other than level.


I've run some numbers for Scales of the Dragon vs. Drakeheart Mutagen.

With Scales, you can get a +2 Item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, and also stack the better of Mage Armor or Runes on top.

With Drakeheart you can get an item bonus from +4 to +7, a +2 Dex bonus, but can't stack Mage Armor or Runes on top.

Assuming that we use the standard progressions from the rulebooks, the Mutagen is better than Scales by +1 at every level from 4th on (except for 17th level where it is +2 ahead).

So the Scales build is basically one behind but doesn't cost any gold, doesn't require actions to activate, never runs out, and doesn't have the mutagen's drawbacks. That all sounds pretty good to me.

The change from a status bonus to an item bonus also means that Scales can now benefit from a Bard's Inspire Defense bonus (or the Wizard's Protective Ward focus spell) like Drakeheart always could.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The way it reads, you should be able to add the item bonuses from armor potency runes, mage armor, and bracers of armor with the Scales bonus.


Thomas Keller wrote:
The way it reads, you should be able to add the item bonuses from armor potency runes, mage armor, and bracers of armor with the Scales bonus.

Yes, that is what it says.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.

That it actually means you can only add the Scales item bonus to one of the listed items.


Thomas Keller wrote:
That it actually means you can only add the Scales item bonus to one of the listed items.

What does that mean?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thomas Keller wrote:

People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.

That it actually means you can only add the Scales item bonus to one of the listed items.

You can add the +2 item bonus from scales with the highest of the following:

- Potency runes on explorer's clothes
- Mage armor
- Bracers of armor


Thomas Keller wrote:
People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.

+2 item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, plus runes is the same as wearing studded leather. How can that be too high?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.
+2 item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, plus runes is the same as wearing studded leather. How can that be too high?

It's not. I meant Scales plus runes plus mage armor plus bracers of armor.


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Thomas Keller wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.
+2 item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, plus runes is the same as wearing studded leather. How can that be too high?
It's not. I meant Scales plus runes plus mage armor plus bracers of armor.

No, you can't do that. Item bonuses don't stack unless they specifically say that they do. You can't stack Runes on your explorer's clothes, runes from your bracers, and mage armor.


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Wow. The order of my posts got really scrambled. I wish they would fix this glitch.


Thomas Keller wrote:
Xethik wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:

People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.

That it actually means you can only add the Scales item bonus to one of the listed items.

You can add the +2 item bonus from scales with the highest of the following:

- Potency runes on explorer's clothes
- Mage armor
- Bracers of armor
It says the item bonus from Scales is cumulative with all of those.

But they aren't cumulative with each other.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Xethik wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:

People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.

That it actually means you can only add the Scales item bonus to one of the listed items.

You can add the +2 item bonus from scales with the highest of the following:

- Potency runes on explorer's clothes
- Mage armor
- Bracers of armor

It says the item bonus from Scales is cumulative with all of those.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.
+2 item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, plus runes is the same as wearing studded leather. How can that be too high?
It's not. I meant Scales plus runes plus mage armor plus bracers of armor.
No, you can't do that. Item bonuses don't stack unless they specifically say that they do. You can't stack Runes on your explorer's clothes, runes from your bracers, and mage armor.

The new feat says they're cumulative. I don't think Bracers have runes.


Gisher wrote:
Avoiding volley without needing access to point-blank shot seems nice, but I'm not clear how you get access to a Daikyu. It's weird that it still lacks the monk trait. I thought it was intended for use with Monastic Archer Stance.

Is it still an advanced weapon? Since Monastic Archer Stance originally reads

Quote:
When you select this feat, you become trained in the longbow, shortbow, and any simple and martial bows with the monk trait. If you gain the expert strikes class feature, your proficiency rank for these weapons increases to expert, and if you gain the master strikes class feature, your proficiency rank for these weapons increases to master.

So it seems that the Daikyu is just for fighters.


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Thomas Keller wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.
+2 item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, plus runes is the same as wearing studded leather. How can that be too high?
It's not. I meant Scales plus runes plus mage armor plus bracers of armor.
No, you can't do that. Item bonuses don't stack unless they specifically say that they do. You can't stack Runes on your explorer's clothes, runes from your bracers, and mage armor.
The new feat says they're cumulative. I don't think Bracers have runes.

Item bonuses only stack if they have text that specifically states that they do. The feat specifies that the item bonus from Scales is cumulative with those other three options. It doesn't say that those three options are cumulative with each other.


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Thomas Keller wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.
+2 item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, plus runes is the same as wearing studded leather. How can that be too high?
It's not. I meant Scales plus runes plus mage armor plus bracers of armor.
No, you can't do that. Item bonuses don't stack unless they specifically say that they do. You can't stack Runes on your explorer's clothes, runes from your bracers, and mage armor.
The new feat says they're cumulative. I don't think Bracers have runes.

The feat is cumulative, but the rest all overwrite each other so you have a calculation that looks like [(bracers, mage armor, runes)keep highest]+[(dex mod,3)keep lowest]+2


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Avoiding volley without needing access to point-blank shot seems nice, but I'm not clear how you get access to a Daikyu. It's weird that it still lacks the monk trait. I thought it was intended for use with Monastic Archer Stance.

Is it still an advanced weapon? Since Monastic Archer Stance originally reads

Quote:
When you select this feat, you become trained in the longbow, shortbow, and any simple and martial bows with the monk trait. If you gain the expert strikes class feature, your proficiency rank for these weapons increases to expert, and if you gain the master strikes class feature, your proficiency rank for these weapons increases to master.
So it seems that the Daikyu is just for fighters.

There are ways to get proficiency, so if it were a monk weapon the stance could work. But you're probably right that it was included with Fighters in mind.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Thomas Keller wrote:
People are telling me you can't do that. That it's gamebreaking to allow that high of an AC.
+2 item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, plus runes is the same as wearing studded leather. How can that be too high?
It's not. I meant Scales plus runes plus mage armor plus bracers of armor.
No, you can't do that. Item bonuses don't stack unless they specifically say that they do. You can't stack Runes on your explorer's clothes, runes from your bracers, and mage armor.
The new feat says they're cumulative. I don't think Bracers have runes.
Item bonuses only stack if they have text that specifically states that they do. The feat specifies that the item bonus from Scales is cumulative with those other three options. It doesn't say that those three options are cumulative with each other.

I always thought cumulative meant added together. If they only meant you could add one of those, they should have wrote "or" instead of "and".


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The Raven Black wrote:

I do not expect a rewrite of a class to come through errata.

In an Unchained book down the line maybe, or PF3.

Alchemist already got a class feat moved into a class feature.

Why not do the same for Witch with Basic Lesson replacing Phase Familiar? That would go a long way to making the Witch competitive with the other 6HP casters.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Xethik wrote:
gesalt wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:
The dragon disciple fix actually makes me want to play a dragon monk. And that's saying a lot if you read these forums !

Too bad dragon monk doesn't qualify for dragon disciple access without being a kobold, having a dragon barbarian archetype or a dragon sorc archetype (unless the errata changed that too).

Honestly the archetype seems pretty pointless now outside of kobolds. Barbarian doesn't really want anything from it. Sorc doesn't want anything from it.

Kobolds can use it on casters and monks but if you're taking it just to cap AC, sentinel does it at level 2 for non-monks and monks outgrow it at 10 (much like with druid wild shape). Str monks still need three boosts in dex to cap AC so it's not like you can just dump it and boost something else either. The kobold con flaw is just the cherry on top.

While it is a different story for organized play, the Dragon Disciple prerequisites are different than the access. The dedication itself has no requirements other than level.

People make that mistake all the time.


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Gisher wrote:
The Dragon Disciple Dedication has this line added: "You become trained in arcane spell DCs and arcane spell attack rolls."

Nice


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The updated errata ie the FAQ is up now BTW.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
Gisher wrote:
The Dragon Disciple Dedication has this line added: "You become trained in arcane spell DCs and arcane spell attack rolls."
Nice

Kind of. It could also potentially be a nerf to non-arcane casters who take dragon's breath.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Avoiding volley without needing access to point-blank shot seems nice, but I'm not clear how you get access to a Daikyu. It's weird that it still lacks the monk trait. I thought it was intended for use with Monastic Archer Stance.

Is it still an advanced weapon? Since Monastic Archer Stance originally reads

Quote:
When you select this feat, you become trained in the longbow, shortbow, and any simple and martial bows with the monk trait. If you gain the expert strikes class feature, your proficiency rank for these weapons increases to expert, and if you gain the master strikes class feature, your proficiency rank for these weapons increases to master.
So it seems that the Daikyu is just for fighters.
There are ways to get proficiency, so if it were a monk weapon the stance could work. But you're probably right that it was included with Fighters in mind.

I am ill-convinced that the Daikyu wasn't made with Monastic Archer in mind; otherwise, the whole line about bows with the Monk Trait becomes completely moot, because there simply aren't any. Seems like a huge oversight or lack of communication somewhere. As it stands, even with Propulsive Trait, there is hardly anything that makes it an Advanced Weapon imo.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ly'ualdre wrote:
I am ill-convinced that the Daikyu wasn't made with Monastic Archer in mind; otherwise, the whole line about bows with the Monk Trait becomes completely moot, because there simply aren't any.

Wouldn't be the first time. "Access to all uncommon kobold snares" comes to mind.

I think it's just as reasonable the Daikyu was just a weird, not very well thought out weapon between its poor stats and weird rules.

Liberty's Edge

Gisher wrote:

I've run some numbers for Scales of the Dragon vs. Drakeheart Mutagen.

With Scales, you can get a +2 Item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, and also stack the better of Mage Armor or Runes on top.

With Drakeheart you can get an item bonus from +4 to +7, a +2 Dex bonus, but can't stack Mage Armor or Runes on top.

Assuming that we use the standard progressions from the rulebooks, the Mutagen is better than Scales by +1 at every level from 4th on (except for 17th level where it is +2 ahead).

So the Scales build is basically one behind but doesn't cost any gold, doesn't require actions to activate, never runs out, and doesn't have the mutagen's drawbacks. That all sounds pretty good to me.

The change from a status bonus to an item bonus also means that Scales can now benefit from a Bard's Inspire Defense bonus (or the Wizard's Protective Ward focus spell) like Drakeheart always could.

Why do people always forget about the increased Resistance ? Scales give you the equivalent of 6 levels as far as Resistance is concerned.

Take a dragon that provides Resistance to Piercing, which is the most common damage type in the game, and you become much more durable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Squiggit wrote:
Ly'ualdre wrote:
I am ill-convinced that the Daikyu wasn't made with Monastic Archer in mind; otherwise, the whole line about bows with the Monk Trait becomes completely moot, because there simply aren't any.

Wouldn't be the first time. "Access to all uncommon kobold snares" comes to mind.

I think it's just as reasonable the Daikyu was just a weird, not very well thought out weapon between its poor stats and weird rules.

I mean, the name alone was weird. Daikyu implies the existence of the smaller Hankyu. Always felt they should have simply called it Yumi. But that's just me being picky.

Imo, it needs to have the Monk Trait and made Martial -or- Monk and Agile and remain Advanced maybe? Idk. I have similar issues with the Hongali Hornbow. It needs something.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
Gisher wrote:

I've run some numbers for Scales of the Dragon vs. Drakeheart Mutagen.

With Scales, you can get a +2 Item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, and also stack the better of Mage Armor or Runes on top.

With Drakeheart you can get an item bonus from +4 to +7, a +2 Dex bonus, but can't stack Mage Armor or Runes on top.

Assuming that we use the standard progressions from the rulebooks, the Mutagen is better than Scales by +1 at every level from 4th on (except for 17th level where it is +2 ahead).

So the Scales build is basically one behind but doesn't cost any gold, doesn't require actions to activate, never runs out, and doesn't have the mutagen's drawbacks. That all sounds pretty good to me.

The change from a status bonus to an item bonus also means that Scales can now benefit from a Bard's Inspire Defense bonus (or the Wizard's Protective Ward focus spell) like Drakeheart always could.

Why do people always forget about the increased Resistance ? Scales give you the equivalent of 6 levels as far as Resistance is concerned.

Take a dragon that provides Resistance to Piercing, which is the most common damage type in the game, and you become much more durable.

Yeah, I actually took it on an armor wearer for this exact reason. Standing in the middle of swarms and laughing because they can't break through your DR is hilarious. Though a lot of people aren't aware piercing and bludgeoning are options now.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Gisher wrote:

I've run some numbers for Scales of the Dragon vs. Drakeheart Mutagen.

With Scales, you can get a +2 Item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, and also stack the better of Mage Armor or Runes on top.

With Drakeheart you can get an item bonus from +4 to +7, a +2 Dex bonus, but can't stack Mage Armor or Runes on top.

Assuming that we use the standard progressions from the rulebooks, the Mutagen is better than Scales by +1 at every level from 4th on (except for 17th level where it is +2 ahead).

So the Scales build is basically one behind but doesn't cost any gold, doesn't require actions to activate, never runs out, and doesn't have the mutagen's drawbacks. That all sounds pretty good to me.

The change from a status bonus to an item bonus also means that Scales can now benefit from a Bard's Inspire Defense bonus (or the Wizard's Protective Ward focus spell) like Drakeheart always could.

Why do people always forget about the increased Resistance ? Scales give you the equivalent of 6 levels as far as Resistance is concerned.

Take a dragon that provides Resistance to Piercing, which is the most common damage type in the game, and you become much more durable.

Yeah, I actually took it on an armor wearer for this exact reason. Standing in the middle of swarms and laughing because they can't break through your DR is hilarious. Though a lot of people aren't aware piercing and bludgeoning are options now.

To be fair, the options not specifically mentioned in the APG fall under a "GM may allow you to.." clause, so I am not actually sure what the ruling for organized play is there.


So, this is annoying. I use both EBookDroid and Adobe on my tablet so I can have two books open at once. The new PDF of the APG has rendering problems in EBookDroid that the old one does not. The text in certain areas is washed out, almost identical to the background colour.

Thankfully, it renders fine in Adobe but I had gotten into the habit of having the APG open in EBookDroid...

Liberty's Edge

Xethik wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Gisher wrote:

I've run some numbers for Scales of the Dragon vs. Drakeheart Mutagen.

With Scales, you can get a +2 Item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, and also stack the better of Mage Armor or Runes on top.

With Drakeheart you can get an item bonus from +4 to +7, a +2 Dex bonus, but can't stack Mage Armor or Runes on top.

Assuming that we use the standard progressions from the rulebooks, the Mutagen is better than Scales by +1 at every level from 4th on (except for 17th level where it is +2 ahead).

So the Scales build is basically one behind but doesn't cost any gold, doesn't require actions to activate, never runs out, and doesn't have the mutagen's drawbacks. That all sounds pretty good to me.

The change from a status bonus to an item bonus also means that Scales can now benefit from a Bard's Inspire Defense bonus (or the Wizard's Protective Ward focus spell) like Drakeheart always could.

Why do people always forget about the increased Resistance ? Scales give you the equivalent of 6 levels as far as Resistance is concerned.

Take a dragon that provides Resistance to Piercing, which is the most common damage type in the game, and you become much more durable.

Yeah, I actually took it on an armor wearer for this exact reason. Standing in the middle of swarms and laughing because they can't break through your DR is hilarious. Though a lot of people aren't aware piercing and bludgeoning are options now.
To be fair, the options not specifically mentioned in the APG fall under a "GM may allow you to.." clause, so I am not actually sure what the ruling for organized play is there.

ON AoN, there are Piercing and Bludgeoning dragons on the table that does not need GM permission.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
Take a dragon that provides Resistance to Piercing, which is the most common damage type in the game, and you become much more durable.

Note that those Mwangi dragon are not included in Dragon Disciple. Other dragons MAY be allowed. I don't allow piercing dragons because I am pretty sure the writers of the mwangi expanse forgot other dragon related things give resists based on the damage type they do, unlike the archetype in Mwangi.

Since permanent physical resists are super rare and way better than elemental.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:


ON AoN, there are Piercing and Bludgeoning dragons on the table that does not need GM permission.

AoN is not the source. They just fill stuff in. The actual dedication does not list them. If it is too good too be true...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
Xethik wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Gisher wrote:

I've run some numbers for Scales of the Dragon vs. Drakeheart Mutagen.

With Scales, you can get a +2 Item bonus, +3 Dex bonus, and also stack the better of Mage Armor or Runes on top.

With Drakeheart you can get an item bonus from +4 to +7, a +2 Dex bonus, but can't stack Mage Armor or Runes on top.

Assuming that we use the standard progressions from the rulebooks, the Mutagen is better than Scales by +1 at every level from 4th on (except for 17th level where it is +2 ahead).

So the Scales build is basically one behind but doesn't cost any gold, doesn't require actions to activate, never runs out, and doesn't have the mutagen's drawbacks. That all sounds pretty good to me.

The change from a status bonus to an item bonus also means that Scales can now benefit from a Bard's Inspire Defense bonus (or the Wizard's Protective Ward focus spell) like Drakeheart always could.

Why do people always forget about the increased Resistance ? Scales give you the equivalent of 6 levels as far as Resistance is concerned.

Take a dragon that provides Resistance to Piercing, which is the most common damage type in the game, and you become much more durable.

Yeah, I actually took it on an armor wearer for this exact reason. Standing in the middle of swarms and laughing because they can't break through your DR is hilarious. Though a lot of people aren't aware piercing and bludgeoning are options now.
To be fair, the options not specifically mentioned in the APG fall under a "GM may allow you to.." clause, so I am not actually sure what the ruling for organized play is there.
ON AoN, there are Piercing and Bludgeoning dragons on the table that does not need GM permission.

The confusion is due to Dragon Disciple Dedication having a specific list of dragons and then stating "The GM may allow you to choose a dragon type not listed below..."

Liberty's Edge

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:


ON AoN, there are Piercing and Bludgeoning dragons on the table that does not need GM permission.
AoN is not the source. They just fill stuff in. The actual dedication does not list them. If it is too good too be true...

I guess AoN will update the table based on the APG errata to avoid mistakes then.

Very strange though since you can be a Wyrmblessed Sorcerer of the Mwangi Bloodlines and then Dragon Disciple forces you to choose the same type of dragon.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

My only wish is to not create another full PDF-diff Google Doc of the two printings. I saw Tikael posted most of one on Reddit that was great, but a complete version is invaluable to any community project that involves a compendium.


I mean, the GM was always within their right to say "you can't pick a [whatever] dragon for this campaign" along the same lines that you couldn't be a Hobgoblin in Ironfang Invasion and you can't be Good in Blood Lords.

The thing about "cumulative" and runes with Dragon Scales, I think is basically that you can benefit from Runes like any other character, but you're not inscribing them on your actual scales, you're putting them on your clothes or on your bracers.


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Gisher wrote:

The change from a status bonus to an item bonus also means that Scales can now benefit from a Bard's Inspire Defense bonus (or the Wizard's Protective Ward focus spell) like Drakeheart always could.

Also worth noting for draconic blooded sorcerers they get to add their blood magic +1 status bonus to their own AC again with SotD. Before as a status bonus, that blood magic ability became only good to toss onto someone else assuming they could benefit.


Gisher wrote:
Avoiding volley without needing access to point-blank shot seems nice, but I'm not clear how you get access to a Daikyu.

The Advanced Bow Training feat: "You gain proficiency with all advanced bows as if they were martial weapons in the bow weapon group."

keftiu wrote:
That's fun; you take a Composite Longbow and trade out losing Deadly d10 for not having to deal with Volley at all. I don't know if it's a great trade (is Volley a big deal? I don't feel like I've ever heard about it), but at least the Daikyu has an identity now.

Take a Starlit Span magus once: a longbow is a 50' range with a volley of 30', a shortbow is a range of 30' and a Daikyu is a range of 40'. IMO, that extra 10' compared to the shortbow would often mean you're an extra action away from an enemy and the weird range, out of volley 35'-50', for the longbow means a lot of moving around to hit the sweet spot to avoid the -2. Seems worth it to me.

Now on another class... +20' range over the comp shortbow can be worth it depending on the table: it's much more valuable in a game with lots of expansive outdoor areas than it is in one that's underground and most fights are close quarters.


graystone wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Avoiding volley without needing access to point-blank shot seems nice, but I'm not clear how you get access to a Daikyu.
The Advanced Bow Training feat: "You gain proficiency with all advanced bows as if they were martial weapons in the bow weapon group."

That grants proficiency, but not access.


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Gisher wrote:
graystone wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Avoiding volley without needing access to point-blank shot seems nice, but I'm not clear how you get access to a Daikyu.
The Advanced Bow Training feat: "You gain proficiency with all advanced bows as if they were martial weapons in the bow weapon group."
That grants proficiency, but not access.

Ah... You did say access.

I'd say Unconventional Weaponry: "You've familiarized yourself with a particular weapon, potentially from another ancestry or culture." That or being from Tian Xia.

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